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You're still not getting it. Stephen and Genesis are accounts of two different things and you're trying to make them be the same.You see it in the text. And you must involve some unknown oral tradition or some special God´s inspiration to get 75 for Stephen.
My "theory" is simplier, thats why I think its the true one
So, what was the perfect preserved text for the generation that died in 1610 in England?
Tell me Trofimus what is being counted in Genesis 46? The number of people who came with Jacob to Egypt or the number of Jacobs children that were in Egypt after Jacob came to Egypt?
LXX says Jacobs descendants numbered 75 because LXX has Joseph with 9 kids instead of 2. That's why I asked if there are any other places that say Joseph had 9 kids.
Well, in LXX its very simple and clear:
"And all the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, who came out of his loins, besides the wives of the sons of Jacob, all the souls were sixty-six.
And the sons of Joseph, who were born to him in the land of Egypt, were nine souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob who came with Joseph into Egypt, were seventy-five souls."
66 came to Egypt + 9 sons of Joseph already in Egypt = 75 total.
----
When I read the text in MSS version, I am confused a little:
"The total number of Jacob’s direct descendants who went with him to Egypt, not counting his sons’ wives, was sixty-six.
In addition, Joseph had two sons who were born in Egypt. So altogether, there were seventy members of Jacob’s family in the land of Egypt."
66 came to Egypt + 2 sons of Joseph already in Egypt = 70 total (which is not true).
Is not the explanation that Stephen simply used the LXX reading much clearer than to bring oral tradition, inspiration etc in the discussion?
BTW what was the perfect preserved text for the generation who died in 1610 in England?
God has promised to preserve His words, not in every language or to every people, but in such a way as they would be known by many of God's believing people. The Lord Jesus said:
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matthew 24:35
God never promised that every nation or individual would have a perfect Bible, but He did promise to preserve His pure, complete and 100% true words somewhere on this earth.
"Seek ye out of the Book of the LORD and read..." Isaiah 34:16.
God is under no obligation to give equal light or gifts to all people. There was a period of time when for about 2000 years only one small nation had the true and pure words of God.
Psalms 147:19-20 says: "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation; and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD."
God will hold us accountable for the light He has been pleased to give us. We who have the preserved and inerrant words of God in the English language of the King James Bible will be held far more accountable for what we have done with this book than those who cannot read English.
"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48
So where on this Earth were His Words preserved before KJV? At least one example.
Ok you've go that part now. Genesis in both version gives the total number of Jacobs son's in Egypt. Both are not giving the total number that came with Jacob to Egypt... some were already in Egypt.
Now look at Acts. Is Stephen giving the total number of Jacob's sons that were in Egypt or is he giving the total number of people who CAME with Jacob to Egypt?
"After this, Joseph sent for his father Jacob and his whole family, seventy-five in all."
Its hard to say, Stephen is obviously making shortcuts in his history summary, so the beginning of his sentence is about Joseph sending for his father and then he encloses his sentence with the number 75.
I see your point, it seems he is talking about the number of incoming people. But where would he get the number 75? Genesis says 66 were incoming.
The only place where 75 is, is LXX.
BTW can you explain to me the MSS logic, that 66+2 = 70?
I believe they were being preserved through the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts used to translate the AV1611 and several other English translations of the Bible had been produced before the King James Bible of 1611 became the mainstay for 400 years. When the King James translators sat at their desks to do their translation work they were also provided with some of those previous translations. In fact the translators had loose-leaf copies of each of the following:
1. Tyndale’s translation (1525)
2. The Coverdale Bible (1535)
3. The Matthews Bible (1537)
4. The Great Bible (1539)
5. The Geneva Bible (1560)
6. The Bishops Bible (1568)
But the entirety of Scripture would not be perfect, whole, completed until the AV1611.
OK, we have a problem, then. KJV text differs from the Greek manuscripts. So how could two preserved versions be different?
I dont get it. You said every generation has the perfect Words of God.
We don't know where he got 75 five from and it doesn't matter where it comes from because it doesn't have to match Genesis 46 because Genesis 46 is talking about something completely different.
Here's where MSS gets 70:
66 - came with Jacob to Egypt.
+
1 - Joseph was already in Egypt.
+
2 - Joseph's 2 kids that were already in Egypt.
All that equals 69 souls of the house of Jacob and here's where I got hung up earlier... why 69. Then it hit me that Jacob is the house of Jacob... Jacob makes 70 souls of the house of Jacob that were in Egypt at that time.
It only differs from the corrupted manuscripts that are used for all other versions.
And no, I did not say that every generation had a perfect Bible, quite the opposite. Every generation had the gospel. God was, however, preserving His words. This does not mean every generation would have a perfect Bible.
B
BeyondET
Guest
Maybe somewhere on earth it's preserved, but preserved through the English language of the King James Version written to replace the then popular bishops bible of the Church of England for the Church of England directed instructions to translate scripture to keep the theme of the church as king by the King James.
there is no proof it's preserved in KJV quite frankly a foolish statement.
It does matter, according to me... because it was Stephen proving to other Jews that Jesus is the Christ. He would not want to make up numbers like that, before his almost certain death.
To your MSS explanation - ok, it makes sense. But this explanation does not make sense for LXX version. LXX simply adds 66 and 9. These two sources are really very different.
So you can explain MSS number, but you dont know where Stephen got 75.
I can explain where Stephen got 75, but I admit that he would have to make some shorcut in his sentence.
LXX differs from MSS in many places.
LXX - they pierced my hands and feet
MSS - they like a lion my hands and feet
LXX - virgin will have a son
MSS - girl will have a son
etc etc.
There is still a disprepancy with the number 75 Stephen used. This number can be found in LXX only and very, very close to the place Stephen is talking about. And you have no provable explanation where else would he get such number.
B
BeyondET
Guest
Over a Thousand years the church had denied people access to scripture.
The Council of Nicaea called by the Emperor Constantine met in 325 C.E. to establish a unified Catholic Church. At that point no universally sanctioned Scriptures or Christian Bible existed. Various churches and officials adopted different texts and gospels. That’s why the Council of Hippo sanctioned 27 books for the New Testament in 393 C.E. Four years later the Council of Cartage confirmed the same 27 books as the authoritative Scriptures of the Church.
Wouldn’t you assume that the newly established Church would want its devotees to immerse themselves in the sanctioned New Testament, especially since the Church went to great lengths to eliminate competing Gospels? And wouldn’t the best way of spreading the “good news” be to ensure that every Christian had direct access to the Bible?
That’s not what happened. The Church actually discouraged the populace from reading the Bible on their own — a policy that intensified through the Middle Ages and later, with the addition of a prohibition forbidding translation of the Bible into native languages.
Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.”
Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned...”
Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.”
Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.
The Council of Nicaea called by the Emperor Constantine met in 325 C.E. to establish a unified Catholic Church. At that point no universally sanctioned Scriptures or Christian Bible existed. Various churches and officials adopted different texts and gospels. That’s why the Council of Hippo sanctioned 27 books for the New Testament in 393 C.E. Four years later the Council of Cartage confirmed the same 27 books as the authoritative Scriptures of the Church.
Wouldn’t you assume that the newly established Church would want its devotees to immerse themselves in the sanctioned New Testament, especially since the Church went to great lengths to eliminate competing Gospels? And wouldn’t the best way of spreading the “good news” be to ensure that every Christian had direct access to the Bible?
That’s not what happened. The Church actually discouraged the populace from reading the Bible on their own — a policy that intensified through the Middle Ages and later, with the addition of a prohibition forbidding translation of the Bible into native languages.
Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.”
Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned...”
Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.”
Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.