Which is a "Doctrine of Devils" - Universalism or Eternal Damnationism?

[timf]

This is an interesting subject, but one that arouses deep passion. There are several things to consider when reflecting on this subject. Hopefully one can consider possibilities without animosity.

The word often translated eternal (aiōnios) means "age" and like the English word "tall" has a variable meaning from context (both a man and a mountain can be tall)

There are numerous verses that refer to the unsaved as perishing, to be destroyed, and the 'second death". It might be that those who are unsaved do not suffer torment for an infinite eternity. This is given further support when one considers that the gift of God is eternal life, why then would this "gift" be given to the unsaved.

It may be that the unsaved suffer in torment (like the rich man in Luke 16). It is interesting that the torment he feels is the Greek word basanos which is used for a touchstone (to determine the purity of a gold coin) as well as the torture applied to Greek slaves in a court proceeding to verify the truth of testimony. In both instances the "basanos" is to determine truth. It maybe that the unsaved in Hades suffer torment as long as they resist truth. this could explain how everyone comes to bow the knee and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

We do know from Revelation that there will be a final judgement of the unsaved and that they will be judged for their works. No mention is made to any reward or punishment as a result of this judgement.
However, being thrown into the lake of fire is called the second death.

 

[Evmur]

Which might help to explain why the OP was banned...................

Perhaps it was trolling the idea that God will torture anybody ...

 

[Evmur]

that is not correct. Jesus is the authority on Hell and the context of its eternal condition for those who go there. Which Jesus said before the founding of the RCC.

... no escaping it.

 

[Journeyman]

man is also left without excuse now because the gospel is available and preached in the world God has given us a choice to be saved now , he has also repeatedly warned mankind about sin , death and damnation he’s warned us about hell and promised us heaven made the way and told us to believe and follow and be saved

God has never promised to ignore our sin , but has always warned us we’re sin leads us

universalism claims the entire universe including Satan will be redeemed and saved …. This is undeniably false or Gods word has it all wrong

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s plain but many can’t hear it so we hear it and say “ that doesn’t say what it says it’s not gonna be that way “ we’re kicking against the thorns and pricks when we hear what the lord said and reject it and take about her path in understanding

He opens that part saying “ when I return all nations of People are going to be gathered before me and seperated to the right and left those on the right will inherit the kingdom those on the left will be cast into the everlasting fire prepared for Satan and his angels.

in the beginning God seperated light and dark , good and evil

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good:

and God divided the light from the darkness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Man let the darkness in and press it through the world corrupting the earth with evil

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6, 11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now good and evil are both throughout creation and so terrible crimes happen to good decent people because good and evil can’t coexist peacefully and fruitfully.

evil people pursuing the knowledge of evil do evil things and often good people are victims reaching out to others to do a good deed and help can lead to danger in a world like this that’s just one example but eternity is going to be different there’s a division of good and evil when we leave this world a seperation

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see like in the beginning again good and evil is made seperate Gods people and the devils people seperated again after we die to this place of evil and good mixed in this world where evil often appears to win d good often appears to suffer

in the next place those who caused suffering in this world will suffer then and those who suffered in this life will know peace then

martyrs for instance seemed to have lost thier earthly Life to evil , but then they entered eternity as faithful children of God and have won the victory the Bible talks about that is beyond death to this terrible world

To think a man who does great evil and never gets caught on earth and loves a long life , never has to pay for the wicked things he’s done is to not understand Gods character from the beginning to the end

From the ot to new

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

People who do evil and don’t repent and continue in those things have a debt to pay they don’t just Rest In Peace d never wake up or disappear God will make all things just

many times evil people live prosperous long lives on earth they then have to answer to God for all they have done and he’s sworn to repay many times I myself believe there’s a place none of us want to go

and also I believe some can be redeemed at the judgement

after that happens I’m not sure if they paid in hell And then die in the lake of fire ? Or if the lake of fire is thier oayment which seems to be the case because they are judged after they die they are raised up and then judged by thier deeds and then some sre cast into the lake of fire as a result
Of thier deeds

even people in hell
Now and since this began are going to be raised to face jidgement but did they pay in hell ? And now repent ? And some are saved ? It also seems to suggest u in revelation.

I believe repentance is only offered before people die,

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, Heb.9:27

Judgment is before our Lord, who is,

a consuming fire. Heb.12:29

I believe the lake of fire isn't a place. It's describing the effect the presence our Savior has on all evil. Like when God appeared to Israel,

Now Mount Sinai was completely covered with smoke because the LORD had descended on it in fire Exo.19:18

Who among us can coexist with destructive fire? Who among us can coexist with unquenchable fire?' The one who lives uprightly and speaks honestly Isa.33:14-15

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I believe repentance is only offered before people die,

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, Heb.9:27

Judgment is before our Lord, who is,

a consuming fire. Heb.12:29

I believe the lake of fire isn't a place. It's describing the effect the presence our Savior has on all evil. Like when God appeared to Israel,

Now Mount Sinai was completely covered with smoke because the LORD had descended on it in fire Exo.19:18

Who among us can coexist with destructive fire? Who among us can coexist with unquenchable fire?' The one who lives uprightly and speaks honestly Isa.33:14-15

“I believe repentance is only offered before people die,

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, Heb.9:27



Yes all have to die once our earthly impending death and then we are judged after we die

I don’t know honestly I know Jesus preached the gospel to the spirits people who had been dead for thousands of years

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬

so we know that these were the disobedient people in Noah’s day , and we know Jesus went into the spiritual prison where the y are held and preached to them

my point is not that they can repent later , but that Jesus preaching to them after they had already lived and died in disobedience , that opens up the possibility of things none of us can actually know that may occur after this life

I pretty much agree with your thought about it , my point is also possible that Jesus preached the gospel to them and they heard it and repented

consider what about a Muslim child born in a Muslim country who never is allowed to even hear the gospel , before they die

will or can they then be judged without having been made aware of the gospel ? Maybe like those from Noah’s day who didn’t hear maybe Jesus still preaches the gospel to some after this life and maybe some cceptmit when they here it


that’s all I’m saying brother it’s very possible we don’t know as much as we think we do about eternity

 

[timf]

Is eternity the end of time or time unending?

 

[Journeyman]

“I believe repentance is only offered before people die,

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, Heb.9:27



Yes all have to die once our earthly impending death and then we are judged after we die

I don’t know honestly I know Jesus preached the gospel to the spirits people who had been dead for thousands of years

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬

so we know that these were the disobedient people in Noah’s day , and we know Jesus went into the spiritual prison where the y are held and preached to them

my point is not that they can repent later , but that Jesus preaching to them after they had already lived and died in disobedience , that opens up the possibility of things none of us can actually know that may occur after this life

I pretty much agree with your thought about it , my point is also possible that Jesus preached the gospel to them and they heard it and repented

consider what about a Muslim child born in a Muslim country who never is allowed to even hear the gospel , before they die

will or can they then be judged without having been made aware of the gospel ? Maybe like those from Noah’s day who didn’t hear maybe Jesus still preaches the gospel to some after this life and maybe some cceptmit when they here it

that’s all I’m saying brother it’s very possible we don’t know as much as we think we do about eternity

Well bro, 1Pet.3 doesn't mean Jesus preached to people after they died. It means by the Spirit, he preached to people through Noah before the flood. They're imprisoned by death now, awaiting judgment.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well bro, 1Pet.3 doesn't mean Jesus preached to people after they died. It means by the Spirit, he preached to people through Noah before the flood. They're imprisoned by death now, awaiting judgment.

“bro, 1Pet.3 doesn't mean Jesus preached to people after they died”

are you sure though it doesn’t just say what it says ? So can I ask does it say it if we look at the context of just what it says alone just considering what Peter has written ?

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,

being put to death in the flesh, but quickened ( made alive ) by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

( note he shifts back to present )


The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

consider that when Jesus raised up to life , so did many who had died before hand in the Old Testament they have already risen

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬

do you think this helps in any way with understanding about the resurrection ?

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

….So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

…And as we have borne the image of the earthy,( while we lived on earth ) we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. ( in eternity )

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 42, 44, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

spiral beings have many times appeared and even walked Among people a few thoughts are the angels who entered Sodom and Gomorrah , or the appearance of God in the form of three men as one to Abraham , they actually are food d had appeared to a man Abraham a men .

but God is a spirit

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he became a man and loved among us in the flesh and was glorified in the spirit and now dwells in the heavenly places the same who once lived as a man in earth , now lives in the heavens but he’s also able to appear on earthly form

remember how he lifted up and eventually just disappears in the end of the gospel , but returns later to convert and appoint Paul in a glorified form ? To bright to see that he does blind but yet those with Paul didn’t see him ?

he’s spiritual he’s beyond the flesh and blood he partook of flesh and blood to save us from it and restore our spiritual lives which are headed for the second death at jidgement unless we repent and believe

our bodies we live in now are part of this creation made for the life we live now it’s the body appointed to death but our spiritual body gets judged after our flesh dies the resurrection is the raising of the spiritual body after death

it can happen the day of death or can happen when Jesus returns

this guys spiritual body was with Jesus when he died he just left the body of flesh and went to the sporitual
Kingdom of heaven

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Others enter hell after they die like the rich man and Lazarus one ends up in a peaceful place after death but thier body is dead and buried thoer spiritual body is what is seen alive and either in heaven or hell

Some never enter death because they die to the flesh through repentance d live by the spirit we can live on or die and have to wait

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our body is appointed to death but not our life within our spirit, anyways brother sorry for the length and always consider your opinions and thoughts important .

we all Just have what we believe to be the truth discussion is good God bless and keep you always and forever

 

[Journeyman]

“bro, 1Pet.3 doesn't mean Jesus preached to people after they died”

are you sure though it doesn’t just say what it says ? So can I ask does it say it if we look at the context of just what it says alone just considering what Peter has written ?

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,

being put to death in the flesh, but quickened ( made alive ) by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

( note he shifts back to present )


The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

consider that when Jesus raised up to life , so did many who had died before hand in the Old Testament they have already risen

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬

do you think this helps in any way with understanding about the resurrection ?

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

….So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

…And as we have borne the image of the earthy,( while we lived on earth ) we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. ( in eternity )

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 42, 44, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

spiral beings have many times appeared and even walked Among people a few thoughts are the angels who entered Sodom and Gomorrah , or the appearance of God in the form of three men as one to Abraham , they actually are food d had appeared to a man Abraham a men .

but God is a spirit

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he became a man and loved among us in the flesh and was glorified in the spirit and now dwells in the heavenly places the same who once lived as a man in earth , now lives in the heavens but he’s also able to appear on earthly form

remember how he lifted up and eventually just disappears in the end of the gospel , but returns later to convert and appoint Paul in a glorified form ? To bright to see that he does blind but yet those with Paul didn’t see him ?

he’s spiritual he’s beyond the flesh and blood he partook of flesh and blood to save us from it and restore our spiritual lives which are headed for the second death at jidgement unless we repent and believe

our bodies we live in now are part of this creation made for the life we live now it’s the body appointed to death but our spiritual body gets judged after our flesh dies the resurrection is the raising of the spiritual body after death

it can happen the day of death or can happen when Jesus returns

this guys spiritual body was with Jesus when he died he just left the body of flesh and went to the sporitual
Kingdom of heaven

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Others enter hell after they die like the rich man and Lazarus one ends up in a peaceful place after death but thier body is dead and buried thoer spiritual body is what is seen alive and either in heaven or hell

Some never enter death because they die to the flesh through repentance d live by the spirit we can live on or die and have to wait

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our body is appointed to death but not our life within our spirit, anyways brother sorry for the length and always consider your opinions and thoughts important .

we all Just have what we believe to be the truth discussion is good God bless and keep you always and forever

You also my brother 😊.
One other possibility is that the people before the flood were prisoners of their own sin, but that God spoke to Noah by his Spirit to set them free. This would also agree with the scriptures that now is the time for salvation, not after the unrepentant die.

 

[TeamSpirit]

it's nice to Christ's cream of the crop. Or a cut above the rest. Want to own it! I Do? Is that is Sin?

 

[peldom10]

Is eternity the end of time or time unending?

Time does not exist in the spiritual world.

 

[Evmur]

“I believe repentance is only offered before people die,

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, Heb.9:27



Yes all have to die once our earthly impending death and then we are judged after we die

I don’t know honestly I know Jesus preached the gospel to the spirits people who had been dead for thousands of years

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬

so we know that these were the disobedient people in Noah’s day , and we know Jesus went into the spiritual prison where the y are held and preached to them

my point is not that they can repent later , but that Jesus preaching to them after they had already lived and died in disobedience , that opens up the possibility of things none of us can actually know that may occur after this life

I pretty much agree with your thought about it , my point is also possible that Jesus preached the gospel to them and they heard it and repented

consider what about a Muslim child born in a Muslim country who never is allowed to even hear the gospel , before they die

will or can they then be judged without having been made aware of the gospel ? Maybe like those from Noah’s day who didn’t hear maybe Jesus still preaches the gospel to some after this life and maybe some cceptmit when they here it


that’s all I’m saying brother it’s very possible we don’t know as much as we think we do about eternity

Yes.