Who are you voting for?

[meecha]

So in other words you were wrong. Hey, just admit it. I make mistakes too sometimes. It's much better if you fess up and say, "Oops, sorry, I misspoke. It's 10%, not 12% or 15%. Sorry."

Umm?? No I am not wrong. One tithe is paid annually at 10%. There are one/ possibly two other tithes paid bi annually at 10%. HOwever it may actually be tri annually.That is 10% every other year....in other words 5% per annum. 10 + 5 =15% per annum max. Or 10+ 3.3 =13.3. Some dispute this and say there are actually 3 tithes.

I don't see how you can reason that, just because our government is not theocratic, and Israel was, it necessarily follows that God does not expect our government to treat its citizens as kindly as He expects a theocratic government to treat its citizens

O wow Grunge. You think government welfare is a "kindness". You really are naive. Welfare is a vote buyer. It works like this. Promise a large section of the population a hand out in return for votes.

You can look it up -- whenever taxes go down, individual support for various non-profit welfare decreases even more, when the need for them goes up. .

Oh really Grunge. I could "look it up"? Where exactly would I look it up and what particular set of stats does this" evidence" use to say the exact opposite of what some other body of "evidence" says.

This is a fact

Ummm...no ..it's an assertion.Asserting something doesn't make it a fact.

The vehicle for aid to the poor is absolutely non-profit institutions. I agree that huge government agencies do not run welfare programs efficiently. However, the funding for these programs MUST be public; there is no other source of funding that can be relied upon

thanks Grunge ...you make my point that your trust is in secular government even though you admit it is inefficient. The early Church started orphanages, schools and hospitals despite state opposition but you don't trust the Church. You don't believe in the power of the Gospel to transform society but you believe in Obama.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Umm?? No I am not wrong. One tithe is paid annually at 10%. There are one/ possibly two other tithes paid bi annually at 10%. HOwever it may actually be tri annually.That is 10% every other year....in other words 5% per annum. 10 + 5 =15% per annum max. Or 10+ 3.3 =13.3. Some dispute this and say there are actually 3 tithes.

Aside from your math being bad, you still haven't provided BCV. Is it really so hard to admit you're wrong?

O wow Grunge. You think government welfare is a "kindness". You really are naive. Welfare is a vote buyer. It works like this. Promise a large section of the population a hand out in return for votes.

I know that often it ends up being used this way. But this is not the purpose of government grants that are given to non-profits.

Out of curiosity, how many non-profits have you worked for? How many years have you worked in the non-profit industry? How many audits of federal non-profit grant programs have you personally overseen? With that vast experience of yours, can you now comment on how government welfare grants are used, what percent are used, generally, towards direct care vs. overhead? Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us with your superiority.

It is possible you have more experience than I do in this area, but highly unlikely. There are maybe a half dozen people in my state who have more first-hand knowledge of how, exactly, the government granting system works -- on federal, state, and local levels. And about the same number of experts in every one of the 50 states, give or take. Sure, you could be one of them. Pray tell, do illuminate for us your inner gnosis of how government grants really work.

Pardon my snarky comments there, but I have seen too much pie-hole-flapping from people such as yourself and other self-proclaimed Christians who talk the talk, and think they know everything, while I watch kids die from lack of funding, because people like YOU keep arguing against tax-supported welfare. If you saw one tenth of the horror I saw, and one tenth of the good government grants can and do provide for these cases, you would zip your lip and hang your head in shame for your words.

Do you really want to argue that helping people in any way possible is NOT what Christ commanded? Seriously? And you call me naive?

If wanting to help people in every possible way makes me a commie, paint me red and set me out to dry. That's what Jesus told me to do, and dangit, I'm going to do it, and anyone who claims to be a Christian should do it, too. If you don't, you're not a Christian. Period, end of story.

Oh really Grunge. I could "look it up"? Where exactly would I look it up and what particular set of stats does this" evidence" use to say the exact opposite of what some other body of "evidence" says.

Well, if you want to provide me with stats that shows the opposite of what I said, I'm all ears (or eyes, as the case may be). I've never seen anything to support the opposing view.

You can actually get the stats pretty easily by looking at tax rates on U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission | Homepage -- they have them dating back to the late 1800s -- and then compare them to charitable giving on any of the several volunteer / charity sites. My favorite is Guidestar (google it .... it's either .com or .org, I forget which), although there are others available. Though, you don't need to do the research yourself. There have been studies done. A simple google search will reveal several economic treatices on the topic, and I didn't see any in the first 2 pages that found any support for the opposing view. Heck, I bet at least half a dozen grad students did their masters theses on the topic. Another source, if your google skills aren't up to snuff, would be the Pew Research Company. Let me know if you can't find anything from those hints, and I'll get some more links for you.

And if you still don't believe me, though I shudder to think this would be a last resort on your part, you could always pray about it, and hear what God has to say about helping others.

 

[meecha]

Aside from your math being bad, you still haven't provided BCV. Is it really so hard to admit you're wrong?

I don't know what bcv is? my maths is bad though

Out of curiosity, how many non-profits have you worked for? How many years have you worked in the non-profit industry?

none

How many audits of federal non-profit grant programs have you personally overseen?

none

With that vast experience of yours, can you now comment on how government welfare grants are used, what percent are used, generally, towards direct care vs. overhead? Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us with your superiority

.

can't comment except to say that accusing me of superiority is unfounded just because I remind you that government welfare is not a kindness.

It is possible you have more experience than I do in this area, but highly unlikely. There are maybe a half dozen people in my state who have more first-hand knowledge of how, exactly, the government granting system works -- on federal, state, and local levels. And about the same number of experts in every one of the 50 states, give or take. Sure, you could be one of them. Pray tell, do illuminate for us your inner gnosis of how government grants really work.

so you, being so connected and all that, know that government welfare is really a kindness?

Pardon my snarky comments there, but I have seen too much pie-hole-flapping from people such as yourself and other self-proclaimed Christians who talk the talk, and think they know everything, while I watch kids die from lack of funding, because people like YOU keep arguing against tax-supported welfare. If you saw one tenth of the horror I saw, and one tenth of the good government grants can and do provide for these cases, you would zip your lip and hang your head in shame for your words.

LOL!! Grunge you are like the lefty fems I remember from college as soon as you aren't winning the argument you go into "outrage" mode and start personal attacks. I bet you own a pair of pink dungarees
you stated that Jesus is a liberal and implied that Jesus would support tax funded welfare. That is nonsense. The Torah does not mandate that the state can take someone's earnings and give it to someone else. That is theft. For the Christian charity is a lifestyle. Taking care of the needs of others is the lifeblood of Christianity. When the state cares for the people from cradle to grave it usurps authority that it does not have. It sets itself up as an idol.

Do you really want to argue that helping people in any way possible is NOT what Christ commanded?

uumm...no.I want to argue that taking someone's money by force is contrary to God's law. I want to argue also that the Gospel has the power to redeem all of society.

Well, if you want to provide me with stats that shows the opposite of what I said, I'm all ears (or eyes, as the case may be). I've never seen anything to support the opposing view.

no Grunge I am not going to spend hours on the web to satisfy you. I am sure you have access to all the stats you need to convince yourself of the correctness of your position. Of course none of them would start with any pre suppositions would they? I could link you to a dozen excellent arguments for the superiority of private charity over government progs but you wouldn't read them because you would object to the presuppositions.

 

[meecha]

OHH BCV sorry



Leviticus 27:30
‘Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S; it is holy to the LORD.

Leviticus 27:31
If, therefore, a man wishes to redeem part of his tithe, he shall add to it one-fifth of it.

Numbers 18:21
“To the sons of Levi, behold, I have given all the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they perform, the service of the tent of meeting.

Numbers 18:24
For the tithe of the sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance; therefore I have said concerning them, ‘ They shall have no inheritance among the sons of Israel.’”

Numbers 18:26
“Moreover, you shall speak to the Levites and say to them, ‘When you take from the sons of Israel the tithe which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then you shall present an offering from it to the LORD, a tithe of the tithe.

Numbers 18:28
So you shall also present an offering to the LORD from your tithes, which you receive from the sons of Israel; and from it you shall give the LORD’S offering to Aaron the priest.

Deuteronomy 12:6
There you shall bring your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the contribution of your hand, your votive offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock.

Deuteronomy 12:11
then it shall come about that the place in which the LORD your God will choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to the LORD.

Deuteronomy 12:17
You are not allowed to eat within your gates the tithe of your grain or new wine or oil, or the firstborn of your herd or flock, or any of your votive offerings which you vow, or your freewill offerings, or the contribution of your hand.
Deuteronomy 14:22
“You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year.

Deuteronomy 14:23
You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.


Deuteronomy 14:28
“ At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.

Deuteronomy 26:12
“ When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Okay, you provided lots of verses, but nothing of what you provided indicated "12-15%." Your quotes support 10%, and for certain instances 11-12%. So I must conclude that either you're really bad at math, or you just don't know how to admit you're wrong.

Leviticus 27:30
‘Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S; it is holy to the LORD.

Okay, here we've got 10%

Leviticus 27:31
If, therefore, a man wishes to redeem part of his tithe, he shall add to it one-fifth of it.

And here we have 12% .... but only for those who "wish to redeem...." whatever that means.

Numbers 18:21
“To the sons of Levi, behold, I have given all the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they perform, the service of the tent of meeting.

10%

Numbers 18:24
For the tithe of the sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance; therefore I have said concerning them, ‘ They shall have no inheritance among the sons of Israel.’”

No mention of what %

Numbers 18:26
“Moreover, you shall speak to the Levites and say to them, ‘When you take from the sons of Israel the tithe which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then you shall present an offering from it to the LORD, a tithe of the tithe.

Okay, this is 11%. Interest, so to speak.

Numbers 18:28
So you shall also present an offering to the LORD from your tithes, which you receive from the sons of Israel; and from it you shall give the LORD’S offering to Aaron the priest.

No % given

Deuteronomy 12:6
There you shall bring your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the contribution of your hand, your votive offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock.

10%

Deuteronomy 12:11
then it shall come about that the place in which the LORD your God will choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to the LORD.

10%

Deuteronomy 12:17
You are not allowed to eat within your gates the tithe of your grain or new wine or oil, or the firstborn of your herd or flock, or any of your votive offerings which you vow, or your freewill offerings, or the contribution of your hand.

10%

Deuteronomy 14:22
“You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year.

10%

Deuteronomy 14:23
You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

10%

Deuteronomy 14:28
“ At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.

Again, this is just 10%. In the 3rd year the tithe goes to a different place than the 1st and 2nd, but it's still just 10%.

Deuteronomy 26:12
“ When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

See above.

All that, and you still haven't addressed any of the points I made. Proving that not only are you bad at math, your reading skills seem to be lacking as well.

 

[meecha]

Okay, you provided lots of verses, but nothing of what you provided indicated "12-15%." Your quotes support 10%, and for certain instances 11-12%. So I must conclude that either you're really bad at math, or you just don't know how to admit you're wrong.

OK Grunge I am wrong. It's 10-12 % ...not 10-15%. So it's actually less than I originally said.
This doesn't make Jesus a supporter of tax funded government welfare and it doesn't change the fact that out of your own mouth you trust a secular government more than the Church of Jesus Christ to minister to the poor.

 

[JimJimmers]

Do you really want to argue that helping people in any way possible is NOT what Christ commanded? Seriously? And you call me naive?

If wanting to help people in every possible way makes me a commie, paint me red and set me out to dry. That's what Jesus told me to do, and dangit, I'm going to do it, and anyone who claims to be a Christian should do it, too. If you don't, you're not a Christian. Period, end of story.

PMFJI, but I feel I have to comment on that. If I stole your car and sold it to a scrap dealer, and gave the money to an orphanage, that's still not right. Likewise, if we let the government violate The Constitution by not allowing each state to handle their own social affairs, it's still wrong even if it helps people. Jesus told us to feed the poor, and many people think this includes letting the Federal Government feed the poor. However, Jesus told us to avoid debt, and I don't understand why people don't seem to think that includes the Federal Government also. We are coming up on 15 TRILLION dollars in Federal debt! I believe this is one reason the Founding Fathers wanted a small federal government.

 

[meecha]

Go Jim Jimmers

 

[carey]

Romney is the bigger of two evils, one he's a morman, he wants to get rid of cancer screening for women, i need to get tested every year, he will cut medicare, he will give more tax cuts to the wealthy, and doesn't give a crap about the poor, as for obama he has actually done more for this country than people give him credit, bush completely destroyed our economy, obama had to work from the ground up, romney will put us back where we started

This is my opinion, you don't have to agree with it

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Romney is the bigger of two evils, one he's a morman, he wants to get rid of cancer screening for women, i need to get tested every year, he will cut medicare, he will give more tax cuts to the wealthy, and doesn't give a crap about the poor, as for obama he has actually done more for this country than people give him credit, bush completely destroyed our economy, obama had to work from the ground up, romney will put us back where we started

This is my opinion, you don't have to agree with it

I agree with you on some of your points.

I don't think Romney's Mormonism is a problem. I have many friends who are Mormon, and they are some of the nicest people I know. A Mormon who's economic policies are bad for the country will make a bad president, not because he's a Mormon, but because his economic policies are bad for the country. A Baptist with Romney's same economic leanings would be just as bad, and if there was an Atheist running for president who had all the right policies, both domestic and foreign, I'd vote for him (or her).

Yes, Romney's cuts in healthcare are problematic. Yes, he doesn't give a crap for the poor. I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm not convinced Obama really cares that much for the poor, but at least the policies he supports are better for the economic health of the country, and tend to favor the middle-class and the poor, rather than favoring the rich, at the expense of the middle-class and poor, which is what Romney's policies do.

In other words, if you're an ogre who happens to do the right things, what do I care which god you worship? Sure, God cares, and if you come to me and ask, I'll tell you about Jesus and encourage you to get baptized. Being a Christian is a requirement for God, but it's not a requirement for President of the US.

On the other hand, you can sit in the front pew every Sunday, say "Amen" at all the right places, raise your hands in the air, let your eyes fill with tears at your testimony, but if you enact legislation that is going to favor the rich and powerful at the expense of the widows and orphans, you are no friend of God, and you will not make a good president.

The older I get, the more the letter of James makes sense. Flapping our jaw isn't what gets us saved.

 

[quakerzen]

Pro'bama, 4 more years

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Pro'bama, 4 more years

Hi quakerzen.

First of all, let me say that you and I probably agree on a lot of things, both politically and theologically. Peace, bro !

Question: Can I assume from your "handle" that you are Quaker?

If so, are you not troubled by our presidents actions in the middle east? As a peace-loving Christian, does it not concern you that our president, who was elected on promises to end "the war," has actually furthered much bloodshed, and at the very least, done no better than his predecessor?

I have to say, Obama is by far the lesser of evils (or the least of, if you include Ron Paul). But I am very concerned about his foreign policies. I know the Friends are very big into non-violence. I'd be curious to hear more on that from you?

 

[meecha]

in todays Lew Rockwell

To suggest that the President of the United States has the power to make the economy worse is to imply that he also has the power to make the economy terrible. He has limited power either way, unless he drags us into a war. Bush dragged us into two wars.

Ron Paul always was right for 36 years in not pointing to the President as the main economic problem, but rather the Federal Reserve System. So, any (criticism) that does not go after the Federal Reserve when it talks about economic problems, but blames the President instead, and also ignores Congress, is doing the general public an enormous disservice. It keeps the Federal Reserve in the background in the thinking of the viewers, when the Federal Reserve ought to be in the foreground, with the presidency in the background. This is basic economics.

I spent a day of my life at the 2012 Republican Convention. The plan was to stay for full four days, but the choreographed and staged "decision-making" made the 2,000 plus delegates irrelevant. Republican Party members hoping to see democracy in action were left staring at a fuzzy gray screen, listening to static, beating their heads against padded white walls. No free man would subject himself to such idiocy. As Doug Wead so delightfully put it, the party has been reduced to "ten fat men sitting in a room."

One of these fat men is John Sununu. Watching him on Tuesday afternoon steamroll the wishes of half of the delegate floor, and destroy what was left of the integrity of the GOP, I was strongly reminded of Nurse Ratched running the floor at the Salem State Hospital. In One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, Ratched dominates her fiefdom sternly, with her contempt for her charges oozing with her every smirk, and every command. This evil queen saw criminality in a raised eyebrow, revolution in a meek request for equality. Punishment for dissenters would be quick, overwhelming, and comprehensive. John Sununu’s totalitarianism was on display, and his goal seemed obvious: the literal and figurative lobotomy of the constitutional and liberty movement within the party.

 

[quakerzen]

Hi quakerzen.

First of all, let me say that you and I probably agree on a lot of things, both politically and theologically. Peace, bro !

Question: Can I assume from your "handle" that you are Quaker?

If so, are you not troubled by our presidents actions in the middle east? As a peace-loving Christian, does it not concern you that our president, who was elected on promises to end "the war," has actually furthered much bloodshed, and at the very least, done no better than his predecessor?

I have to say, Obama is by far the lesser of evils (or the least of, if you include Ron Paul). But I am very concerned about his foreign policies. I know the Friends are very big into non-violence. I'd be curious to hear more on that from you?

I am a Quaker but I'm more of a "liberal" Quaker. I do have a problem with invading random countries and killing innocent people, but a part of me wants to see these oppressive evil regimes fall so the people of those countries can be free from basically a Hell on Earth. Syrians are dying everyday because their government wants to stay in power, and Iran is one big giant mess of a nation. I'm not saying invade Iran, but when Iran gets involved and helps Syria slaughter innocent women and children, I wouldn't mind seeing them get knocked down a peg or two. I know it's not very "Quakery" (lol) of me but I think the world watching as innocent people are brutally murdered is far worse than killing evil dictators and their equally evil men. Obama and Romney basically have the same views as far as warfare so there's not much you can do either way.

I'm a very big supporter of Obama on his domestic issues. Basically all of them. Obviously one or two are out of touch, but most are very close to my personal beliefs. I'm a huge supporter of the DREAM Act, Obamacare's ability to help kids stay covered while their in college, his support for equal marriage rights for my gay friends and family even though his person religious beliefs tell him otherwise, his ongoing support for better education and funding for loans and Pell grants, his desire to remain as neutral as possible in the literally-it-will-never-end Israel/Palestine nonsense, his desired DECREASE in military spending and increase in pay for teachers, cops and non-volunteer fire fighters, his support for Planned Parenthood (as unpopular as it is on a forum like this, they do A LOT of good for women who are low income and have health issues like cervical cancer or AIDS) and his energy policies. I mean, I disagree with Romney on basically ALL of these issues. I know Obama's defense policy isn't perfect but he's trying to cut spending for it, at least. It's concerning but the US has ALWAYS been tangled up in world politics, it's the nature of the beast. If we weren't, Jews would still be slaughtered in Germany and Japan would still be raping and murdering Chinese women.

 

[meecha]

his ( Obama's) support for Planned Parenthood (as unpopular as it is on a forum like this, they do A LOT of good for women who are low income and have health issues like cervical cancer or AIDS)

why might that be an unpopular position for people on this forum I wonder?

 

[hhhlga89]

his support for Planned Parenthood (as unpopular as it is on a forum like this, they do A LOT of good for women who are low income and have health issues like cervical cancer or AIDS)

So does the LOT of good things they do justify them promoting and carrying out abortions??? That's like saying a serial killer is a good guy because he gives alot to charity. There are PLENTY of organizations that help low income woman that don't KILL life along with it. Why vote for a president who takes part in that???

 

[oracle2world]

The purpose of a secret ballot is to allow you complete freedom to select your representatives without fear or coercion.

Who will I vote for? The one that best represents my own personal self interests. Sorry if that does not sound politically correct.

 

[chasten]

You obviously like the world to be as simple as possible

Uhm Yeah. Why would she want things to be complicated. Especially if its a DUH question. Romney and Obama. Who are you voting for? Hmm..Why dont we sit here and think about it a little more deeply.

 

[chasten]

Anyway. Im voting for Romney. Because Obama has had 4 years to fix us and he hasnt. I dont think he either NEEDS more time, nor deserves it. SO the next best thing is Romney. Give him a shot, and if he fails on to the next. I dont agree with this legalizing gay marriage thing either. Because the bible tells me so. Not that Im too worried about it though honestly. Everything is preordained. Im kinda hoping god will step in before then, and even if he doesnt, Holy is the Lord god almighty forever and ever amen. Righteous are his plans, and judgements. I wish someone would come up with a plan to get Americas foundation back on track, and us out of debt before throwing all these topics around that can be voted on at a later date. And throwing snide comments around, that just arent neccessary. Trying to make the other man look bad. Honestly I dont want ANYONE with those qualities running my country. Like 5 year old girls trying to win a popularity contest. Just get me outta debt, our jobs back, and economy back where it should be. As Americans we should put America first and foremost before all else. We should build each other up, not tear each others dreams down. Unfortunately we dont have a candidate that is willing to put all focus on that and drop everything else. SOoo... Romney is the lesser of two evils. If you dont agree with my post, good for you, its a touchy topic.keep your comments to yourself, unless they are civil. Please and thank you.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

his support for Planned Parenthood (as unpopular as it is on a forum like this, they do A LOT of good for women who are low income and have health issues like cervical cancer or AIDS)

why might that be an unpopular position for people on this forum I wonder?

So you tell me, meecha. Why do you think women with health issues like cervical cancer or AIDS should not receive help from a non-profit organization? You think low-income women with these issues should suffer because ... what, they're less worthy than women who are wealthier and have access to insurance and health care?

Praytell, WHY would people on this forum think that low-income women are somehow unworthy of the help and support that Jesus commanded we give everyone?

I really want to know.