Who is Elihu?

[UnoiAmarah]

The Lord said his heart was perfect and that was proven when David repented as a result of Nathan's rebuke.

In order to discern whether David's heart is perfect then you must known what the one must do to be perfect before the LORD. I will give you some credibility if you at least known what the LORD's word tells man he must do to be perfect before him.

I noticed in your previous post that you had answered the questions that Ehilu had asked Job but didn't answer the one that the LORD had asked the one without knowledge regarding where he was when the LORD asked "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding- when I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it? Job had said where he was so that is one reason to consider that the question was directed to Elihu.

The Lord never said David was sinless, any insinuation to that effect is stupid.

You are the one claiming the LORD said David had a perfect heart.

While it is inferred by implication in 1 Sam 13:14 that "the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart" was referring unto David, yet seeking and obtaining are two different things. "Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." 1 Kings 15:5

But I am not arguing whether or not David had a perfect heart or not since IMO that is a question that can only be answered by his creator, but I don't think that David ever stop seeking.

Again just like Job. Nathan the Prophet rebuked David, just like Elihu.

It is written the LORD sent Narhan to David. Nathan didn't rebuke David; he told David what the LORD had sent him to tell David since his heart couldn't perceive. So yes, when David heard the LORD's word he immediately identified with it and confess his error.

Elihu gave Job his opinion. "My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart:" Job 33:3

Elihu tells Job "Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying, I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me."Job 33:8-9

Wonder what Elihu's opinion would be of someone who said the following"

20 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.​

21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.​

22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.​

23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.​

24 Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.​

Ps 18:20-26​

​

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Not sure what your point is. Are you saying that a righteous man cannot turn from his righteousness?

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and sins, it is written he shall surely die.

Do you believe it is alright for a man to condemn God so that he may be righteous?

If it wasn't your LORD that was afflicting Job because he was righteous, then was it Elihu's God that was afflicting Job for being self-righteous. No, condemning a righteous man for his righteousness is in effect condemning the God of righteousness.

 

[tttallison]

No, condemning a righteous man for his righteousness is in effect condemning the God of righteousness.

Is it a sin to exalt your own righteousness while charging God with unrighteousness?

 

[posthuman]

Correct. The reason that point was made was to highlight a clear example of affirmation being given to a character in this story. There are 4 explicit references for Job, and there are zero explicit references for Elihu. We see praise for Job. We do not see praise for Elihu.

a similar argument can be made; we see explicit criticism from God of Job, of Satan, and of Job's three friends.
we se no criticism whatsoever in the Bible of Elihu: we only see Elihu criticized in later human commentary about the account.

do we take the approach of evil-until-proven-good, or good-until proven evil, when we meet someone in the Biblical text who speaks like a prophet, praising the name of God and proclaiming things peculiarly similar to what God Himself says?


you and i take different approaches to silence in this text

 

[posthuman]

If it wasn't your LORD that was afflicting Job because he was righteous, then was it Elihu's God that was afflicting Job for being self-righteous.

no.

it was God -- Elihu's God and Job's God and the only true God -- allowing Satan to afflict Job in order to prove Job's righteousness before all the angels. why?

Job's friends: God is afflicting Job because Job has sinned. ((incorrect))
Elihu: sometimes God may afflict a man not because of sin but in order to teach him something. ((correct))
UnoiAmarah: ((your comment here))

 

[posthuman]

Is it a sin to exalt your own righteousness while charging God with unrighteousness?

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil
(Isaiah 5:20)
​

 

[posthuman]

was it Elihu's God that was afflicting Job for being self-righteous

Give me neither poverty nor riches—​

Feed me with the food allotted to me;​

Lest I be full and deny You,​

And say, “Who is the Lord?”​

Or lest I be poor and steal,​

And profane the name of my God.
(Proverbs 30:8-9)​

 

[tttallison]

Job's friends: God is afflicting Job because Job has sinned. ((incorrect))

But Job has sinned.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Job's friends: God is afflicting Job because Job has sinned. ((incorrect))
Elihu: sometimes God may afflict a man not because of sin but in order to teach him something. ((correct))
UnoiAmarah: ((your comment here))

Posthuman: sometimes God may afflict a man not because of sin but in order to teach him something. (???)
Elihu: For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. (Job 34:11)
UnoiAmarah: The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

Is it a sin to exalt your own righteousness while charging God with unrighteousness?

Again, what do you consider Job said to support your accusation that Job was charging the LORD with unrighteousness?

 

[tttallison]

Again, what do you consider Job said to support your accusation that Job was charging the LORD with unrighteousness?

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

So what reason did God have for what he did to Job? Or rather what did Job do that he deserved to be smote with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown?

 

[tttallison]

So what reason did God have for what he did to Job? Or rather what did Job do that he deserved to be smote with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown?

We cannot put God in a box, for his ways are not our ways neither are his thoughts our thoughts. Job was on his way to hell, or as Elihu put it, Job was on his way to the pit.

Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

In Job 33:12-31 Elihu clearly explains why Job was suffering.

You ask, what did Job do that that he deserved to be smote with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown?

We must remember that God knows everybody's heart. Job's heart was not right for it was full of pride regarding his own righteousness. This is why God introduced Satan to Job. We are presented with two tests. The first test in chapter one, and the second test in chapter two. The first test involved what God had loaned to Job. The second test involved Job himself.

The first test Job passed beyond what one would expect of a person, and God praised Job to Satan. Satan's cause for that test was unjust as Job aced the test.

The second test Job failed, and God did not praise Job to Satan.

The reason so many fail to see that Job failed the second test is because the book was written in Hebrew and we are reading it in English.

Job 1:11But H199 put forth H7971 thine hand H3027 now, and touch H5060 all that he hath, and he will curse H1288 H3808 thee to thy face. H6440

In the above verse we have Strong's Hebrew numbers. Notice after the English word curse we see two Hebrew words from which curse is translated. The Hebrew words are bāraḵ and lō' . bāraḵ means to bless and lō' means not. "Bless not" is the meaning of the word that is translated curse in English.

We see that Satan said Job would not bless God. Yet in the first test Job did bless God, but in the second test Job did not bless God. Job failed the second test.

 

[posthuman]

Posthuman: sometimes God may afflict a man not because of sin but in order to teach him something. (???)

Job 33:14-18​

For God may speak in one way, or in another, yet man does not perceive it. ​

In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls upon men, while slumbering on their beds, then He opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction. ​

In order to turn man from his deed, and conceal pride from man, He keeps back his soul from the Pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.​

 

[posthuman]

Again, what do you consider Job said to support your accusation that Job was charging the LORD with unrighteousness?

Job 16:12-17​

I was at ease, but He has shattered me; He also has taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces; He has set me up for His target, His archers surround me. He pierces my heart and does not pity; He pours out my gall on the ground. He breaks me with wound upon wound; He runs at me like a warrior. ​

I have sewn sackcloth over my skin, and laid my head in the dust. My face is flushed from weeping, and on my eyelids is the shadow of death; although no violence is in my hands, and my prayer is pure.​

O earth, do not cover my blood, and let my cry have no resting place! Surely even now my witness is in heaven, and my evidence is on high.​

​

in all this Job is ignorant that it is Satan who has afflicted him, and thinks it is God.
yet:

Job 40:8​

Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?​

 

[posthuman]

Was it righteous for Jesus to say on the Cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Psalm 22 happens to have a title, which few Psalms do.

He was singing a song called the hind of the morning, which is a song about Israel - Israel is the hind, who believes itself to be forsaken, but in reality is not.
in the song, He is God, Who momentarily appears to have forsaken them because of their lack of understanding, but Who is even at that moment saving them.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

in all this Job is ignorant that it is Satan who has afflicted him, and thinks it is God. ]

Have you never considered that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isa 45:7

But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men. Mark 8:33

 

[christophernyc]

a similar argument can be made; we see explicit criticism from God of Job, of Satan, and of Job's three friends.
we se no criticism whatsoever in the Bible of Elihu: we only see Elihu criticized in later human commentary about the account.

do we take the approach of evil-until-proven-good, or good-until proven evil, when we meet someone in the Biblical text who speaks like a prophet, praising the name of God and proclaiming things peculiarly similar to what God Himself says?


you and i take different approaches to silence in this text

Elihu saying things that *sound* similar to God is the slippery slope on which some people are deceived by him. Will a false prophet say all "wrong" things? Hardly. It will be a mixture of some truth blended with lies. Jesus was very clear with His disciples when he warned them not to be deceived. Also consider when satan quoted Scripture to Jesus when Jesus was being tempted in the desert. Was satan interested in a bible study with Jesus? No, he was using truth toward a different goal and working against Jesus.

As for the approach, as mentioned before, if Elihu is claiming to speak for God, then his words should be tested. It's in analyzing his words, what he says and why, that should be the determining factor in evaluating his character, especially in the absence of any explicit criticism or praise.

So let's look at some of Elihu's words. Here is what Elihu says about what Job has said:

34:36 - Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! (NKJV)

Let's compare Elihu's words with God's words about what Job has said:

42:7,8 - And so it was, after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to yourfolly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.” (NKJV)

Elihu's assessment of what Job has said is the opposite of God's assessment.

 

[ZNP]

Elihu saying things that *sound* similar to God is the slippery slope on which some people are deceived by him. Will a false prophet say all "wrong" things? Hardly. It will be a mixture of some truth blended with lies. Jesus was very clear with His disciples when he warned them not to be deceived. Also consider when satan quoted Scripture to Jesus when Jesus was being tempted in the desert. Was satan interested in a bible study with Jesus? No, he was using truth toward a different goal and working against Jesus.

As for the approach, as mentioned before, if Elihu is claiming to speak for God, then his words should be tested. It's in analyzing his words, what he says and why, that should be the determining factor in evaluating his character, especially in the absence of any explicit criticism or praise.

So let's look at some of Elihu's words. Here is what Elihu says about what Job has said:

34:36 - Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! (NKJV)

Let's compare Elihu's words with God's words about what Job has said:

42:7,8 - And so it was, after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to yourfolly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.” (NKJV)

Elihu's assessment of what Job has said is the opposite of God's assessment.

Really? I figured saying Elihu was saying the wrong thing when God didn't, that was the slippery slope.

 

[christophernyc]

Job 16:12-17​

I was at ease, but He has shattered me; He also has taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces; He has set me up for His target, His archers surround me. He pierces my heart and does not pity; He pours out my gall on the ground. He breaks me with wound upon wound; He runs at me like a warrior. ​

I have sewn sackcloth over my skin, and laid my head in the dust. My face is flushed from weeping, and on my eyelids is the shadow of death; although no violence is in my hands, and my prayer is pure.​

O earth, do not cover my blood, and let my cry have no resting place! Surely even now my witness is in heaven, and my evidence is on high.​

​

in all this Job is ignorant that it is Satan who has afflicted him, and thinks it is God.
yet:

Job 40:8​

Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?​

Job 1:11,12 - But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”

Job 2:5,6 - But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”

Job 42:11 - Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him.

God says *twice* in 42:7,8 that Job has spoken what is right about Him.

Job 40:8 - Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?

God *asks* Job if he would annul God's judgment and condemn Him so that he may be justified. This is a question. It is *not* an accusation, and Job effectively answers this question with "no". Compare this to satan's prediction in chapters 1 & 2 when satan incorrectly claimed that Job would curse God to His face. In 40:8 Job is seeing God with his own eyes and God gives Job the opportunity to condemn Him, but what happens? Job absolutely rejects any such idea.

Did God bring adversity on Job? Yes. Reread 42:11 above. As a result, did Job condemn God? No. This is what the entire story is about and proves satan's prediction utterly and distinctly wrong. God's relationship with His creation is not transactional. It's relational. This is why Job is persistently crying out to God and wanting his relationship with God to be restored. When Job sees God he is relieved and has finally received he answer to his prayers.