The body of Christ . church history , ' Early church Fathers , revivals, the 'great awakening, tradition , Augustine , and such, reveal some interesting things , some good things happened perhaps , some bad things . I'd say a lot of the issues we have with 'Christianity today comes from things such as ' the great awakening ' A lot of folks are convinced more by such things than the scriptures. The bible doesn't say we are irresistibly graced nor previeniently . Thats what matters .Hello ThroughFaith, when you refer to what "the church teaches", what part of the visible church are you referring to (IOW, which church and/or denomination are you referring to)
Thanks!
~Deut
Who should get the credit for your salvation, you or God? Who makes the decision?
- Thread starter CorrectiveLens
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There is no such thing as salvation without God. Since he is the one doing the saving, it’s all credited to him. You simply letting it happen is a wonderful thing but the saving is his doing.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Well romans 11 is about Israel as a nation And their election according to the abrahamic covenant and Not about eternal salvation
we can earn salvation by chosing, that would be like saying the person who is drowning saved himself because he chose to allow someone to save him, instead of the one who risked their lives to save them
Jesus did all the work, his death paid the price
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I wonder if Jesus answered in john 6. When asked what work the people needed to do
”it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent”
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The Bible doesn't have a number of the doctrinal terms that are/have been put into common practice by the church (the Trinity of the Godhead comes to mind first). We use such terminology to make understanding what the Bible teaches us easier to understand/more accessible, especially for those in Christ who do not know their Bibles well enough to do so for themselves yet (just like we use creeds and catechisms, etc.).
So, what TRULY matters is what the Bible has to say/what it intends for us to understand, NOT the theological terms that we've come up with over the years to summarize/define/safeguard what the Bible teaches us to make learning, understanding, and remembering what it has to say easier for folks.
That said, since you mentioned the Body of Christ/the Church and have said that doctrines that the Church uses (like Irresistible and Prevenient Grace, and/or Arminianism/Calvinism/Semi-Pelagianism) as things that are not being taught by all them, could you tell me which church(es), specifically, do not do so
(because as far as I know, EVERY church/denomination within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, e.g. RC, EO , OO, and all of the various Protestant denominations, teach that God must act/must do a mighty work in us, preveniently or irresistibly, to enable us to come to the Lord Jesus in saving faith).And likewise, as far as I know, every one of them (our various churches) teach Calvinism, Arminianism, or Semi-Pelagianism, not Pelagianism or Antinomianism (which are both considered to be unorthodox heresies by the Christian church) .. unless you know otherwise
(if you do, then please name the church or denomination that teaches such things). Thanks!--David
I've said it before ,there is scarcely a denomination that's Calvinism has not permeated into to one degree or another. I count Arminianism as calvinistic. So yeah name your denomination. A great number of Christians think there's only Calvinism and Arminianism to choose from .The Bible doesn't have a number of the doctrinal terms that are/have been put into common practice by the church (the Trinity of the Godhead comes to mind first). We use such terminology to make understanding what the Bible teaches us easier to understand/more accessible, especially for those in Christ who do not know their Bibles well enough to do so for themselves yet (just like we use creeds and catechisms, etc.).
So, what TRULY matters is what the Bible has to say/what it intends for us to understand, NOT the theological terms that we've come up with over the years to summarize/define/safeguard what the Bible teaches us to make learning, understanding, and remembering what it has to say easier for folks.
That said, since you mentioned the Body of Christ/the Church and have said that doctrines that the Church uses (like Irresistible and Prevenient Grace, and/or Arminianism/Calvinism/Semi-Pelagianism) as things that are not being taught by all them, could you tell me which church(es), specifically, do not do so
And likewise, as far as I know, every one of them (our various churches) teach Calvinism, Arminianism, or Semi-Pelagianism, not Pelagianism or Antinomianism (which are both considered to be unorthodox heresies by the Christian church) .. unless you know otherwise
--David
Which is a result of teaching step by step doctrines and statements of faith ,just so they can recite it back and tick the boxes . Instead of teaching them to arrive at the conclusions themselves .
Hello again Throughfaith, my questions seemed simple enough (well, to me anyway
), but since you didn't answer either one of them, I'll assume that they weren't as clear to you as they seemed to be to me, so I'll try again.Question #1: Please name a church and/or a denomination within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (Protestant or Catholic) that teaches what you believe about God's enabling grace (or more specifically, about the lack thereof).
Thanks!
~Deut
p.s. - I'll wait to hear your answer to question #1 above before continuing on to question #2 again
Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)Hello again Throughfaith, my questions seemed simple enough (well, to me anyway
Question #1: Please name a church and/or a denomination within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (Protestant or Catholic) that teaches what you believe about God's enabling grace (or more specifically, about the lack thereof).
Thanks!
~Deut
p.s. - I'll wait to hear your answer to question #1 above before continuing on to question #2 again
Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)
Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)
And to answer your second question I would say ( probably ) that every believer that is not influenced by Calvinism ,believes the above . So all churches that recognise both the errors of all 5 points of Calvinism and understands the biblical position on the 'components of salvation ' Do not believe in 'irresistible or previenient grace ( as taught by Calvinists and Armins )
(Edited )Hello again Throughfaith, my questions seemed simple enough (well, to me anyway
Question #1: Please name a church and/or a denomination within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (Protestant or Catholic) that teaches what you believe about God's enabling grace (or more specifically, about the lack thereof).
Thanks!
~Deut
p.s. - I'll wait to hear your answer to question #1 above before continuing on to question #2 again
Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)
Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)
Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)
I would say ( probably ) that every believer that is not influenced by Calvinism ,believes the above . So all churches that recognise both the errors of all 5 points of Calvinism and understands the biblical position on the 'components of salvation ' Do not believe in 'irresistible or previenient grace ( as taught by Calvinists and Armins )
But as I said before there is scarcely a church/ denomination thats not in some way influenced by Calvinism. Even those that say they are against Calvinism will then quote Spurgeon, MacArthur , and such ,all the time . Most don't understand they have picked up calvinistic thinking. Most would think at a glance of the TULIP would consider themselves at least a 1 or 2 pointer. I used to ,until I actually understood what they meant, and could not find them in the bible.
Who should get the credit for your salvation, you or God? Who makes the decision?
To answer the question we can only ever say that God gets all the credit for salvation. After all it was his plan from the beginning.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— (Ephesians 1:3-5)
There are many views on how faith takes place in sinful man, but at the end of the day it was in accordance to God's good pleasure and will .. Not man's, lest anyone boast!
As to who makes the decision, both Armenian and Calvinists have differing views on this, I will assume we are referring to Justification as both Arminians and Calvinists believe that Sanctification is synergistic. But we have to bear in mind that both views hold that faith is mans response to God's grace.
The distinction then is, how one comes to faith. As both sides take the stance that man can make ''free'' choices. Before even answering that question one must ask what are our choices ''free'' from? Since we are asserting that our choices are free, we must also be asserting that each choice we make is not bound to any force, whether outside of us or by our will's (the natural man - our own conscience). But that is a different topic, related but different.
The view which should be rejected by Christians is Pelagianism (in fact it has been rejected as heresy since its inception). Semi -pelagian has also been rejected as heresy and rightfully so. Both are untenable in light of scripture.
So my answer to the question - Soli Deo Gloria
To answer the question we can only ever say that God gets all the credit for salvation. After all it was his plan from the beginning.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— (Ephesians 1:3-5)
There are many views on how faith takes place in sinful man, but at the end of the day it was in accordance to God's good pleasure and will .. Not man's, lest anyone boast!
As to who makes the decision, both Armenian and Calvinists have differing views on this, I will assume we are referring to Justification as both Arminians and Calvinists believe that Sanctification is synergistic. But we have to bear in mind that both views hold that faith is mans response to God's grace.
The distinction then is, how one comes to faith. As both sides take the stance that man can make ''free'' choices. Before even answering that question one must ask what are our choices ''free'' from? Since we are asserting that our choices are free, we must also be asserting that each choice we make is not bound to any force, whether outside of us or by our will's (the natural man - our own conscience). But that is a different topic, related but different.
The view which should be rejected by Christians is Pelagianism (in fact it has been rejected as heresy since its inception). Semi -pelagian has also been rejected as heresy and rightfully so. Both are untenable in light of scripture.
So my answer to the question - Soli Deo Gloria