Why Calvinism is NOT biblical

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trofimus said:
"he [Jonah] cried and said..."

Considering whole the story, Jonah does not seem to be a man who tries to do everything God says. His anger against Niniveh could play a role in how he presented the message. Or maybe he presented just a part of it and left out the part about possible escape.
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9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God changed His mind concerning overthrowing them, instead He showed them mercy. God had every intention of overthrowing Nineveh in forty days.
 
John146 said:
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God changed His mind concerning overthrowing them, instead He showed them mercy. God had every intention of overthrowing Nineveh in forty days.
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This is a commentary of a human author and its obviously an antropomorphism, like to say "God regrets" etc.
 
John146 said:
The message from God to Nineveh was, "Yet, forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." This is not a good news message but a message of destruction. Jonah knew that there was a chance that Nineveh might believe the message and repent and cry out to God, and in turn, God in His mercy would repent of the destruction and not overthrow them.

If Nineveh was predestined to repent, then did God lie when He said He would overthrow them in forty days?
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I mean how silly is that. God knew they would repent. It was an object lesson to Jonah and all who read the account. The whole point was to show His mercy. It's the exact lesson He gives to us. The wages of sin are death. Did God lie about that? Of course not! He provided His Son so that we can repent.
Just like Ninevah, He KNOWS who is going to repent and who is not.
Jonah knew God's Character, that He is merciful. He knew the message would resonate with the Assyrians, and he knew God would show them mercy. THAT is why he didn't want to deliver the message.

God is also teaching us that WE need to deliver the GOSPEL even to our enemies.
 
John146 said:
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God changed His mind concerning overthrowing them, instead He showed them mercy. God had every intention of overthrowing Nineveh in forty days.
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C'mon! GOD DOES NOT CHANGE HIS MIND.
How could He? To change His mind implies that He had wrong thinking to begin with.
 
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PennEd said:
I mean how silly is that. God knew they would repent. It was an object lesson to Jonah and all who read the account. The whole point was to show His mercy. It's the exact lesson He gives to us. The wages of sin are death. Did God lie about that? Of course not! He provided His Son so that we can repent.
Just like Ninevah, He KNOWS who is going to repent and who is not.
Jonah knew God's Character, that He is merciful. He knew the message would resonate with the Assyrians, and he knew God would show them mercy. THAT is why he didn't want to deliver the message.

God is also teaching us that WE need to deliver the GOSPEL even to our enemies.
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If God knew Nineveh was going to repent, and in turn, He was not going to destroy them all along...Did God lie when He told them that He would overthrow them in forty days? Did God overthrow them in forty days? No, God simple changed His mind based upon their response to His word.

I'm not willing to change God's word to fit a theology, instead, I'm going change my theology based upon what God's word says.
 
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PennEd said:
C'mon! GOD DOES NOT CHANGE HIS MIND.
How could He? To change His mind implies that He had wrong thinking to begin with.
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Wrong thinking? Why? He simply allows man to decide. Ever read Jeremiah 18?

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Scripture is full of if, then statements. God says if you do that, then I'll do this. But if you do that, then I'll take this course of action. Now choose.
 
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I think this has really become the center of this debate. The idea that there is something WE DO that affects God's sovereignty. There are some things God cannot do. Shocking I know, but one of them is that God cannot learn. He cannot lie. How would it be possible for an entity to lie when they KNOW all the truth there is?

Now, I haven't read a single word of John Calvin's. I only rely on the WHOLE council of God's Word.

Please tell me if Jonah had a choice to go to Nineveh.
 
PennEd said:
C'mon! GOD DOES NOT CHANGE HIS MIND.
How could He? To change His mind implies that He had wrong thinking to begin with.
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yet the Bible records that He has changed His mind now and then

your remark that God had wrong thinking to begin with is illogical

you can't ignore the scriture that states He changed His mind

for example, the Bible says He regretted His human creation and so destroyed them in the flood but then said He would never do so again..and displayed the rainbow as a promise

changing your mind does not automatically mean you made a mistake. I could say I wanted cereal for breakfast and then change my mind and say, no wait, I'll have eggs instead

So the LORD changed his mind about the calamity he had said he would bring on his people.
Exodus 32:14

Did Hezekiah king of Judah or anyone in Judah kill him? Didn't he fear the LORD and seek the LORD's favor, and so the LORD changed his mind about the disaster that he had spoken to them about. We're bringing great disaster on ourselves.
Jeremiah 26:19

Who knows but that God may relent, have compassion, and turn from his fierce anger, so that we are not exterminated?"
So the LORD relented from this. "This will not happen, either," said the Lord GOD.
Jonah 3:9

But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it.
Jeremiah 18:8

Perhaps they'll listen, and each of them will repent from his evil way. Then I'll change my mind about the disaster I'm planning to bring on them because of their evil deeds. Jeremiah 26:3
 
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PennEd said:
I think this has really become the center of this debate. The idea that there is something WE DO that affects God's sovereignty. There are some things God cannot do. Shocking I know, but one of them is that God cannot learn. He cannot lie. How would it be possible for an entity to lie when they KNOW all the truth there is?

Now, I haven't read a single word of John Calvin's. I only rely on the WHOLE council of God's Word.

Please tell me if Jonah had a choice to go to Nineveh.
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Jonah exercised his choice and spent some time in the guts of the great fish.

Was Jonah rewarded for his resistance to serving God? He went only after great coercion from God and he did not rejoice in the Lord bringing Nineveh to repentance. How would Jonah be any different than Pharaoh? One chose to repent and the other did not so choose. Did God select each because God knew what choices they would ultimately make when pressed on the subject?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
PennEd said:
C'mon! GOD DOES NOT CHANGE HIS MIND.
How could He? To change His mind implies that He had wrong thinking to begin with.
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Yet the bible says that mankind in Noah's day was so continually evil that it repented God that He had made them.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Did God change His mind? Or did God know it would come to this point and He would destroy all men save eight souls?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
notuptome said:
Jonah exercised his choice and spent some time in the guts of the great fish.

Was Jonah rewarded for his resistance to serving God? He went only after great coercion from God and he did not rejoice in the Lord bringing Nineveh to repentance. How would Jonah be any different than Pharaoh? One chose to repent and the other did not so choose. Did God select each because God knew what choices they would ultimately make when pressed on the subject?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Read it carefully. God killed Jonah and brought him back to life. And if Jonah persisted to disobey God, He would have done what ever was necessary to get him to comply and go to Nineveh. So again I ask what choice Jonah had?
 
notuptome said:
Yet the bible says that mankind in Noah's day was so continually evil that it repented God that He had made them.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Did God change His mind? Or did God know it would come to this point and He would destroy all men save eight souls?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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on a side note:
Noah was perfect in his generations. Or read Noah was perfect in his GENES, GENETICS.
I am convinced that fallen Angels mated with human women and corrupted the gene pool.

But to the larger point. How can a being that knows everything change His Mind? It's silly.
The verbiage used is for OUR understanding, from OUR side of the time domain.


If I know the Eagles were gonna win the Super Bowl, and Nick Foles was gonna be MVP, before they ever played, but said Tom Brady was going to win the MVP, then regret that I said Tom Brady would win, you look at me like I was crazy. That's what we're ascribing to God when we say He changed His Mind.
 
PennEd said:
Read it carefully. God killed Jonah and brought him back to life. And if Jonah persisted to disobey God, He would have done what ever was necessary to get him to comply and go to Nineveh. So again I ask what choice Jonah had?
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This is a thought exercise. I agree that God killed Jonah and brought him back to life. I would submit for consideration that if Jonah had continued in his rebellion against God that God would have sent another in his place. Did Jonah receive reward for his service in preaching to Nineveh?

Jonah is at least as stubborn as most Christians today. I do not think that Jonah is an example of Gods sovereignty as much as a demonstration of God long suffering grace toward His children.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
PennEd said:
But to the larger point. How can a being that knows everything change His Mind? It's silly.
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And yet the Bible says God DID change His mind several times.

PennEd said:
There are some things God cannot do. Shocking I know, but one of them is that God cannot learn.
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Gen 2:
19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Gen 22:
12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Jer 32:
35) They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

God is sovereign, but not in the way most people believe. He knows everything that is available to know, but it is not available to know every choice that we as free will beings will make before those choices are made. God responds to the choices we make. It is not all predetermined.
 
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I don't know how a person can continue to state that God does not change His mind when He obviously does

what God changes His mind from, is punishment for those who disobey or who have refused Him

when the person(s) 'repent' of their actions, God withholds His hand and does not punish

there are many examples of this in the OT

maybe this doesn't fit in with the Calvinist mindset and maybe this is part of the error in the Calvinist mindset

not trying to insult anyone, but you can't deny the verses that state God changes His mind and you have to reconcile the apparent contradiction in 'whosoever will' and predestined

it is both. one from God's POV and understanding and one from our understanding
 
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PennEd said:
God is also teaching us that WE need to deliver the GOSPEL even to our enemies.
Click to expand...

Jonah was not preaching any gospel, on the contrary, his sermon was one of destruction. Let's not add to the word of God.
 
PennEd said:
C'mon! GOD DOES NOT CHANGE HIS MIND.
How could He? To change His mind implies that He had wrong thinking to begin with.
Click to expand...

King David thought other wise:

2 Samuel 12
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
 
PennEd said:
on a side note:
Noah was perfect in his generations. Or read Noah was perfect in his GENES, GENETICS.
I am convinced that fallen Angels mated with human women and corrupted the gene pool.

But to the larger point. How can a being that knows everything change His Mind? It's silly.
The verbiage used is for OUR understanding, from OUR side of the time domain.


If I know the Eagles were gonna win the Super Bowl, and Nick Foles was gonna be MVP, before they ever played, but said Tom Brady was going to win the MVP, then regret that I said Tom Brady would win, you look at me like I was crazy. That's what we're ascribing to God when we say He changed His Mind.
Click to expand...

Has God chosen to limit His knowledge when it comes to man's decision to follow His word? Can God do that? Has God chosen to remember our sins no more? Can God choose to limit His knowledge?
 
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