Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

[de-emerald]

de-emerald said:
so no one recieves the first fruits untill there ressurected in end times ?. exactly what was the reason the ot saints where resurected from the grave only to be put back to sleep. ? what was the reason for it. did they recieve anything ?.

It appears that it was a sign to the people, for Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life." Remember what the century said who was there watching over Jesus on the cross? When Jesus gave up His spirit the curtain in the temple was torn in two, there was an earthquake, the rocks split and the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and said, “Truly this was the Son of God.” I suppose that all of those who came out of their tombs was a sign to the people as well, that Jesus is the author of life.

Thats just no answer at all, that it was just a sign. it really is.

 

[de-emerald]

Tribulation is nothing new, but a specific period of time which is unprecedented is definitely something different. And both Daniel and Christ tell us that there will be a very specific period or time of trouble such as never was nor ever will be. A portion of that time period will correspond to "the Day of the LORD". Which will also be unique in human history. So we do not need to make a mishmash of Bible prophecy.

THE TRIBULATION ("THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE")
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

THE GREAT TRIBULATION
For then shall be [the] Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21)

It is "the Great Tribulation" since in Revelation 7 is it called "the Tribulation, the Great" in Greek.

Its called great tribulation because all life on this world will end and this world will die. . as global warming reaches higher levels, so will deadly plagues. as Jesus said theese things must come to pass and he will know exactly how long the earth has left.

as the heat of global warming reaches alarming levels, the chemical balance of the whole world will be greatly effected, there will be death every where and plagues and disease that come from the dead bodies, famine and disease lack of food on land will get worse and worse over time as dry land from global warming will increase untill the earth gets so hot. our plannet just becomes another mars. God knows when that time will be. and make his final Judgements on us all.

 

[de-emerald]

The pre-tribulation gathering of the church is not false, but will be the fulfillment of the Lord's promise to gather us from the earth prior to His wrath being poured out on a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And since Jesus said that it will come upon the whole inhabited world, then everyone on earth will be exposed to those plagues of wrath, even the great tribulation saints. So for example, when God has those demonic beings released from the Abyss to torment mankind with stings like scorpions, no one will be exempt except for the 144,000. Everyone else will suffer from this. And it is the same for all of the other plagues of wrath. Therefore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 where the church will be gathered, will take place prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, followed by the trumpets and the bowl judgments.

It is because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely which is the principle reason why God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. Those who believe that the church will go through God's wrath are not believing in what Jesus accomplished. For by their belief they are putting the church through God's wrath right along with the wicked. And since God's wrath will affect the whole earth, there will be no place for anyone to hide from it. If the church was on the earth when the fourth angel pours out his bowl on the sun, if the church were here they would also be exposed to that scorching heat being seared. However, I would remind you again, that the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath.

denomic beings have been tormenting people for thousands of years. and tormenting christians to. thats not avalid argument sorry. are you going to tell me that Gods children wont be present in tribulation, because of the damage tormenting demons can do ?

Honestly you really are taking the wrong path. demons and satan have twisted the word of God in many many peoples minds and set them selfs up in this world as Gods, been going on for the last 6500 years.

 

[Hakawaka]

Actually, it is a full 70th week.

It says He confirmed it for a week.

And He did - right down to the end of the week - when Paul began to take the Gospel to the Gentiles - which is part of the promises in the Covenant.

If you follow the way Daniel is written, its clear the he there is not the messiah, because the same he is the one who brings the abomination of desolation:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’" [This HE here is not Jesus, because look at the following sentences;]

In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

 

[cv5]

Jesus HAS established everlasting righteousness by His death and resurrection. It is available to everyone, everywhere, by faith.

I would encourage you to take another look at the events of the first century with a more open mind.

Open mind? Hardly. More appropriately a discerning mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you follow the way Daniel is written, its clear the he there is not the messiah, because the same he is the one who brings the abomination of desolation:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’" [This HE here is not Jesus, because look at the following sentences;]

In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

They must not understand that to a Jew in those days an abomination of desolation was a horrific event. That could cause sacrifice to cease

 

[cv5]

Actually the 70 year captivity of the Jews lasted just 70 years. Some choose 608-538 and others choose 586-516. Either way that 70 years was fulfilled exactly and Daniel's prayers had something to do with that.

However, the 490 years are not about captivity but about deliverance. When Christ died on the cross, He delivered mankind from the power of sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan. Therefore those who believe on Him are delivered from the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin. But after the 70th week He will deliver creation from the bondage of sin and corruption (see Romans 8 and Revelation 21). Those seven years are reserved for wrath and judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly. But later everlasting righteousness will be established in the New Heavens and the New Earth. So Christians have the privilege of knowing God's plan in broad detail.

Agree. Both the "captivity of the nation" and "desolation's of Jerusalem" were 70 years exactly. We can count this first down to the year. However the desolations of Jerusalem can be calculated to the precise day. In Ezek 24:1,2 God gives the starting date. Haggai 2:10,18 God gives the end date.

It is succinct Scriptural prophetic realizations like this that utterly obliterate the pretensions of the allegorists. They are definitely barking up the wrong tree.......

 

[AandW]

denomic beings have been tormenting people for thousands of years. and tormenting christians to. thats not avalid argument sorry. are you going to tell me that Gods children wont be present in tribulation, because of the damage tormenting demons can do ?

Honestly you really are taking the wrong path. demons and satan have twisted the word of God in many many peoples minds and set them selfs up in this world as Gods, been going on for the last 6500 years.

In order to believe an untruth, one, must keep adding points to their argument that if they thought it through would have just not used for their proofs.

I am using Scripture from Daniel to Revelation to Matthew 24 to Thessalonians in a Parallel manner, so I just allow the Bible to speak for itself.

But notice [since you've caught it and brought it up], a False Doctrine will include many things that don't relate to their current Scripture proofs. And like you have mentioned, Demons have been attacking humanity every day since the fall of Satan upon this Earth. But to pad a False Doctrine, they will sneak that in like it will [ONLY HAPPEN] during a specific period of time.

It really is very comical to see what add-ons are attached to a [STRUGGLING] Myth fighting for air!

 

[AandW]

They must not understand that to a Jew in those days an abomination of desolation was a horrific event. That could cause sacrifice to cease

Let's keep it simple here so there is no confusion.
If Daily Sacrifice is held at the Temple of God, and you destroy the Temple, doesn't Daily Sacrifice stop since you held it at the Temple but the Temple no longer exists?

They could plainly see that when their Temple was destroyed.

It was no mystery to them at all!

 

[AandW]

The Beautiful Connection Christ makes to the Abomination of Desolation [Ending of Daily Sacrifice] from Daniel's Prophecy (in Matthew 24), is that Christ begins with the TEMPLE being destroyed.

A DESTROYED Temple = No Daily Sacrifice = Abomination of Desolation

Christ gave the answer when He begins with The Temple will be DESTROYED. Then He explains what that ultimately means [AoD]!

Don't know why people claim to take the Word of God at face value and then spend years twisting it?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Romans 2 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:

Where we seem to disagree is that I see Jesus as having come in Wrath once already.
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew,...... 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew,

As there are two judgments; an old covenant and a new covenant judgment

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

And as the old covenant has a demonstrative function

1 Corinthians 10:11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

We can see the first judgment as God showing us the nature of his judgment and how in effect his second judgment will look

Good day, OldSage,

I agree that 'wrath' and 'tribulation' from God have taken place in the past. Even now Paul says that there is a wrath from God against all wickedness and godlessness being revealed, where God is giving them over to the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. I believe that this is the reason for the increase of homosexuality, lesbianism and the LGBTQ movement in the world and the push to legalize it. And of course we have God's wrath resulting in the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. But this time of tribulation that will take place after the church has been gathered will be unprecedented with the plagues of wrath being very sever and many of them unheard of. It is a specific time of wrath that has been prophesied for about 3000 year to take place in conjunction with the end of the age, also know in part as 'The Day of the Lord," with the last 3 1/2 years being Tribulation, the great one. As I said, this coming time period of God's wrath will be nothing like the world has every seen and never equaled again.

 

[AandW]

God never gathered His Believers before any other tragedy. He warned them.
Lot go and don't look back.
Noah build an Ark.
Judeans in 70 A.D. go hide in the hills.

But suddenly God is now going to remove his followers from a 175 year old Doctrine that the Christ, the Apostles, the Church Fathers [Never] taught?

The COOLAIDE must be good you all are drinking to think God is going to do something He NEVER did before.

So much for God being the [SAME] yesterday, today, and forever!

 

[OldSage]

Good day, OldSage,

I agree that 'wrath' and 'tribulation' from God have taken place in the past. Even now Paul says that there is a wrath from God against all wickedness and godlessness being revealed, where God is giving them over to the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. I believe that this is the reason for the increase of homosexuality, lesbianism and the LGBTQ movement in the world and the push to legalize it. And of course we have God's wrath resulting in the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. But this time of tribulation that will take place after the church has been gathered will be unprecedented with the plagues of wrath being very sever and many of them unheard of. It is a specific time of wrath that has been prophesied for about 3000 year to take place in conjunction with the end of the age, also know in part as 'The Day of the Lord," with the last 3 1/2 years being Tribulation, the great one. As I said, this coming time period of God's wrath will be nothing like the world has every seen and never equaled again.

Your point is well-made. Although in Romans 1 Paul is talking in the past tense.
He is talking about what Israel did immediately on leaving Egypt, which incurred God's
wrath at the time, extreme wrath, as you can imagine, which was only appeased by the urgent ministrations and mediation of Aaron, Moses and the Levites.

His wrath was so intense at that point that he intended to obliterate the whole of Israel as I remember it.
In essence he then deferred his wrath on Israel - and put in place a mediator, the Law.
Eventually he came full circle; those who had not obeyed Moses and who had not accepted the mediation of
the Law leading to Christ, placed themselves back at square 1, viz, under the full wrath of God which was no longer deferred and which was duly completed in AD 67-73.

The fact that the Church is going full rainbow is just history repeating itself.

 

[Ahwatukee]

you indicated in a previous post there was.
(ahwatukees previous post)

this does look like more tribulation to me in the period of a thousand year reign of Christ. Ok so now your saying there is tribulation in this period, after you said there wasnt, do you or dont you know how long the period of tribulation is for in this period.

When I say "Tribulation Period" I am speaking specifically about God's wrath that is about to take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which will take place during that entire seven year period leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. There will be nothing to equal the plagues of wrath during that time period.

but as you've quoted this period is also a period of world wide peace. do you know how long that period is for, Now seeing as there is a period of great peace in this period and tribulation, would that mean that God children are present on earth, in a time of tribulation.

Regarding the period of world-wide peace, I was referring to the millennial kingdom. However, at then of that thousand years after Gog and Magog surround Jerusalem, God will rain fire down upon them. That's event does not take place within the seven year, but at the end of the thousand years.

Ok so now your saying theres no tribulation in this period either so God reigning down fire is not wrath at any people who have resorted to following satan again ?. Or none of Gods children will be present in this period either ?.

Of course it will be God's wrath when He rains fire down upon them, but it is not the same as the tribulation that will take place a thousand years prior. During the coming tribulation period, God's wrath will be on-going throughout that entire seven years leading up to Christ's return to the earth. In opposition, God's wrath where He rains fire down upon them at the end of the thousand years will be quick and concise!

because you say Gods children will only return to earth (a new earth) after the great white throne Judgement. personally speaking here and i don't want to fall out with you, but this pre trib rapture for the alive people on earth when tribulation starts in end times. is just a bit all over the place.

I think it might be more understanding if I create a chronological order of events for you.


* You are here!

* The gathering of the church takes place, removing believers within the church from the earth prior to God's wrath

* Antichrist establishes a seven year covenant with Israel and others which initiates the seven years

* God's wrath will begin and continue throughout the entire seven years via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

* In the middle of the seven years the Antichrist/beast stops Israel's sacrifices and offerings and sets up the abomination and proclaims to be God, sitting in the temple of God.

* At the end of the seven years, after the 7th bowl judgment, the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and the church with Him

* The beast and the false prophet are captured and cast alive in the lake of fire

* All of the wicked are killed by the Lord

* Satan is seized by and angel having the key to the Abyss and is thrown in and it sealed over him so that he cannot deceive the nations during the thousand years

* The great tribulation saints who died during the seven years are resurrected immortal and glorified and rule with Christ during the thousand years

* Satan is released at the end of the thousand years deceiving Gog and Magog whom God rains fire down upon when they surround Jerusalem

* Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown a thousand years earlier

* Great White Throne judgment takes place of all the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, as well as anyone not found written the book of life. This current heaven and earth are destroyed.

* New heaven, New Earth with the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God

* Eternal state -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->


I hope this helps for better understanding.

 

[Ahwatukee]

de-emerald said:
so no one recieves the first fruits untill there ressurected in end times ?. exactly what was the reason the ot saints where resurected from the grave only to be put back to sleep. ? what was the reason for it. did they recieve anything ?.

Thats just no answer at all, that it was just a sign. it really is.

Exactly my point! Just as the earthquake, the rocks splitting and the curtain in temple torn in two was a sign to cause the Centurion to say, "Truly this was the Son of God!" So it was also a sign when all of those who resurrected went back into the city where they were seen by the people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let's keep it simple here so there is no confusion.
If Daily Sacrifice is held at the Temple of God, and you destroy the Temple, doesn't Daily Sacrifice stop since you held it at the Temple but the Temple no longer exists?

They could plainly see that when their Temple was destroyed.

It was no mystery to them at all!

Let’s keep it simple
an abomination of desolation is an idle placed in a holy place rendering it unclean. Which causes sacrifice and burnt offering time cease
if God wanted us to Think it was the temple being destroyed and that was the cause of sacrifice ceasing he would have said so
it’s nit rocket science. It’s proper interpretation of what the term means

 

[AandW]

Let’s keep it simple
an abomination of desolation is an idle placed in a holy place rendering it unclean. Which causes sacrifice and burnt offering time cease
if God wanted us to Think it was the temple being destroyed and that was the cause of sacrifice ceasing he would have said so
it’s nit rocket science. It’s proper interpretation of what the term means

11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
יאוּמֵעֵת֙ הוּסַ֣ר הַתָּמִ֔יד וְלָתֵ֖ת שִׁקּ֣וּץ שֹׁמֵ֑ם יָמִ֕ים אֶ֖לֶף מָאתַ֥יִם וְתִשְׁעִֽים:

Shiqquts is used in the following ways:

1. In Daniel's prophecies in Daniel 11:31 (cf. 12:11), it is generally interpreted as referring to the fearful calamities that were to fall on the Jews in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, saying "And they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." Jerome, and most of the Christian fathers, suppose that the reference is to Antiochus as the type of Antichrist, and that the description passes from the type to the antitype. Idolatry is presented as the chief sin in the Bible, and shiqquts is often used to describe such.
2. In his campaign of Hellenization, Antiochus caused an altar to be erected on the altar for burnt-offerings of the Second Temple, on which pig sacrifices were offered to Zeus Olympios. (Comp. 1 Maccabees 1:54). Following the wording of Daniel 9:27, this may have been the abomination of desolation of Jerusalem.
3. sinful sacrifices (Isaiah 66:3)
4. idolatry (Deuteronomy 29:17, Ezekiel 20:7,8, 1Kings 11:5-7, Jeremiah 13:27)
5. witchcraft (2 Kings 23:24)

 

[Nehemiah6]

God never gathered His Believers before any other tragedy. He warned them. Lot go and don't look back. Noah build an Ark.

You just contradicted yourself. God shut Noah and his family within the Ark BEFORE judgment came. Lot and his family were literally dragged out of Sodom BEFORE judgment was poured out. God commanded the Israelites to put the blood of the lamb on their doorposts and lintels BEFORE He sent judgment upon Egypt. And Enoch was translated from earth to Heaven BEFORE the Flood. Enoch's rapture is a preview of the Rapture of the saints.

Divine wrath is reserved for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked. For the enemies of God. But for Christians here is the message: God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation. Why? Because Christ Himself took the full wrath of God against us when He died for our sins.

 

[AandW]

You just contradicted yourself. God shut Noah and his family within the Ark BEFORE judgment came. Lot and his family were literally dragged out of Sodom BEFORE judgment was poured out. God commanded the Israelites to put the blood of the lamb on their doorposts and lintels BEFORE He sent judgment upon Egypt. And Enoch was translated from earth to Heaven BEFORE the Flood. Enoch's rapture is a preview of the Rapture of the saints.

Divine wrath is reserved for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked. For the enemies of God. But for Christians here is the message: God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation. Why? Because Christ Himself took the full wrath of God against us when He died for our sins.

No, my point was Noah still went through the tragedy of the Flood.
Pre-Trib is claiming we won't go through Tribulation.
Noah went through the Tribulation, he was not removed from Earth to avoid it.

Big Difference!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No, my point was Noah still went through the tragedy of the Flood.
Pre-Trib is claiming we won't go through Tribulation.
Noah went through the Tribulation, he was not removed from Earth to avoid it.

Big Difference!

Unlike some of the other posters, I do not see "Noah & crew" as a picture of those being "RAPTURED" (rather, of those coming through the Trib yrs: comp. Dan2:35, Gen9:1, Matt24:37-41/Lk17:24-37)... Instead, I see "ENOCH" (ONE MAN) as a type/picture of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ONE BODY) being kept wholly outside of the time-period of the "flood judgment" unfolding upon the earth