Why do Calvinists believe things the bible doesnt say ?

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T

throughfaith

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#1
Aug 4, 2020
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#1
This is a serious question .
Let's look at ' regeneration precedes faith ' This doctrine colours the calvinists entire way they view the bible. You would think they have a verse which actually says this or a verse that says man cannot believe the Gospel. What you will find with all 5 points of Calvinism, is that all their major Doctrines do not have a verse that says what they believe.
All it would take to prove any of their major Doctrines would be a verse that SAYS what they claim the bible ' teaches ' . What Calvinism is built on is ' syllogism s' ..Each major Doctrine never has any verse actually saying what they claim, so it has to be inferred . Like this ' Because we know point a) is this ,this leads to b) and therfore leads to c) and the result is d) . Without fail this is Calvinism in a nut shell .
Watch out for this is conversation . They will usually want to set the premise first. Starting with a point you may agree upon . Basically something like this. Usually starting with the will of man. " You agree that man is totally depraved dont you ? " Erm yes I think so "
Well he cannot do anything good or anything to please God right ? " I guess so " , well believing the Gospel would be a good thing right " , Sure " , Well how does he come to believe the Gospel then " ....
Another one is " Why did you believe the Gospel and another didn't, were you more clever ?

Then the atonement/ universalism trick .
" You don't believe Jesus died for all without exception do you ? that would make you a universalist right? So you do believe the atonement is limited correct? Well we also, limited to whom God chose before the foundation of the world. We all believe in limited atonement right?
Ok if you can't see what's wrong in the last point it may be because you also have calvinistic presuppositions that need letting go of .
Thought s ?
 
Subhumanoidal

Subhumanoidal

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#2
Sep 17, 2018
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#2
This topic again. This horse has been beaten, buried, dug up and beaten again umpteen times now.
 
oyster67

oyster67

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#3
May 24, 2014
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#3
Subhumanoidal said:
This topic again. This horse has been beaten, buried, dug up and beaten again umpteen times now.
Click to expand...
As it should be. I have known young men who have confessed sin and then been told by their "pastor" that they did not need to repent because they were born again at an earlier time and could never forfeit their Salvation. The Bible exposes this lie. We are put here to speak the truth of the Word of God. Umpteen times umpteen times if that is what it takes.

Hebrews
10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#4
Jul 18, 2017
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#4
throughfaith said:
This is a serious question.
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You should cease and desist from anti-Calvinist threads, even though I am not a Calvinist. You need to get your understanding of the Gospel straight first of all.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#5
Aug 4, 2020
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#5
Nehemiah6 said:
You should cease and desist from anti-Calvinist threads, even though I am not a Calvinist. You need to get your understanding of the Gospel straight first of all.
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That's your opinion . Its my contention that you are in error by using Acts 2.38 as a plan of salvation ,so likewise I could say the same . And I think I can contend against calvinism as a false system. Am I violating any rules here ?
 
wattie

wattie

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#6
Feb 24, 2009
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#6
Yeah I get the idea of total depravity.. i get the idea that it is God who does the converting and people cant attain salvation by their own doing..

I get the idea that God knows everything we do before we do it..

But..

Does total depravity mean humans cant call out to God in faith for salvation? Not according to John 3:16 and Romans 10.

People cant be saved by their own doing.. does they mean they are chosen before they believe? No.. not according to John 3 again.

God knowing what we do before we do it.. does that mean we have no free will to receive Christ?

No .. people have free will. God hasn't created robots. Just because He knows what will happen doesn't mean we dont have any choice.

A father might most likely know his child is going to prick their finger learning sewing when he takes her there. Doesn't mean the child has no choice.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#7
Oct 13, 2011
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#7
Subhumanoidal said:
This topic again. This horse has been beaten, buried, dug up and beaten again umpteen times now.
Click to expand...
The OP is out to throw pies and bash. So we need not mind that. And, yes, there has been a number of threads like this, all of them containing a lot of draining repeating. However, for those of good will, orderly and serious minded, we can still respond to such.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#9
Aug 4, 2020
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#9
tribesman said:
The OP is out to throw pies and bash. So we need not mind that. And, yes, there has been a number of threads like this, all of them containing a lot of draining repeating. However, for those of good will, orderly and serious minded, we can still respond to such.
Click to expand...
No pies , no eye gouging, no bombing , no diving , let's have a clean fight.
 
T

throughfaith

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#10
Aug 4, 2020
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#10
Is it too much to ask for a verse that literally says what calvinists believe? Do we have verses for what we believe ?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#11
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#11
oyster67 said:
As it should be. I have known young men who have confessed sin and then been told by their "pastor" that they did not need to repent because they were born again at an earlier time and could never forfeit their Salvation. The Bible exposes this lie. We are put here to speak the truth of the Word of God. Umpteen times umpteen times if that is what it takes.

Hebrews
10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Click to expand...
Do you equate Calvinism with eternal security? I used to , but when you look at it they actually teach works to prove your election. I don't see any assurance in the reformed view of OSAS .
 
tribesman

tribesman

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#12
Oct 13, 2011
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#12
wattie said:
Yeah I get the idea of total depravity.. i get the idea that it is God who does the converting and people cant attain salvation by their own doing..
I get the idea that God knows everything we do before we do it..
Click to expand...
So far, so good. And you should have stopped there. Then comes a "But.." and the problems begin.

False or misguided teachers claims that the Holy Spirit enables sinners to meet conditions for their own salvation, but the Scripture teaches that the primary work of the Holy Spirit is to glorify Jesus Christ, NOT the sinner.

It is Christ ALONE who met all the penal and preceptive CONDITIONS for His elect. Faith and repentance are NOT conditions of salvation, but immediate and inevitable fruits of salvation.

To confuse the fruits of salvation with the conditions for salvation is to confound one’s own righteousness with the righteousness of Christ. It is to be ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (Romans 10:1-4).
 
oyster67

oyster67

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#13
May 24, 2014
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#13
tribesman said:
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness
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...for all those who open their hearts door to Him.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 
tribesman

tribesman

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#14
Oct 13, 2011
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#14
oyster67 said:
...for all those who open their hearts door to Him.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Click to expand...
The people He address there, are they regenerate or unregenerate?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#15
#15
Possibly a good question

t the same time, Why does the OP believes things the bible does not say?

If your going to attack someone else. You should clean your own house first.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#16
#16
oyster67 said:
As it should be. I have known young men who have confessed sin and then been told by their "pastor" that they did not need to repent because they were born again at an earlier time and could never forfeit their Salvation. The Bible exposes this lie. We are put here to speak the truth of the Word of God. Umpteen times umpteen times if that is what it takes.
Click to expand...
I have to wonder which is worse. Someone telling someone they do not have to confess their sin to find healing

Or someone telling a person they must work to maintain their salvation or God will take back his free gift.

To me both are evil.
 
oyster67

oyster67

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#17
May 24, 2014
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#17
tribesman said:
The people He address there, are they regenerate or unregenerate?
Click to expand...
Depends upon what they decide to do with Jesus...

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
 
tribesman

tribesman

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#18
Oct 13, 2011
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#18
oyster67 said:
Depends upon what they decide to do with Jesus...

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Click to expand...
The ones He addressed in Revelation was His church, not the world.

None of what you have quoted implies any free will for unregenerate man to choose to believe in Jesus.
 
tribesman

tribesman

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#19
Oct 13, 2011
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#19
eternally-gratefull said:
I have to wonder which is worse. Someone telling someone they do not have to confess their sin to find healing

Or someone telling a person they must work to maintain their salvation or God will take back his free gift.

To me both are evil.
Click to expand...
Yup. Two errors there.
 
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