Why do we have to suffer?

[Bogadile]

Are you sure I'm mistaken? Because you just agreed with me. Unless you think that I implied he changed his own name or it was because he had kids.

And for the 3 long posts you just made, they are referencing the area of land given to the children of Israel, right?

So, there are 3 names that seem to confuse the whole world; "Israel" (the person), "Israel" the 'country' that is occupied by God's enemies and demonic forces which is less than 100 years old, and "Israel" the umbrella term that misunderstanding people think means "Jews".

Like I said, I think the COUNTRY was named Israel to confuse people.

The land is just referred to as "the land" in the bible. It wasn't called "The land called Israel".

And why is the land of "greater Israel" or "promised land" occupied by other countries since it extends in to areas of Iraq, Syria, etc. Why aren't these places called "Israel" or "The land of Israel"? Why are there so-called Jews living in a tiny fraction of land out of all the land that was promised?

This is true. How I see it is that Israel was a people, Jacob a single person was renamed to Israel. And the descendants of him would be Israelites, who then spread to twelve tribes.

Now this people(or nation if you prefer) were promised a land. This land was often called "the land; the promised land; the land of canaan".
The first time it was called anything close to the current state of Israel would be after Solomon's reign when the Kingdom split into two. The northern kingdom was called "The Kingdom of Israel" and the south was "The Kingdom of Judah".

I am not anti-Israel by any means however I think people often get the People and Country confused.

After all this typing I have a request, can someone show me from the Bible an example of the Israelites being returned to the land while they were in unbelief? I cannot find any, but I vaguely remember one passage in Ezekiel somewhere, but even then it mentioned about purifying them.
I am still thinking if this state is a move of God and prophecy or not, on one hand it was unlikely to happen, very much so, but the truth is that they still have not turned from their unbelief which biblically is a condition to have the land.
Not to mention how can we tell today who is a direct descendant? We are very mixed. I'd say we all have some Isaac in us.

 

[Zen]

I don't consider anyone hating me as me suffering. So what? They hate me?

And, as for the suffering I have done? Well, kind of keep thinking Solomon had a pretty good life. It doesn't seem like suffering is a requirement. AND, if I could refuse it? (Um, no thanks, Lord. I like being middle-class just fine, so naaah, don't want to be poor.") I would have. He just never gave me that option.

1 Kings 5
4 But now the Lord my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.

We see a shadow of things to come, God caused these good things to happen. But things didn't end perfectly for king Solomon. He did suffer too, and if you read the books of wisdom you see how much vanity there is around us, it can vex us.

Ecclesiastes 1:
1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.


Some people suffer illness, some people suffer vanity and vexation of spirit, some people suffer persecution.

 

[Zen]

An angel tells Joseph, Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead. Matthew 2:20

Yep, the land where they lived, the land of 'the children of Israel'. They did not occupy the fullness of the promised land. Just like they only live in a small part of it now.

Why are so-called Jews only living in a tiny sliver of land compared to the whole area of promise?

And let's not forget what happened after the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Israel: they killed Christ.

And then let's not forget what God chose to do after resurrection; go and prepare New Jerusalem to replace the old one. New Jerusalem is a giant squared city of gold, it does not follow land boundaries.

Here's the scripture in the gospel regarding the people who reject Christ, the so-called Jews who people seem to idolize, AFTER Ezekiel:

Matthew 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
HE will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
“This is MY covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

That's what He did. Notice how it says "Jacob" and not "Jews". Remember back to where Jacob (Israel) had those 12 children who all received the promises of God? All of those tribes, not just Jews.

You politely asked me to read Romans 11, and this is the very first passage:

Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin

Yes, the tribe of Benjamin are Israelites. They are not Jews.

Here's your first comment addressed to me:

How can you say that? It is Jewish. God made the New Covenant with Israel.....it extended to the Gentiles.

You're arguing that the N.T. and Christianity is Jewish because I said it isn't. Your evidence to support that it is "Jewish" is to claim that it is made with Israel. I've explained that Israel is the umbrella term to describe all the descendants of the person of Israel (a.k.a. Jacob) which are 12 tribes, only 1 of the tribes is Jews, a.k.a. the tribe of Judah.

Salvation is 'of' the Jews, yes. The Messiah was born in the house of Judah. Instead of calling Lord Jesus a Jew, why not His more appropriate title of God?

Why does New Jerusalem have 12 gates? Because there are 12 tribes. If there were just Jews, it would have 1 gate.

 

[breno785au]

Suffering is part of being in a fallen world. Jesus suffered but what did He do? He was looking beyond it.

Suffering because of sins of your youth is down right wrong and you need not believe that. Read Job in context, what happened at the end? He shut his mouth when God rocked up.

James and Paul were pretty clear on the purpose of suffering, I believe the answer is there.

 

[Desertsrose]

Yep, the land where they lived, the land of 'the children of Israel'. They did not occupy the fullness of the promised land. Just like they only live in a small part of it now.

Why are so-called Jews only living in a tiny sliver of land compared to the whole area of promise?

And let's not forget what happened after the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Israel: they killed Christ.

And then let's not forget what God chose to do after resurrection; go and prepare New Jerusalem to replace the old one. New Jerusalem is a giant squared city of gold, it does not follow land boundaries.

Here's the scripture in the gospel regarding the people who reject Christ, the so-called Jews who people seem to idolize, AFTER Ezekiel:

Matthew 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



That's what He did. Notice how it says "Jacob" and not "Jews". Remember back to where Jacob (Israel) had those 12 children who all received the promises of God? All of those tribes, not just Jews.

You politely asked me to read Romans 11, and this is the very first passage:

Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin

Yes, the tribe of Benjamin are Israelites. They are not Jews.

Here's your first comment addressed to me:


You're arguing that the N.T. and Christianity is Jewish because I said it isn't. Your evidence to support that it is "Jewish" is to claim that it is made with Israel. I've explained that Israel is the umbrella term to describe all the descendants of the person of Israel (a.k.a. Jacob) which are 12 tribes, only 1 of the tribes is Jews, a.k.a. the tribe of Judah.

Salvation is 'of' the Jews, yes. The Messiah was born in the house of Judah. Instead of calling Lord Jesus a Jew, why not His more appropriate title of God?

Why does New Jerusalem have 12 gates? Because there are 12 tribes. If there were just Jews, it would have 1 gate.

​Well, Zen, we're way off from the OP so I'm going to get back to it. I'm sure this topic will arise again, it always does eventually. I just wanted to say that Jesus is Jewish from the tribe of Judah. No one is denying His divinity.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

After all this typing I have a request, can someone show me from the Bible an example of the Israelites being returned to the land while they were in unbelief?

Is this what you're referring to?


Ezekiel 20:

33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.


First God brings the people out from among the nations with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you (Ez 20:33-34).


Then, God will bring them into the wilderness of the people (Ez 20:35). This is indicative of a period of probation (or proving).


And there[/i] [God] will plead with [them] face to face and will cause [them] to pass under the rod, and [God] will bring [them] into the bond of the covenant (Ez 20:36-37). The manner in which God is pleading with the children of Israel face to face in our day and time is through the gentile nations (to provoke them to jealousy — Rom 11:11, Deut 32:21).


Then, God will purge out the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel (Ez 20:38).

 

[Desertsrose]

These conclusions are not definite, as most things in the bible are able to be seen in multiple ways and I am sure my way of looking at this is just one of those ways. Here goes.

I suspect that most long term suffering in those of us who have been around a while are punishment for sins committed in our youth. (Job 13:26 For you write down bitter things against me and make me reap the sins of my youth.) We reap what we sow. Back then a lot of us didn't care or believe in Godly punishment, so we did a lot of things wrong requiring a lot of punishment.

The short term punishments, it seems, are for the sins we commit now. Lack of prayer, unkind words, lustful thoughts, uncaring attitudes, etc. are sins our Father, God, will punish us for. (Hebrews 12:5-8 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.) We should rejoice in both the former and this punishment, because we are told that in receiving it we are assured that we are His children.

The last punishment is the worst that we hear about. I can only think that this is only for the ones that will be strong enough to endure it, because it is a test punishment, like Jesus endured, to allow us greater rewards in heaven. I don't expect to have to endure anything like this as I am afraid that I am too weak to endure something like that without falling away, but I would hope I wouldn't.

The punishments to the unsaved, I think are completely in control of Satan as God does not protect them. They can get the best of treatment or the worst of treatment at Satan's whim. He will treat some well to make others think that an ungodly life is a good life. He will treat others that seem good outwardly very badly to make unbelievers think that God is unfair and uncaring. In the instance of uncaring I suspect that they may be right. God knows the future of all of us and those who won't turn from Satan to Him he has no use for and lets Satan do as he will with them.

This just seems to me to be the way God and Satan are working things out and I am sure many of you have your own ideas of how the system works, but this may give you a different perspective of our suffering.

Hi Crusty,

Long term suffering, short term suffering and any type of suffering......
~ it can be from a sin when we were young
~ it can be from a sin after we become a Christian
~ it might be simply that like Paul, he had a special calling
~ or there's a scripture where the Jews asked if the person was sick because of his sin or his parents sin. Jesus said neither, it was for the glory of God.
~ it might be because of a poor diet by living in a 3rd world country.
~ It can be caused from persecution like suffering in Hitler's death camps.
~ Like the apostles they were flogged for speaking in Jesus' name.
~ Jesus said we would share in His sufferings.
~ Peter said to not be surprised at the sufferings that come upon us. We're to expect them.
~ Peter said sufferings are to test our faith.
~ Like Job or Peter, satan might want to sift us as wheat.
~ James says that suffering produces endurance.

God's purpose for our suffering is always motivated from love. It's His grace that helps us through it. Even if we're being spanked, it's because He loves us and knows it's for our good. He's producing something special in us that only suffering can do.

1 Peter 5:10, 11
After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 4:12-14
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

 

[graceNpeace]

Why do we have to suffer?

Pretty simple.
We live in sinful world where bad things happen.
In order for us to avoid as much of this as possible whether it be illness, physical pain, or emotional pain we have to be aware of these things otherwise we could not react to them and avoid them.
Sadly, some things, certain diseases and traumas may not go away, and we are left with long-term suffering.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Here's another verse about suffering that is good to keep in mind as we are going through our time of trial:


Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


No matter how bad we think we have it, there is a time of glory coming that we cannot compare to our deepest sorrow / time of suffering. Our minds just cannot fathom the manifestation (revealing) of the sons of God (Rom 8:19).

Also ... check out 1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.