Deut 5 shows the OT law was given only to the Jews, it was never given to Gentiles or Christians.
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Deut 5 shows the OT law was given only to the Jews, it was never given to Gentiles or Christians.
Those that do not obey law are outlaws/sinners/lost. Therefore those that do not obey Christ, Heb 5:9, cannot be saved.
God is not looking for sinless perfection, but a faithful obedience.
Those who claim Christ did not take the OT law out of the way, why is it they are not keeping that OT law - ALL of it?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Your asking the wrong question.
The question is. Why do you think you can obey enough to NOT be condemned. Considering that obedience to ALL the law is required.
Your either condemned by the law. Or your saved by it, there is no inbetween.
seabass
Yep, but those Christ died for do obey the Law, through Christ who obeyed it for them, so it is written Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
That word Righteous Dikaios :
1.righteous, observing divine laws
1.in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
Its a Gift to them through Jesus Christ !
Yep, but those Christ died for do obey the Law, through Christ who obeyed it for them, so it is written Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
That word Righteous Dikaios :
1.righteous, observing divine laws
1.in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
Its a Gift to them through Jesus Christ !
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I don't. I am not the one saying we can. You are. (even though I am sure you will deny it)
So ask yourself that question.
Prior to the law of Moses, God had a law in place many refer to as the Patriarchal law, which Abraham was under. God separated the Jews out from the rest of humanity and gave them the law of Moses. Gentiles would have continued to live under the Patriarchal laws. But all these OT laws were taken out of the way by Christ on His cross making them inactive. Those OT laws that condemned murder was replaced with Christ's NT law that also condemns murder. Nine of the ten commandments of the law of Moses are also found in Christ's NT law except remembering the Sabbath day. Acts 20:7 God brought the disciples together on the first day of the week.
Paul condemned the Galatians for leaving the NT, Gal 1:4ff, saying they were following a false gospel for going back to keep the OT law of circumcision thinking they could be justified by keeping that law of Moses. For going back to the OT Paul told them they had quit obeying the truth, Christ is dead in vain if righteousness comes by that OT law, they had fallen from grace for going back to the OT law. Paul also said they were debtors to the WHOLE law. James said a person guilty of one point of the law is guilty of ALL the law.
Do those who say the OT law is still active keeping the whole law?
seabass
You made the statement earlier:
And Deut 5:1-3 does not say that ? You made a false claim ! You are adding to scripture !
You made the statement earlier:
And Deut 5:1-3 does not say that ? You made a false claim ! You are adding to scripture !
Heb 10:1ff is speaking of the law of Moses.
The law of Moses was based upon the blood of bulls and goats that cannot remit sins.
Christ's NT covenant is based upon the prefect sacrifice of Christ that can remit sins.
I prefer to be under Christ's NT law.
The above is also a reason both laws cannot co-exist side by side for there are two many basic differences between the two.
AGAIN - the OT law was done away with by Christ's cross, Col 2:14. but Christ's NT law replaced that OT law so men that break Christ's NT law are not sinless.
P
phil112
Guest
I don't obey the law. As a matter of fact, I couldn't care less about it. It is totally irrelevent to me. To say we obey the law thru Christ is to display a total ignorance of scripture.
What is so hard to understand about Galatians 2:19? What part of that simple scripture puzzles you so?
We are no longer under the authority of the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14-15, Galatians 3:25
Paul along with all the writers of the New Testament make it plain that we are not under the law but under grace, they also plainly teach that if we continue in sin we are not living under grace but remain carnal.
The law exposes what sin is, the law shows the lawless why they are not living by grace. The law teaches us that without Christ we are incapable of pleasing God. We are condemned by the law that we might receive mercy through the grace of God. God condemned all that he might show his love and mercy to all through Jesus Christ.
We are no longer bound to observe the 613 laws given by Moses to the children of Israel. We are made righteous in Christ and live by the grace of God. All flesh is condemned by the law, that all flesh might be forgiven by God in Jesus Christ. Under the law all die, but under grace all are raised to life.
The law is the witness to the world why all perish, Jesus Christ is the witness to the world that God has forgiven them and promised to raise all from the dead. Those who refuse God's mercy and love perish, those who accept his mercy and love shall be raised with Christ to everlasting life.
Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy.
Paul along with all the writers of the New Testament make it plain that we are not under the law but under grace, they also plainly teach that if we continue in sin we are not living under grace but remain carnal.
The law exposes what sin is, the law shows the lawless why they are not living by grace. The law teaches us that without Christ we are incapable of pleasing God. We are condemned by the law that we might receive mercy through the grace of God. God condemned all that he might show his love and mercy to all through Jesus Christ.
We are no longer bound to observe the 613 laws given by Moses to the children of Israel. We are made righteous in Christ and live by the grace of God. All flesh is condemned by the law, that all flesh might be forgiven by God in Jesus Christ. Under the law all die, but under grace all are raised to life.
The law is the witness to the world why all perish, Jesus Christ is the witness to the world that God has forgiven them and promised to raise all from the dead. Those who refuse God's mercy and love perish, those who accept his mercy and love shall be raised with Christ to everlasting life.
Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy.
Well that explains a lot...
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
What is it about Mat 5:17-19 that you can't quite grasp? Especially verse 19?
Can you show me a definition of the Law of Moses beign based on the blood of bulls and goats? What part of bulls and goats does this talk about...
Exo 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
Here is another...
Exo 22:14 "And if a man borrows anything from his neighbor, and it becomes injured or dies, the owner of it not being with it, he shall surely make it good.
Oh and by the way, what is Christ's Law?
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/92049-commandments-jesus-christ-5.html#post1546662
Brother, Jesus said all the law is hang on love.
What else we need? You said blood of Jesus. Yes Jesus shed His blood because he Love.
Love is the spirit of the law. Jesus is the real Sabbath.
Animal blood, Sabbath is just shadowing of Jesus the Real Sabbath.
[h=3]Colossians 2:13-17[/h]King James Version (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Jesus is the real rest
I read good article about Sabbath.
As a third point here, the specific effort from which God rested was creation. The text says, "So God rested from all his work which he had done in creation" (Gen 2:3). This is the last account of any creative activity. Man was made and then God rested, and there has been no creation since. Man is the last effort of God in creation, on the physical level. Therefore this sabbath, this rest upon which God entered, is still continuing today. God is not creating physically today. God is ceaselessly active in many, many ways, but not in creation. In the fifth chapter of John, when Jesus was in the synagogue the Jews were very distressed because he had healed a man on the sabbath day. The Pharisees accused him of breaking the Sabbath and Jesus answered them by saying, "My Father is working until now, and I am working," (cf, John 5:17). His argument was that it was proper for him to do a deed of mercy on the sabbath day because he was simply imitating his Father who was ceaselessly active in mercy and love on his sabbath day, his long rest. God had stopped creating but he was still busy in a thousand different ways. Thus the sabbath means that God's creative activity has ended.
Even evolutionists acknowledge this. Interestingly enough, many evolutionists admit that man is the end of the evolutionary ladder, and that nothing further has been evolved since the producing of man. We cannot agree with them as to how man came into being, but it is interesting that they agree at this point that there is no further evidence of development beyond man.
As a fourth point we must therefore recognize that the weekly sabbath, i.e., Saturday, is not the real sabbath. It never was, and it is not now. It is a picture or a reminder of the real sabbath. The true sabbath is a rest; the Jewish sabbath is a shadow, a picture of that rest. All the Old Testament shadows pointed to Christ. They were predictions, foreviews, of the coming of the One who would fulfill all these remarkable things. Every lamb that was brought as an offering was a shadow of the work of Christ. Every burnt offering, every bit of incense that was offered, was a picture of the fragrance of Jesus Christ. The tabernacle was a shadow of him. The high priest, in his garments and his office, was a shadow of Christ as our High Priest. Read the book of Hebrews and you will see how beautifully all this is brought out. These Old Testament shadows were looking forward to the coming of the One who would fulfill these and thus end them. When the work of Jesus Christ was finished the shadows were no longer needed.
We behave very similarly today. Some twenty-two years ago when, as a much younger man, I was in Hawaii, I found myself engaged to a lovely girl who lived in Montana and whom I hadn't seen for three or four years. We were writing back and forth in those lonely days, and she sent me her picture. It was a beautiful picture and I showed it to all my friends dozens of times. I propped it up on the desk and I would look at it at least three or four times a day. It was all I had to remind me of her and it served moderately well for that purpose. But one wonderful day she arrived in Hawaii and I saw her face to face. I didn't spend much time with the picture after that, nor have I since. The other day I was cleaning out the garage and ran across the picture. It was still a beautiful picture, and I noted that she had not changed very remarkably since those days, but I found that the picture was quite incomplete and unsatisfying. When the real thing came there was no longer any need for the picture.
This is exactly what happened with these Old Testament shadows, including the Sabbath. When the Lord came, and his work was ended, making possible the true fulfillment of God's intention in the Sabbath, the picture was no longer needed. The weekly sabbath ended at the cross. Paul specifically says this. In the letter to the Colossians he confirms it to us. In Chapter 2, beginning with Verse 13, he says,
As a third point here, the specific effort from which God rested was creation. The text says, "So God rested from all his work which he had done in creation" (Gen 2:3). This is the last account of any creative activity. Man was made and then God rested, and there has been no creation since. Man is the last effort of God in creation, on the physical level. Therefore this sabbath, this rest upon which God entered, is still continuing today. God is not creating physically today. God is ceaselessly active in many, many ways, but not in creation. In the fifth chapter of John, when Jesus was in the synagogue the Jews were very distressed because he had healed a man on the sabbath day. The Pharisees accused him of breaking the Sabbath and Jesus answered them by saying, "My Father is working until now, and I am working," (cf, John 5:17). His argument was that it was proper for him to do a deed of mercy on the sabbath day because he was simply imitating his Father who was ceaselessly active in mercy and love on his sabbath day, his long rest. God had stopped creating but he was still busy in a thousand different ways. Thus the sabbath means that God's creative activity has ended.
Even evolutionists acknowledge this. Interestingly enough, many evolutionists admit that man is the end of the evolutionary ladder, and that nothing further has been evolved since the producing of man. We cannot agree with them as to how man came into being, but it is interesting that they agree at this point that there is no further evidence of development beyond man.
As a fourth point we must therefore recognize that the weekly sabbath, i.e., Saturday, is not the real sabbath. It never was, and it is not now. It is a picture or a reminder of the real sabbath. The true sabbath is a rest; the Jewish sabbath is a shadow, a picture of that rest. All the Old Testament shadows pointed to Christ. They were predictions, foreviews, of the coming of the One who would fulfill all these remarkable things. Every lamb that was brought as an offering was a shadow of the work of Christ. Every burnt offering, every bit of incense that was offered, was a picture of the fragrance of Jesus Christ. The tabernacle was a shadow of him. The high priest, in his garments and his office, was a shadow of Christ as our High Priest. Read the book of Hebrews and you will see how beautifully all this is brought out. These Old Testament shadows were looking forward to the coming of the One who would fulfill these and thus end them. When the work of Jesus Christ was finished the shadows were no longer needed.
We behave very similarly today. Some twenty-two years ago when, as a much younger man, I was in Hawaii, I found myself engaged to a lovely girl who lived in Montana and whom I hadn't seen for three or four years. We were writing back and forth in those lonely days, and she sent me her picture. It was a beautiful picture and I showed it to all my friends dozens of times. I propped it up on the desk and I would look at it at least three or four times a day. It was all I had to remind me of her and it served moderately well for that purpose. But one wonderful day she arrived in Hawaii and I saw her face to face. I didn't spend much time with the picture after that, nor have I since. The other day I was cleaning out the garage and ran across the picture. It was still a beautiful picture, and I noted that she had not changed very remarkably since those days, but I found that the picture was quite incomplete and unsatisfying. When the real thing came there was no longer any need for the picture.
This is exactly what happened with these Old Testament shadows, including the Sabbath. When the Lord came, and his work was ended, making possible the true fulfillment of God's intention in the Sabbath, the picture was no longer needed. The weekly sabbath ended at the cross. Paul specifically says this. In the letter to the Colossians he confirms it to us. In Chapter 2, beginning with Verse 13, he says,
And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it [nothim; it, the cross].
Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)
That should make it clear. This is why the claims of the Seventh Day Adventists, the Seventh Day Baptists, and other groups, that Christians changed the sabbath, are absurd, ridiculous. They claim that the Pope changed the sabbath by a papal edict from Saturday to Sunday, and that around the third or fourth century Christians began to celebrate Sunday rather than Saturday, out of obedience to this papal edict. But nothing could be further from the truth. History does not corroborate that in any degree. The Sabbath has always been Saturday and it always will be. It is the seventh day of the week. Sunday has always been the first day of the week. It has never been a sabbath, and it is pure legalism to call it a sabbath or to treat it as one. It is not a day of rest or restricted activity and it is not designed as such. It is the first day of the week; to Christians, the Lord's day.Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)
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phil112
Guest
You poor reprobate. Christ was talking to jews. Paul was talking to me and you. Christ told Paul what to tell me and you. What will you say to Christ on that day when He asks you why you cherry-picked His word? I suggest you start practicing - it's gonna have to be a REAL GOOD answer, y'know.
No one is to obey the law of Moses (Gal 2:19) but is to obey Christ's NT law, as Paul was under law to Christ, 1 Cor 9:21. Everyone is under Christ's law whether they know it or not or like it or not.
Oh, so we cannot go by the teachings of Christ? He was only kdding?
Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.' " - NKJV
I guess you suppose that Christ is not God? Or we just disregard what He taught?
Oh and the reprobate thing? Thanks...
Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
Heb 9:18-20
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
So the law of Moses was dedicated, consecrated, initiated upon the blood of bulls and goats. Christ's NT consecated with Christ's blood, Heb 9:11-15
The NT contains Christ's law.