Why do you consider dead men "great men of the faith"?

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Hakawaka

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2021
451
259
63
#1
I have noticed a few things, and I have been guilty of it too, so don't think im high horsing anyone here.

Some Christians tend to believe that people in the past were somehow more righteous or "better" Christians than people today. This is why there are some denominations like the orthodox and catholic that place really great value on saints and asking for their intercession. I was talking with a catholic recently and he was defending his view saying the saints are not dead and we arent praying to them but asking them to pray for us, kind of like asking your buddy to pray for you. And I asked him a question he couldnt answer: "How do you know Saint _insertnamehere_ is in heaven?" We didnt know these people, we had no idea what they believed. Even one of the recently deceased POPES was turned into a saint! That should let you know.

Thats when I realized its not just catholics that do this. We non-catholics also do this. I used to do this. I would study the book of Revelation and when I got into a verse I would look up biblehub.com , see commentaries from Gill, Benson, Clarke etc. and read what they had to say. Thats when I realized, wow, these guys have no idea what they are talking about. They all were historicists, but because the system is impossible to maintain they differ in their explanations, which are all equally ridicilous, men being fish, common men being grass, trees being the nobles of western rome, just ridicilous commentary. Ideas that you could never get from the text itself, but you need them to tell you how it is.

I have also heard things like "Abraham was a Jew" from John MacArthur and others. Guys who are supposed to be scholars and pastors and highly educated in the Bible. Yet people will hear them say that, repeat it, and it turns into fact. When in reality the word "Jew" comes from the word "Judah" which is ONE of the 12 tribes of Israel, 12 sons of Jacob (A.k.a Israel). So when Abraham lived there was no jews, no israel, none of it. Yet this guy doesnt know that? How could it be? Is this a mistake or intentional deceit?

All this to say, dont fall for the experts. There are no experts, there are no professional christians, there are no great men of the faith who you should listen to and learn from. These guys dont know anything special. They go to a seminary and parrot what they heard. Always check it for yourself.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,812
2,863
113
#2
Conflation?
I think we may have a conflation of points, a conflation of the thesis.


The OP starts with the concept of "great men of the faith" specifically referring to righteousness/walk, and then seems to conflate that with doctrinal views and scholarship.

I think we're accidentally conflating righteousness with scholarship, or even with particular doctrinal views WITHIN scholarship.
These are not the same.
Righteousness is not the same as scholarship, and righteous is not the same as particular doctrinal views.


Conclusion:
1.) it's an interesting topic, but I think we need to pick ONE THESIS, and stick with it, rather than accidentally shifting the thesis to something else.
2.) It's fine to talk about scholarship of past Christians, or righteousness/walk of past Christians... but those are different topics.
3.) I believe there ARE many reasons to think many great Christians of the past had both a stronger WALK with the Lord, and a greater level of SCHOLARSHIP. But although I hold that view, it's not the point of my post.


God Bless, and have a great weekend.

.
 
Oct 24, 2012
17,399
719
113
#3
I have noticed a few things, and I have been guilty of it too, so don't think im high horsing anyone here.

Some Christians tend to believe that people in the past were somehow more righteous or "better" Christians than people today. This is why there are some denominations like the orthodox and catholic that place really great value on saints and asking for their intercession. I was talking with a catholic recently and he was defending his view saying the saints are not dead and we arent praying to them but asking them to pray for us, kind of like asking your buddy to pray for you. And I asked him a question he couldnt answer: "How do you know Saint _insertnamehere_ is in heaven?" We didnt know these people, we had no idea what they believed. Even one of the recently deceased POPES was turned into a saint! That should let you know.

Thats when I realized its not just catholics that do this. We non-catholics also do this. I used to do this. I would study the book of Revelation and when I got into a verse I would look up biblehub.com , see commentaries from Gill, Benson, Clarke etc. and read what they had to say. Thats when I realized, wow, these guys have no idea what they are talking about. They all were historicists, but because the system is impossible to maintain they differ in their explanations, which are all equally ridicilous, men being fish, common men being grass, trees being the nobles of western rome, just ridicilous commentary. Ideas that you could never get from the text itself, but you need them to tell you how it is.

I have also heard things like "Abraham was a Jew" from John MacArthur and others. Guys who are supposed to be scholars and pastors and highly educated in the Bible. Yet people will hear them say that, repeat it, and it turns into fact. When in reality the word "Jew" comes from the word "Judah" which is ONE of the 12 tribes of Israel, 12 sons of Jacob (A.k.a Israel). So when Abraham lived there was no jews, no israel, none of it. Yet this guy doesnt know that? How could it be? Is this a mistake or intentional deceit?

All this to say, dont fall for the experts. There are no experts, there are no professional christians, there are no great men of the faith who you should listen to and learn from. These guys dont know anything special. They go to a seminary and parrot what they heard. Always check it for yourself.
thank you for seeing in belief to Father and Son for yours personal first above everything else
then one loves as God does, How?
Not repeating, just loving willingly everyone as id done by Son, going to that cross willingly, who definitely did not have to go there did he?

I suggest a couple of books that might help you deeper in your insight I see Daddy giving you
The Naked Gospel ( Andrew Farley) and Classic Christianity (Bob George)
I read them, as I saw to read them and learned more about our freedom in God done for us by Son to us as resurrected, not dead any longer
God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead
He came and did what is now done for ua all to be freed from stress
Thank you in what you see given you to share