Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?

[just-me]

We are not under law at all. The Bible states, the law has been abolish, nailed to the cross Etc. We are under grace through faith.

Where is that scripture that says the law is abolished? I have never read that. Please enlighten me.

 

[crossnote]

Where is that scripture that says the law is abolished? I have never read that. Please enlighten me.

It's not that the law has been abolished but in a certain sense we have.

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

 

[Kerry]

Crossnote you just preached the cross, knowingly or not. No law can save us, no law can sanctify us, no law can justify us. Only the cross. This is what most and Cobus miss.

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote you just preached the cross, knowingly or not. No law can save us, no law can sanctify us, no law can justify us. Only the cross. This is what most and Cobus miss.

That's why it's 'cross-note' (drum roll pls.)

 

[Least]

Least, God Bless you sis, You have so much good to share, and you have been such a blessing to both of us. I just wanted to mention one more thing. A covenant is an agreement, and the agreement contains stipulations/judgments. Those stipulations can be blessing by adhering to the agreement, and consequences due to the failure of one, or both parties, not abiding by it. God didn't fail, we failed as the human race. So the covenant is the container of the agreement with many stipulation written within. I just didn't want to be confusing.

God bless you too Brother,

I agree because the scriptures back it up.

Deuteronomy 28 goes into that in depth. There are different accounts where Moses gathered the people and spoke various instructions that God gave him to speak. When this happened the people responded with:

Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exodus 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

So that is how a covenant was set in place. I'm certain that when they agreed to follow the laws, statutes and judgments that God had for them, that it was a heartfelt matter. Yet with time, most of the people did opposite of what they agreed to.
(more than once, I might add.) Just a side thought....maybe that is why God told them to "remember" so often. How shortsighted we can be...

They could still repent and turn back to HIM, there are many example in the scriptures where this happened.

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[just-me]

We are not under law at all. The Bible states, the law has been abolish, nailed to the cross Etc. We are under grace through faith.

Where is that scripture that says the law is abolished? I have never read that. Please enlighten me.

Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Matthew 5:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
So how do we reconcile these two scriptures seeing that they seem to contradict each other?

Ephesians seems to refute Matthew and some will say, “all is fulfilled according to verse 18, because Jesus fulfilled the law, and fulfill is to abolish.”

Then someone else will say, “heaven and earth have not passed away yet.” Who are we to believe? We all know the answer to that. Believe God’s Word, not each other’s interpretations of God’s Word. One of the hardest things for a carnal nature to overcome is the pride that is manifested because “WE” are right!

Let’s take it step by step. In Ephesians it says, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity.”
From the Strong’s Concordance
Abolished=entirely idle, inactive, as not in motion
Enmity=the hostility that gives way for opposition

For more detail, the first part of Ephesians 2:15 could read “Having stopped the motion by carrying the opposition, and hostility.” So far we are good. Where the problem arises is this next phrase. “Even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.”
Now we have proven the point that the law has been abolished, but oopsy-daisy, Jesus says it isn’t.

Where we can reconcile these scriptures, is to also incorporate the next verse in Ephesians
Ephesians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

So, instead of connecting the phrase “even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;” with the word “abolished,” we must connect the word “abolished” to “enmity.”

To summarize:
The law can no longer instigate enmity/a division between God and man. Scripture tells us that the enmity, or division is gone, and the law, which is still relevant, can no longer instigate a division.

Jesus Christ has reconciled this past division putting God and man together.

The sacrifice of our Lord can now be compared with the actions of the High Priest in the Levitical Law as a shadow of the fulfillment in Christ Jesus. In order to cast a shadow there must be light shining on substance.
Colossians 2:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Hebrews 10:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

The Mosaic Law isn’t gone today, it has a different purpose, and it is unable to do what it used to in that it used to cause “enmity” between God and man.

If the law is abolished, then Paul, Peter, and John wouldn’t have mentioned it in the New Testament. It’s still there for good reason, but there is one thing that it doesn’t do any longer, and that is to cause enmity. So when we argue about this, let us all keep in mind that we are talking about what the law contained in the Old Covenant that is no longer in the New Covenant. It’s not the law that’s the problem, it’s what it used to do then, and doesn’t do now for those that are in Christ. If we are not in Christ we are under the law that causes “enmity” between man and God.

 

[just-me]

Deuteronomy 28 goes into that in depth. There are different accounts where Moses gathered the people and spoke various instructions that God gave him to speak. When this happened the people responded with:

Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exodus 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

So that is how a covenant was set in place. I'm certain that when they agreed to follow the laws, statutes and judgments that God had for them, that it was a heartfelt matter. Yet with time, most of the people did opposite of what they agreed to.
(more than once, I might add.) Just a side thought....maybe that is why God told them to "remember" so often. How shortsighted we can be...

They could still repent and turn back to HIM, there are many example in the scriptures where this happened.

Good stuff
Luke 22:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24-28 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

 

[Brother_Don]

Proverbs 28:9, He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayers shall be an abomination....Proverbs 29:18, Where there is no vision, the people parish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he....Romans 2:13, For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.....Luke 16:17, and it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than it is for one tittle of the law to fail.

 

[overcomer2]

I don't agree that to fill something full means its abolished. You fill a coffee cup full of coffee filled full with coffee. You don't abolish it. Simply he filled full the law. The law in its state is as full as it can hold (so to speak). For instance, with the law you could not touch a man's wife. Through Christ you may not even think on her. A true Christian will see that the way is straighter and more narrow then before.
[h=3]Ephesians 2:15[/h]Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]By his death he ended the angry resentment between us, caused by the Jewish laws that favored the Jews and excluded the Gentiles, for he died to annul that whole system of Jewish laws. Then he took the two groups that had been opposed to each other and made them parts of himself; thus he fused us together to become one new person, and at last there was peace.
Matthew 5:17
King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Ephesians 2:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Matthew 5:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So how do we reconcile these two scriptures seeing that they seem to contradict each other?

They don't contradict each other because abolish and destroy are different words with different meanings. That is not apparent, though, from this translation.

Christ didn't come to dismantle the law, but to render it powerless by virtue of a more excellent way, i.e., the spirit. By fulfilling the law he rendered it powerless.

abolish
G2673 καταργέω katargeo
1. to make entirely idle

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
76.26 καταργέωc: to render ineffective the power or force of something—‘to invalidate, to abolish, to cause not to function.’ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ‘to abolish the Law of commandments consisting of regulations’ Eph 2:15; ἵνα τὰ ὄντα καταργήσῃ ‘in order to abolish those things that are’ 1 Cor 1:28. In rendering this expression in 1 Cor 1:28 it may be quite necessary to stipulate the reference to τὰ ὄντα, and in this context the contrast between τὰ ὄντα and τὰ μὴ ὄντα may perhaps be best expressed as ‘those things that are not regarded as important in order to abolish those that are regarded as important.’ The rendering of these expressions depends, of course, upon the manner in which the preceding context from verse 26 is rendered.

destroy
G2647 καταλύω kataluo
1. to loosen down (disintegrate)
2. (by implication) to demolish

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
20.54 καταλύωa; καθαιρέωc; καθαίρεσιςa, εως f: to destroy completely by tearing down and dismantling—‘to destroy, to tear down, destruction.’
καταλύωa: οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται λίθος ἐπὶ λίθῳ ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται ‘there will not be one stone left on another which will not be torn down’ Lk 21:6.
καθαιρέωc: καθελῶ μου τὰς ἀποθήκας καὶ μείζονας οἰκοδομήσω ‘I will tear my barns down and build bigger ones’ Lk 12:18. It may be important in rendering Lk 12:18 to indicate clearly that there is purpose in tearing down the barns, and that presumably materials resulting from the dismantling of the barns would be used in building bigger ones.
καθαίρεσιςa: ἀλλὰ δυνατὰ τῷ θεῷ πρὸς καθαίρεσιν ὀχυρωμάτων ‘but God’s powerful weapons, with which to tear down strongholds’ 2 Cor 10:4.

 

[just-me]

I don't agree that to fill something full means its abolished. You fill a coffee cup full of coffee filled full with coffee. You don't abolish it. Simply he filled full the law. The law in its state is as full as it can hold (so to speak). For instance, with the law you could not touch a man's wife. Through Christ you may not even think on her. A true Christian will see that the way is straighter and more narrow then before.
Ephesians 2:15

Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]By his death he ended the angry resentment between us, caused by the Jewish laws that favored the Jews and excluded the Gentiles, for he died to annul that whole system of Jewish laws. Then he took the two groups that had been opposed to each other and made them parts of himself; thus he fused us together to become one new person, and at last there was peace.
Matthew 5:17
King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Very well put

 

[nl]

Either Jesus is LORD or self is lord. Tyrants don't like to submit to the rule of law. They like to be a masters of their own destiny. We all have a bit of tyrant tendencies within ourselves. God is righteous. Sin dishonors God and injures people. The law restrains evil and helps to define sin.

 

[crossnote]

The Law is not the problem it is we. The Law is good but because of the indwelling sinful nature, sin uses the law against us.
Our solution is our being crucified and buried with Christ, filled with His Spirit, raised with Him in newness of life, and living a life Trusting Jesus.

Romans 7:9-13 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

 

[haz]

Back to the question of the OP...

Galatians 4:21-23, 29 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Galatians 6:12-13 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?.........
..........But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now

Here we see the battle between flesh and Spirit and why there is no agreement over the law.

Those born after the flesh seek to be under the law determining everyones righteousness by works of the law. And in addition they persecute those born after the Spirit (those believing on Jesus and thus their faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5).

 

[haz]

Bottom line to think about;
There are usually more visits than posts. The world is watching. What do you think?

Bottom line is that all Christians should be very careful about what they preach. None of us are perfect in word. Anyone who teaches error will receive stricter judgement.

James 3:1
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

It's interesting to note the example of error that James 3 uses below.
James 3:6-12
The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind.
But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
With it we bless (love) our God and Father, and with it we curse (judge/condemn under the law) men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation). My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring (Christians) send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter (judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening?

A spring does not send forth both fresh water and bitter.
Likewise, we cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

We should all be careful of what we preach. Don't ever add to the gospel, mixing grace with works of the law.

 

[Isdaniel]

Why dont yo worship idols hmmmm we are not under the law

 

[nl]

If you are not abiding in spiritual union and conformity with Christ then the law does apply in showing yourself to be a sinner in need of Christ the Savior from the righteous wrath of God. It is better to be humble and ashamed of your sins than proud and ashamed of Jesus Christ.

 

[just-me]

Also posted on "What laws are still valid for Christians"

Too all reading this.......
Use it to die daily, and pick up our cross daily a follow. Use it to appreciate the sacrifice of Jesus, and to learn the aspects of presenting yourselves as a living sacrifice. Study it to know how to love God's way, not our way.

1 Corinthians 15:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Luke 9:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Hebrews 7:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Romans 12:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Leviticus 19:9-18 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I amthe LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: Iam the LORD.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Keep in mine that there are exactly the same number of days between the Passover, and the giving of the Mosaic Law at Sinai, as there is between the death of Christ, and Pentecost. It's all relative, the law and the prophets, along with New Testament teaching by the apostles, and Peter and John,and the letters to Timothy etc.

Exodus 19:1-16 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that yego not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people thatwas in the camp trembled.

Keep in mind that all of what Jesus taught before His death was Old Testament.

Hebrews 9:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

May God bless all that understand this.

 

[KohenMatt]

This is our web site. The Purpose Of The Mosaic Law (Part 1 of 5)

Anything that you would like to copy and post you can. This thread is meant to find out why Christians fight Christians in the plain view of atheists, non-believers, and newborn Christians.

This thread is also for the purpose of considering, and musing about what the onlookers to this contention must be thinking.

This thread is for the purpose of defining whether or not contentious conversations are profitable for edification, or are we truly making progress by unchanging disagreements?

Are we supposed to embrace the Mosaic Law after we come to the knowledge of the truth, or are we supposed to reject it, as a thing of the past after being converted to Christianity?

Bottom line to think about;
There are usually more visits than posts. The world is watching. What do you think?

The biggest disclaimer that needs to be made on this topic for both "factions" is the purpose, goal or motivation of following or not following the Torah (law).

Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

The foundational question for all of our relationships in this forum should be "Is this person saved by the grace and mercy of the life, death and resurrection of Yeshua (Jesus)? If they say they are, then they are. It isn't our place (for either "faction") to say otherwise. We aren't each other's Holy Spirit. The whole chapter of Romans 10 is talking about how someone lives in order to obtain righteousness. For the majority of the folks here who are Torah followers, we would claim that our righteousness is in faith. Trust in that, and let God sort out the details.

Perhaps there are cult-like Messianic groups and churches out there that preach righteousness through works, but we should be VERY careful in labeling all Messianics, Hebrew Root-ists and Torah followers as such. For every cult-like Messianic group, you can point to a cult-like Christian group or church that preaches some form of "heresy". Even within certain denominations, you can find cult-like factions that are abnormal for the denomination itself. So labeling, on either side is more harmful than good, especially to those passer-bys in this forum.

So again, go back to Romans 10. If people on these forums are professing salvation through grace, trust that. We need to not read into people's words in order to trap them and interrogate out of them how they really aren't saved by the grace they say there are. Instead, how about asking WHY they do the things they do, and how those things draw them closer to God? About how keeping the Sabbath gives them revelation and fulfillment. Approach it from the perspective of, "Matt is a brother because He is saved by faith. Why does Matt eat Kosher? What did He learn from celebrating Passover this year?" Try that instead of assuming that BECAUSE I did these things, I've negated my salvation, or am on the verge of doing so. Look at these things I do as an aspect of my faith in God, not something that pushes against it.

And on the other side of that page separating Malachi and Matthew , us Torah-followers need to be careful that we don't make ourselves out to be better than others because we choose to follow the Torah, and they don't. Every single person in this forum would say that they know more about their relationship with God now than they did last year. Does that mean we were in error last year? Of course not. We're all still maturing. So similarly, there are things we don't know now, that we will know next year. That's how many of us feel in regards to the Torah. Before we knew about it and did it, we still had a passion for truth and life. Knowing Torah is another facet of that. Similarly, those who don't follow the Torah aren't lesser citizens, they're just in a different point in their relationship with God. None better, none worse. We're all being transformed day by day, and we need to trust that most of are being as faithful to the Word and the Holy Spirit as we can be, instead of pessimistically assuming the opposite.

Matthew 7
1 Do not judge so that you will not be judged.2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."

I think the Kingdom of God would best be served by these verses. Have caution not to judge. Have caution in not digging for something you want to see for the purpose of debate or correction. Look at the fruits in people's lives, and see if it's fitting of a true disciple of Jesus. If more people in this forum (on both sides of this topic) would spend more time encouraging and edifying, and less time trying to expose and divide, A LOT more progress and Kingdom-building would take place. If we all would spend more time focusing on removing the plank out of our own eyes, and less about the assumed specks in other people's lives, the Kingdom of God would be better off. Once that happens, we can spend more time figuring out how to add to the Kingdom, not beating each other up.

Matt

 

[just-me]

I think the Kingdom of God would best be served by these verses. Have caution not to judge. Have caution in not digging for something you want to see for the purpose of debate or correction. Look at the fruits in people's lives, and see if it's fitting of a true disciple of Jesus. If more people in this forum (on both sides of this topic) would spend more time encouraging and edifying, and less time trying to expose and divide, A LOT more progress and Kingdom-building would take place. If we all would spend more time focusing on removing the plank out of our own eyes, and less about the assumed specks in other people's lives, the Kingdom of God would be better off. Once that happens, we can spend more time figuring out how to add to the Kingdom, not beating each other up.

Matt

Thank you! So very well portrayed. I am just assuming that some just might have a deep fear of parts of scripture, and its revelation to their heart, mind, and soul. Compassion is necessary toward them, if that is the case. I have also prayed for them, and myself alike. We can expect God to not be parcel toward anyone of us concerning His love or judgments. All His judgments are righteous and pure forever.
Amen