Why God Allows Adversity
- Thread starter emekrus
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
In 90´, after the Velvet Revolution, the first contact with the "western Christianity" was through pentecostal/charismatic preachers from the USA, Australia and similar.
Cities´ ice hockey stadiums were full of people hungry for hearing about God. Policemen, soldiers, doctors, all sorts of people.
Preachers began to preach about health, wealth, performed "healing", threw out "demons" etc.
Many people ended in psychiatry hospitals with post-hypnotics blocks, depressions and similar. Some people had to be dehypnotised by doctors.
The big disappointment came and now, there are like 2 charismatic chuches with about 10 members each, in my town. Its similar to the rest of the republic.
Now, the republic is one of the most atheist country in the world. In 90´, thousands or hundreds were attending these new charismatic churches, they all left it after the boom, with various hurts, both physical and mental.
I wonder, what would the country look like if the first preachers after the revolution were calvinists, lutherans, baptists... and not pentecostals.
Cities´ ice hockey stadiums were full of people hungry for hearing about God. Policemen, soldiers, doctors, all sorts of people.
Preachers began to preach about health, wealth, performed "healing", threw out "demons" etc.
Many people ended in psychiatry hospitals with post-hypnotics blocks, depressions and similar. Some people had to be dehypnotised by doctors.
The big disappointment came and now, there are like 2 charismatic chuches with about 10 members each, in my town. Its similar to the rest of the republic.
Now, the republic is one of the most atheist country in the world. In 90´, thousands or hundreds were attending these new charismatic churches, they all left it after the boom, with various hurts, both physical and mental.
I wonder, what would the country look like if the first preachers after the revolution were calvinists, lutherans, baptists... and not pentecostals.
-
1
- Show all
My dear, what you are saying was already prophesied by Jesus himself. He did say in the last days, false prophets and teachers will arise and deceive many. So the happening of these things should be expected. This is happening at a very high rate in every country of the World.
In my country, aberrations similar to what you just related are common. For instance, there are stage-managed miracles, people using some false prophetic authority to collect money and properties from members. And so many others beyond enumeration.
But from what I have discovered, these vice is not only found in the Pentecostal denominations. Even the orthodox groups you mentioned are also involved. For instance, in one of the orthodox churches, they use allots of unscriptural tactics to raise funds. The ministers there are highly political. Some even assassinate fellow ministers for envy... Just to mention but a few.
But the fact that there are fakes should easily inform the wise that there also the genuine.
But on the other hand, people now reject both the false and true together. And by so doing, they make themselves prey to the devil.
Instead of throwing in the towel, it is better to sharpen our discernment with the help of the Indwelling Holy Spirit in us and the unadulterated word of God. Like the Berean Christians, after we've been taught, we should go home and open-mindedly cross-check by the help of the Holy Spirit through meditation.
And when we do listen or cross-check, we shouldn't allow our past hurt or experiences or pet doctrines becloud our revelation.
This is exactly what has happened to so many today. They allow their past experience and hurt drag them to an extreme tangent where they begin to falsify the written word of God. And I don't see how anyone can be justified with any excuse for calling God a liar by asserting that his word is false just because of peoples' aberration.
In my country, aberrations similar to what you just related are common. For instance, there are stage-managed miracles, people using some false prophetic authority to collect money and properties from members. And so many others beyond enumeration.
But from what I have discovered, these vice is not only found in the Pentecostal denominations. Even the orthodox groups you mentioned are also involved. For instance, in one of the orthodox churches, they use allots of unscriptural tactics to raise funds. The ministers there are highly political. Some even assassinate fellow ministers for envy... Just to mention but a few.
But the fact that there are fakes should easily inform the wise that there also the genuine.
But on the other hand, people now reject both the false and true together. And by so doing, they make themselves prey to the devil.
Instead of throwing in the towel, it is better to sharpen our discernment with the help of the Indwelling Holy Spirit in us and the unadulterated word of God. Like the Berean Christians, after we've been taught, we should go home and open-mindedly cross-check by the help of the Holy Spirit through meditation.
And when we do listen or cross-check, we shouldn't allow our past hurt or experiences or pet doctrines becloud our revelation.
This is exactly what has happened to so many today. They allow their past experience and hurt drag them to an extreme tangent where they begin to falsify the written word of God. And I don't see how anyone can be justified with any excuse for calling God a liar by asserting that his word is false just because of peoples' aberration.
Well, you are later to the party. Here is the OP from a post I started back in 2016, that went 75 pages. Some good Bible discussions on it. This is the OP.
"If you wish to talk about opinions, please see the other thread which is going on right now. I want to keep this thread to discuss what the BIBLE says about the Word Faith teaching, and why the Bible says it is wrong.
Again, another copy and paste of something I already wrote, coming from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Bible and Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.
As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, although if anyone wants to talk about it, in terms of what the Bible says, please feel free to post Bible verses on it. I do not believe in this false prosperity gospel and I would be willing to post the Scriptures that explain why. (I am NOT saying that God doesn't bless us, but again, it is not part of the atonement or the Bible!)
Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.
If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?
There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:
1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer
2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)
Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.
So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:
1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.
As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!
"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10
Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:
The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.
Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.
All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.
The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts
a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.
"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Debt. 28:21-22
It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.
b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)
c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8
The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.
"If you wish to talk about opinions, please see the other thread which is going on right now. I want to keep this thread to discuss what the BIBLE says about the Word Faith teaching, and why the Bible says it is wrong.
Again, another copy and paste of something I already wrote, coming from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Bible and Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.
As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, although if anyone wants to talk about it, in terms of what the Bible says, please feel free to post Bible verses on it. I do not believe in this false prosperity gospel and I would be willing to post the Scriptures that explain why. (I am NOT saying that God doesn't bless us, but again, it is not part of the atonement or the Bible!)
Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.
If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?
There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:
1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer
2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)
Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.
So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:
1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.
As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!
"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10
Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:
The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.
Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.
All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.
The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts
a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.
"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Debt. 28:21-22
It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.
b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)
c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8
The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.
-
1
- Show all
Part II:
It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."
"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge everyone to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 40 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. (And the entire bible in French!) I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/word-of-faith-a-look-at-what-the-bible-says.144809
I am happy to discuss what the Bible really says. I have a lot more written on this topic, digging into the Bible. In other words, if you think the Bible in any way, shape or form supports Word Faith, I would love to show you where and how you are wron
It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."
"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge everyone to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 40 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. (And the entire bible in French!) I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/word-of-faith-a-look-at-what-the-bible-says.144809
I am happy to discuss what the Bible really says. I have a lot more written on this topic, digging into the Bible. In other words, if you think the Bible in any way, shape or form supports Word Faith, I would love to show you where and how you are wron
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Great writing Sister Angela, To be very honest with you(and God is my witness) I have read your post with a very unbiased and open mind.
But after reading through, here is exactly my finding: This is a philosophical and academic work on the scripture. And it is very very unsafe for anyone to put his faith on. Why do I think so? It is a known fact that anyone that is 'cerebral' like the "scholar" you cited in your post above, can easily interpret the scripture to suit his or her experience.
I could easily quote hundreds of thesis from more authoritative scholars that contradicts this man's opinion. It's just that I have made up my mind to limit myself to the unadulterated written word of the scriptures.
This school of thought asserts that divine health is not covered in the atonement, strictly from a philosophical point of view. He daubs the citation of Peter on the words of Isaiah 'metaphorical' on his point of view. Then he expects us to base our faith on that.
Well, I believe people should be smarter than that. I for one cannot base my faith on someone's opinion.
I base my faith on the verbatim written word of God. I just swallow the written word, hook, line and sinker. Then I apply it to my practical daily life.
And to be honest, doing so has been very very proving in my life. For instance I believe the exact undiluted word of God concerning divine health and healing--He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.by his stripes we are healed (Matt8:17, 1Pet2: 24). I base my faith on the clear unadulterated plain meaning of these scriptures. And over the years this has been very true in my life. Myself and everyone that I know that stand on the plain meaning of this word have been enjoying divine health (including my wife).
That's not to say that we haven't got health challenge, but when these health challenges suffice, we quickly activate our faith in what these scriptures says and press on till all the symptoms disappear by God's grace.
For instance, while my wife was pregnant with my child, as she came from the hospital with the result of the scan, the report says she had a Foetus and a Fibroid. On getting the result, I just asked her; "Do you want to believe that?" she said never. And eventually that was the last we discussed about that fibroid, till she was delivered of my son. And till date, there is no trace of any fibroid in her system.To God alone be all the glory.
Then at another time, she complained of a lump in her breast, suggesting a cancerous growth; and still standing on God's word, I just reminded her of how the fibroid issue was handled. I still asked her, what do you want to believe? She replied that sickness can not be in her body. And within a few days, she told me the lump was no longer there.
And till date- to the glory of God-- we've never had a trace of it. These is just to mention but a few to prove the infallibility of the unadulterated word of God by simple child-like faith.
As it stands, I already have more than enough practical proof of the sureness of God's divine health provision by the stripes or wounds of Jesus Christ. So what do you expect? I should rather believe an acclaimed "Scholar" or a tested and practically proven truth of God's word in my life and that of countless others? I leave you to be the judge.You are educated and smart so I know you are capable of good judgement...
But after reading through, here is exactly my finding: This is a philosophical and academic work on the scripture. And it is very very unsafe for anyone to put his faith on. Why do I think so? It is a known fact that anyone that is 'cerebral' like the "scholar" you cited in your post above, can easily interpret the scripture to suit his or her experience.
I could easily quote hundreds of thesis from more authoritative scholars that contradicts this man's opinion. It's just that I have made up my mind to limit myself to the unadulterated written word of the scriptures.
This school of thought asserts that divine health is not covered in the atonement, strictly from a philosophical point of view. He daubs the citation of Peter on the words of Isaiah 'metaphorical' on his point of view. Then he expects us to base our faith on that.
Well, I believe people should be smarter than that. I for one cannot base my faith on someone's opinion.
I base my faith on the verbatim written word of God. I just swallow the written word, hook, line and sinker. Then I apply it to my practical daily life.
And to be honest, doing so has been very very proving in my life. For instance I believe the exact undiluted word of God concerning divine health and healing--He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.by his stripes we are healed (Matt8:17, 1Pet2: 24). I base my faith on the clear unadulterated plain meaning of these scriptures. And over the years this has been very true in my life. Myself and everyone that I know that stand on the plain meaning of this word have been enjoying divine health (including my wife).
That's not to say that we haven't got health challenge, but when these health challenges suffice, we quickly activate our faith in what these scriptures says and press on till all the symptoms disappear by God's grace.
For instance, while my wife was pregnant with my child, as she came from the hospital with the result of the scan, the report says she had a Foetus and a Fibroid. On getting the result, I just asked her; "Do you want to believe that?" she said never. And eventually that was the last we discussed about that fibroid, till she was delivered of my son. And till date, there is no trace of any fibroid in her system.To God alone be all the glory.
Then at another time, she complained of a lump in her breast, suggesting a cancerous growth; and still standing on God's word, I just reminded her of how the fibroid issue was handled. I still asked her, what do you want to believe? She replied that sickness can not be in her body. And within a few days, she told me the lump was no longer there.
And till date- to the glory of God-- we've never had a trace of it. These is just to mention but a few to prove the infallibility of the unadulterated word of God by simple child-like faith.
As it stands, I already have more than enough practical proof of the sureness of God's divine health provision by the stripes or wounds of Jesus Christ. So what do you expect? I should rather believe an acclaimed "Scholar" or a tested and practically proven truth of God's word in my life and that of countless others? I leave you to be the judge.You are educated and smart so I know you are capable of good judgement...
Not every "lump" must equals cancer. Most of "lumps" are totally harmless, lipoid bumps and similar. There are so many possibilities.
Actually, most of people are healthy in the most of time. Thats the goodness of God, our bodies are made to be very defensive to all diseases.
The fact that you or me are healthy in our current age does not base any evidence that my or your theology is the right one.
I agree that Mat 8:17 is about physical healing, its obvious.
I do not agree that it means every Christian must be healed every time. It was one of messianic signs. Jesus also resurrected some people. It does not mean that all Christians who die must be also physically resurrected in this life, too.
I think that 1 Peter 2:24 is not about physical healing, the context is about sins.
Actually, most of people are healthy in the most of time. Thats the goodness of God, our bodies are made to be very defensive to all diseases.
The fact that you or me are healthy in our current age does not base any evidence that my or your theology is the right one.
I agree that Mat 8:17 is about physical healing, its obvious.
I do not agree that it means every Christian must be healed every time. It was one of messianic signs. Jesus also resurrected some people. It does not mean that all Christians who die must be also physically resurrected in this life, too.
I think that 1 Peter 2:24 is not about physical healing, the context is about sins.
Perhaps He will use them to show others their great faith in God DESPITE the adversity. Perhaps He will even KEEP them in the wheelchair for the rest of their life because He wants their testimony of faith despite adversity to reach others who would be encouraged to greater trust in THEIR adversity. And in that case, the adversity for one would be for the purpose of the blessing of many others rather than a punishment or as a result of a lack of trust in Him.
-
2
- Show all
And we know that our Lord suffered for our great good and that we are being made more and more into His likeness, so why would we immediately assume that some suffering of our own would not be worked for the good of ourselves and our brothers? If we trust Him, we should assume it WILL be worked for our good and theirs. And this would cause great rejoicing that we could suffer like our Lord for others.
-
1
- Show all
Well, you know many people believe the bread Jesus used to feed the multitudes was very large to reach everyone. That it wasn't much of a miracle after all. And I don't know why you didn't say anything about the issue of the fibroid I mentioned. Why did you only mention that of the lump.
To add to that, Personally, I have had many health issues that was taken care of by God, strictly by my child-like faith in the plain written words that is now being daubed, 'metaphorical'. And for years now, I have been living sickness free to the glory of God.
And concerning 1 Peter 2:24, here you go again, 'thinking scriptures', instead of accepting it for exactly what it says. Toeing the line of logic and philosophy in scriptural interpretation is not that safe.
To add to that, Personally, I have had many health issues that was taken care of by God, strictly by my child-like faith in the plain written words that is now being daubed, 'metaphorical'. And for years now, I have been living sickness free to the glory of God.
And concerning 1 Peter 2:24, here you go again, 'thinking scriptures', instead of accepting it for exactly what it says. Toeing the line of logic and philosophy in scriptural interpretation is not that safe.
Because I know nothing about fibroids. I do not even know how to translate it to my language.
I probably did not get the point about the bread to feed the multitudes. I have never heard of anybody who believes what you described and I do not know how it relates to the conversation we are having...
I have also had many health issues that disappeared in time, thats normal. Body is self-reparing mosf ot the time. Also do not forget all the medical care we are getting, starting with various vaccinations and ending with medication.
1 Peter 2:24 - I do accept what it says - sins atonement. You are the one adding something foreign to the context.
I probably did not get the point about the bread to feed the multitudes. I have never heard of anybody who believes what you described and I do not know how it relates to the conversation we are having...
I have also had many health issues that disappeared in time, thats normal. Body is self-reparing mosf ot the time. Also do not forget all the medical care we are getting, starting with various vaccinations and ending with medication.
1 Peter 2:24 - I do accept what it says - sins atonement. You are the one adding something foreign to the context.
Thank God you don't know anything about fibroids.
Concerning the bread Jesus used to feed the multitude, many a thinker like yourself, thinks what Jesus did wasn't much of a miracle but more of normal thing. In just exactly the way you see the disappearing of the lump I talked about to be only normal.
Well, for your information, I don't take any medication (in any form). I only and always handle all my health challenges by faith in God's unadulterated word alone. And this has been so for several years to the glory of God. And this is not in anyway saying that medication is a sin. But we go this length in our faith, in order to prove the truth of God's word to the nay-sayers and unbelievers, who tend to share God's glory with medication.
As for 1 Peter 2: 24, the word of God clearly says "by whose stripes you were healed". Healing is for sickness. While forgiveness is for sin.
But all the same, I do not have dominion over your faith. You can believe whatever you want. Mine is working for me just exactly as the plain word says. I am enjoying divine health and healing.Because the word of God says by his stripes I was healed(past tense). And I take it for exactly what it is --healing and health.
Concerning the bread Jesus used to feed the multitude, many a thinker like yourself, thinks what Jesus did wasn't much of a miracle but more of normal thing. In just exactly the way you see the disappearing of the lump I talked about to be only normal.
Well, for your information, I don't take any medication (in any form). I only and always handle all my health challenges by faith in God's unadulterated word alone. And this has been so for several years to the glory of God. And this is not in anyway saying that medication is a sin. But we go this length in our faith, in order to prove the truth of God's word to the nay-sayers and unbelievers, who tend to share God's glory with medication.
As for 1 Peter 2: 24, the word of God clearly says "by whose stripes you were healed". Healing is for sickness. While forgiveness is for sin.
But all the same, I do not have dominion over your faith. You can believe whatever you want. Mine is working for me just exactly as the plain word says. I am enjoying divine health and healing.Because the word of God says by his stripes I was healed(past tense). And I take it for exactly what it is --healing and health.
To read 1 Peter 2.24 as a physical healing, you really need to cut the last part of the sentence out of its context.
But the full text is this:
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls."
The healing is spiritual, about sin, about not being gone astray, about returning to the Shepherd of our souls.
The full text says "you have been healed for you have returned to the shepherd of your souls".
This is the healing.
But the full text is this:
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls."
The healing is spiritual, about sin, about not being gone astray, about returning to the Shepherd of our souls.
The full text says "you have been healed for you have returned to the shepherd of your souls".
This is the healing.
-
1
- Show all