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But assumptions on what Calvinists believe carries most of the weight to the argument!
Once the false assumptions are removed, it's a very small argument.
Why Here in the BDF?
- Thread starter preacher4truth
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The bolded I agree with....however...that does not change the truth or validity of my original post and or points made......God said clearly that he raised Pharaoh up for the direct purpose of making his power known and even HARDENED his heart to lead him down that path after he had hardened it himself......God knew ALL of this before the man was brought into existence.
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Ellsworth1943
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Embracing ignorance, lying, and not one of the chosen------
I guess I will be called Satan himself next.
If you people treat everyone who disagrees with you like this----
Such a Christian attitude
This place is depressing.
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Nothing.
God does all the accomplishing! We just enjoy him all the more because he carries the accomplishing. Our yoke is light, so we're pulling what we're supposed to pull, instead of doing all the work ourselves.
We're ex-Death Row prisoners pointing out the guy who justified us to the other prisoners. And not on our merit. On HIS!
You? After all, you're carrying the whole burden on yourself.
Pretty sad that Romans 8:28-39 doesn't belong or apply to you.
All the saved are elect, 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
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God accomplished all of it, all the glory goes to his name:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
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Ellsworth1943
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Pretty sad that Romans 8:28-39 doesn't belong or apply to you.
All the saved are elect, 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
And now you know I am not one of the elect? Your arrogance is on display.
Yeah, I agree God know's what's going to happen...but that is not saying that he didn't give us choice in the matter...Pharaoh was given chance after chance and saw many signs and wanders, yet he chose to harden his own heart, and that was before God chose to make it even harder...Pharaoh became a reprobate of his own doings....He did not like to retain God in his heart and God gave him over to a reprobate heart to do those things which were not convenient... and yes, God did then make an example of him, and he was not the only one that did this and God made an example of...I think that is why it also says today if you will hear his voice harden not your hearts. God gives us all a chance, but if we harden our hearts and continue to do so then we can and will become reprobates...but that is on us...
I think this is our warning not to harden our own hearts...
Hebrews 3
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
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Ellsworth1943
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If God didn't "chosen" people, (And, I'm playing games with English, not making a snide remark to you), then explain:
Abel,
Noah,
Abraham,
Joseph,
Moses,
Joshua,
David,
Jonah,
Job,
Samson,
Gideon,
etc.
God chose all those guys! God has been in the choosing business since "Let there be light." He didn't suddenly start choosing when he came to Earth. He has always had himself a people.
There's even historical evidence he had himself a people in what would become Rome and what would become China before Moses! Possibly before Abraham.
No one won a thing, but OK, sorry you've chased yourself off and employed more ad hominem.
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Read this!
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus#Theology[/URL]
And then tell me it was so wrong to burn a heretic. Frankly, had we not become so "civilized" by the world's standards, it wouldn't be bad to burn more heretics today. (Okay, I'm more into humane deaths, so probably would go with the needle.) Sure beats having the church buy into the world philosophy as the water-down, inefficient "gospel."
And, if you think I'm wrong there, then why did God himself destroy so many of his own people in the wilderness and why did he kill that couple in the NT church for not giving up their profit from the sale of their land?
Imagine Christianity today thinking there is no Trinity, or Father, Son and Spirit are no big thang!
Why is it arrogant for anyone to heed God's calling, to walk away from God's calling would be the height of arrogance not to mention foolish, seems to me.
28) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[SUP]i[/SUP] have been called according to his purpose.
29) For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
30) And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Romans 8:28-30
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Exactly what I'm getting from you.
One major difference though, I haven't brought any false charges about your side of this argument, and all you've done is brought false charges and "assumptions" on Calvinists.
You're the one who came barreling in with false assumptions, so, if you're depressed start there.
I probably could do that, but it might take me all day...We'll start with Abel...He brought God the best he had (a better sacrifice) Cain just threw something together, I guess,
Seriously though, Cain wasn't giving God the best that he had and that was his choice...I don't think God had already predestined it...and then chose not to accept it...Just my thoughts though...
As for the other guys, like I said it would take all day to go through it...but my opinion is that they sought God with their whole hearts and God chose them to do a work for him...Just like he does today...we are not all given the same work to do. God chooses us all for specific works...We are all different and have unique qualities and God can use each of us for his purpose, but we have to be willing just like Noah, and all the rest, were willing to do what God told them to do.
Again that's just my thoughts on it, anyhow
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I've got no idea if you're elected or not. I can only guarantee election for two people I know, and suspect many more are too, but just can't guarantee it for them. (It took me 30-40 years of really knowing the two before figuring out they're the persevering type. lol)
I've got this though -- if you are elected, you either are new in Christ, or haven't done much studying over the years.
The arrogance is on you. No one said if you were elected or not, but now you bring that up as another false assumption.
How far do you want to keep going before you actually listen to answers after asking questions?