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Why I no longer believe in the penal substitution theory of the Atonement
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Locoponydirtman
Guest
If you don't believe in substitionary, (penal, vicarious, how ever you want to phrase it) atonement, you are not Christian. Made alive in Christ through his death and resurrection is Christianity. There is nothing else to exonerate us of our sin, except that Christ bore it himself on the cross. If you don't believe this; Christ died in vain, and there is no hope of salvation.
This is all that there is to Christianity; God created man to his image and be his image in his creation. Man deceived by the devil in the form of a serpent then sinned and was thusly no longer holy but brought sin into his lineage forever, God then by the law paved away for he himself to be manifest on this earth that he may then satisfy justice, righteousness, and holiness by being the perfect sacrifice for all sin, and being too perfect to remain dead; resurrected and ascended to his rightful place in heaven. That we being fallen from holiness, and righteousness are redeemed and restored by faith in him so that his sacrifice, and thus also his righteousness is imputed to us.
Any and all works we do is out of gratitude for what he has done for us, nothing more. He attained it all for us and if we are his we believe this, and are compelled by gratitude to love him who saved us, and therefore we do good works. If your works are for any other reason you must repent, we can't earn what is not possible for us to obtain, being broken and wretched in vile sin we can never be anything more than covered in the filth of it. Except that Christ remove us from the filth and be our new covering.
This is all that there is to Christianity; God created man to his image and be his image in his creation. Man deceived by the devil in the form of a serpent then sinned and was thusly no longer holy but brought sin into his lineage forever, God then by the law paved away for he himself to be manifest on this earth that he may then satisfy justice, righteousness, and holiness by being the perfect sacrifice for all sin, and being too perfect to remain dead; resurrected and ascended to his rightful place in heaven. That we being fallen from holiness, and righteousness are redeemed and restored by faith in him so that his sacrifice, and thus also his righteousness is imputed to us.
Any and all works we do is out of gratitude for what he has done for us, nothing more. He attained it all for us and if we are his we believe this, and are compelled by gratitude to love him who saved us, and therefore we do good works. If your works are for any other reason you must repent, we can't earn what is not possible for us to obtain, being broken and wretched in vile sin we can never be anything more than covered in the filth of it. Except that Christ remove us from the filth and be our new covering.
At 1st I thought it was stupid to start a thread that the op himself disagreed with.
I mean at the very heart of Christianity is God in the Flesh, in the form of His Son Jesus Christ, dying to pay for our sin.
And then I read this incredibly heretical post, and it appears this thread has smoked out some people who believe and promote blasphemous doctrine.
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UnderGrace
Guest
Seems like this would be the kind of question and atheist might ask and not just be thrown out there nonchalantly just for the sake of discussion.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It says might BE SAVED. BE SAVED. it does not say IS Saved. Theres a difference. Is something will be that means it has not happened it means future sense. We will BE saved yes and I agree we will one day BE in Heaven. I am not in heaven. I will BE given a heavenly body perfect and free from sin, I do not currently live in a heavenly body. So when people say they are saved thats not completely true because we have not died yet. We will BE saved. And the bible shows us who will BE saved. It never says the one who believes IS saved. Thats the point I was trying to make. When people believe they are saved then that takes away their responsibility to do what God commands us to do because the person has been taught they are saved and their sins are forgiven but the bible doesnt teach anywhere that we are saved but rather will be saved. That means its a commitment. If we slack or slumber and you rest assured in the belief that you are saved already, then you may be found when the master comes back and you are unaware and doing things you are not supposed to, under the belief that anything u do wont interfere with the fact that you belive you are "saved". But thats man made doctrine. Bible doesnt say that. The bible says even the demons believe and they tremble. My faith is not that im saved but that God loves me and If I continue to do what God asks then He wont let me perish. He wont allow me to fall. But I have to make the choices God doesnt force us to do the right thing. The Holy Spirit helps us in this. If I just believed I was saved I know how much easier it would be to sin and rest assured that Im saved and thats just not what God shows me to do. I trust God im sorry I cant believe mans doctrine of this "im saved" religion. Its false
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UnderGrace
Guest
We are sad because you have missed the Gospel message entirely.
You take out one verse from John and state that it means future tense. The future is any moment from this moment forward.
We are called to be born from above in this life time.
Be born again? Yes i believe that. Im a born again Christian. I recieved the Holy Spirit. I look forward to the promise of salvation. Im not dead yet. And I spread the gospel so yes I believe in the gospel. I didnt get back to you sooner yesterday because I was witnessing to someone who needed Christ in their life.
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UnderGrace
Guest
If you are born from above then you are saved, it is a gift that is not revocable and it is apart from works.
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Keep In mind that the SPIRIT gives life,sounds like you are equating the flesh as the real you.ALTHOUGH once the Spirit Is made perfect we WILL seek to purify our MINDS even as our spirit Is pure.
John 21:20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?”
21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”
In this passage you can see the apostles spread the rumor among the bretheren that John would not die. But they misinterpreted Jesus had said. If even the apostles can misinterpret what Jesus said in His presence how much more may we be misinterpretting things? Its clear that we are human and can sometimes misinterpret something said to mean something entirely wrong. So when I said I dont believe the saying we "ARE" saved as apposed to will "BE" saved is based on scriptures. Its in other passages as well. Take Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So the passage says he who believes shall "BE" saved. It does not read "Is" saved which would refer to as something already happened in the present tense. If you have scripture that clearly says a person IS saved i can look ot over. Im open to scripture I choose to walk in truth so I wouldnt deny something the bible teaches.
When did the new covenant of Grace began, in your opinion? Are you aware that when Jesus was preaching in the 4 Gospels, it was mostly under the old covenant of law?
The flesh is not the real us. It wars in us against the Spirit. Our flesh is sinful in nature, thats why Jesus prayed to the Father if this cup can be taken from me, but if not let not My will but Your will be done. He said the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Im sure it was not easy. He prayed ferverntly and sweat dripped as drops of blood. Thats not some picnic Jesus was walking to. He went willingly but the point im making is the flesh is weak. It goes contrary to what the Spirit that is the Holy Spirit expects or wants us to do. So we war with our members like Paul teaches and we are to kill the flesh daily and live in the Spirit. You think mainstream so called Christians really believe they ought to fight off sin? They believe their sins are forgiven and they are saved. But thats a lie from satan. We war daily with our flesh and resist temptation. Not our will but thy will be done. So how can someone walk in sin and claim "im saved" all sins forgiven. Ezekiel 18 clearly says starting at verse 21“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
Thats Gods words not mine. Jesus taught us to walk in love. To love God first above all things and to love our neighbor. He taught us to turn from sin. He left us the Holy Spirit that we should recieve for a comfort and a guide to teach us all things. And the Holy Spirit is the baptism that Jesus Christ gives His saints. These belong to Him and should walk according to Christ and not of this world.
Jesus is the new covenant. He would be the one to baptize us with the Holy Spirit as shown in the book af Acts. The old covenant was the circumsicion of the flesh, new circumsicion is of the heart. Getting rid of sin and allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us a new creation. I dont read the bible as hermeneutics do. All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and never contradicts itself.
So if someone were to ask you now, "What is the Gospel" that churches talk about, how would you reply him?
So you are saying that you believe the new covenant happened when Jesus was began his ministry at the age of 30? If that is the case, when you read a verse like that, how would you interpret it?
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
When did Jesus shed his blood for us, when he was 30 years old?
You have stated you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh. You also stated that Jesus is not the penal substitution for our sin debt.
Both are GRAVE heresies. How do you know you are born again since both of the things you are against are necessary for the Gospel unto Salvation?
Romans 8:9-12
King James Version
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
You are talking about renewing the mind.Which AFTER your spirit was made perfect by GOD It's only reasonable that you would present your body/mind a living sacrifice.
Romans 12:1-2
King James Version
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.