Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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Chester

Chester

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UnderGrace said:
Do you think God is not able to deal with a person when they sin..... what happened to Ananias and Sapphira?
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Not sure what you are asking? Of course God deals with sin - whether in the believer or unbeliever there are always consequences for sin. I am not sure we know for sure if Ananias and Sapphira were believers or not - I would need to look at the text to see if it says - salvation is not determined by actions and works, but by faith.

The difference is that for the unbeliever only one sin holds the wages of eternal death - thus all those not believing in Jesus and the blood atonement are doomed to eternal hell.

For the believer every sin is forgiven because of the blood of Jesus Christ. But forgiveness does not mean that the believer is relieved of all the consequences of the sin. If a believer commits a murder he still has to go to jail!! If he overeats he is going to get fat! :eek:
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M

Margo74

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Chester said:
Not sure what you are asking? Of course God deals with sin - whether in the believer or unbeliever there are always consequences for sin. I am not sure we know for sure if Ananias and Sapphira were believers or not - I would need to look at the text to see if it says - salvation is not determined by actions and works, but by faith.

The difference is that for the unbeliever only one sin holds the wages of eternal death - thus all those not believing in Jesus and the blood atonement are doomed to eternal hell.

For the believer every sin is forgiven because of the blood of Jesus Christ. But forgiveness does not mean that the believer is relieved of all the consequences of the sin. If a believer commits a murder he still has to go to jail!! If he overeats he is going to get fat! :eek:
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sins of believers are committed deliberately via one's free will and must be repented or they will not be forgiven .. Christ died to "pay the punishment debt due Adam's and Eve's sin" .. as for Ananias and Sapphira, they knew and were believers and sinned against the Holy Spirit in their lying and dropped dead .. they would be in the lake of fire for eternity .. have any of you committed UNREPENTANT adultery, murder, lying, theft, and the many many other sins .. if you have done so and have not repented and do not repent, you will be among the other believers consigned to the lake of fire for their unrepentant sinfulness .. REPENT or PERISH is real
 
U

UnderGrace

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#1,524
Chester said:
Not sure what you are asking? Of course God deals with sin - whether in the believer or unbeliever there are always consequences for sin. I am not sure we know for sure if Ananias and Sapphira were believers or not - I would need to look at the text to see if it says - salvation is not determined by actions and works, but by faith.

The difference is that for the unbeliever only one sin holds the wages of eternal death - thus all those not believing in Jesus and the blood atonement are doomed to eternal hell.

For the believer every sin is forgiven because of the blood of Jesus Christ. But forgiveness does not mean that the believer is relieved of all the consequences of the sin. If a believer commits a murder he still has to go to jail!! If he overeats he is going to get fat! :eek:
]
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I guess my point is that God deals with his children so the whole becoming "the worst sinner in the world" is the wrong perspective.
 
J

Jackson123

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Chester said:
Belief in OSAS means that if a person is truly saved there is absolutely no sin nor any amount of sin that will separate a person from God.

Most (at least on CC) that hold to OSAS will hold to views such as this:
(a) if a person does sin ongoingly or violently this simply shows they were never born again
(b) a born again Christian cannot and absolutely will not under any circumstances keep on living a life of sin
(c) if a born again Christian does sin violently and ongoingly he will repent and come back to God before he dies
(d) before a Christian would get to such a point God would actually bring about their death (so that they do not lose their salvation)

Very few here on CC who hold to OSAS will say it is OK or normal for a born again believer to live a life of sin. I have been told though that even if a born again believer sins like Hitlar that he is still saved.
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Truly saved no sin or sin but not big enough to lose salvation?

Seem to me no sin and not enough sin is 2 different believe.

So basically osas believe sin bring you to hell, but God will make truly save will repent before he die, am I correct?
 
M

Margo74

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dcontroversal said:
Exactly.....time is short and hell always has room for one more!!!

It opens it's mouth without MEASURE!!
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the road and gate to heaven are narrow and only a "few" find them .. the broad road is the road to hell and "many" find that ..
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Margo74 said:
the road and gate to heaven are narrow and only a "few" find them .. the broad road is the road to hell and "many" find that ..
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Yep....and the minority believes in eternal salvation by grace through faith with no stings attached......the MANY believe their works play a part.....!
 
U

UnderGrace

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Margo74 said:
how often does one need to be told, the gift of salvation is just that .. God's gift to ALL .. but not ALL accept it and not ALL who do accept it choose to keep it .. some who accept it misuse and abuse it and eventually lose it .. of the latter, some search to find it aka REPENT and retrieve it while others never search for it and have lost it forever aka have lost eternal salvation and have chosen eternal damnation .. no gift is eternally secure unless God and each person chooses to make it so and God does choose to make it so but not all who receive it choose to make it so .. only those whose names remain in the book of life are eternally saved but God does blot some names out of the book of life .. why? .. coz those persons chose to leave Him and go their own sinful way and never turn back aka REPENT ..
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You cannot return the gift of salvation anymore than you can return your earthly life.

If a gift can be reclaimed then it was never truly a gift, it was a loan and the bible never states salvation is a loan.
 
M

Margo74

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UnderGrace said:
Can you give me the scripture for this statement?
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1 Corinthians 16:13-14,22 - 13 Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. 14 Let all you do be done with love. 22 If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!
 
M

Margo74

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dcontroversal said:
Yep....and the minority believes in eternal salvation by grace through faith with no stings attached......the MANY believe their works play a part.....!
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lol .. "with no stings attached" .. I know you meant "strings" but "stings" works, too, in that if one believes they are saved simply by believing and do not realise they must love Jesus or be accursed and must obey His two great commandments and must repent when one fails to do so, there will be "stings" aplenty ..

1 Corinthians 16:,22 - 22 If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed.
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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Guojing said:
The problem with using the term "true believer" is that your argument pretty much becomes circular.

True believers also include works to be done, depending on your denomination, that can mean true believer get water baptized, follow the commandments, or in the Tribulation case, reject the mark of the beast.

To me, a believer is one that puts his faith in Jesus's Death Burial and Resurrection. That is what saves him in the church age.

But in ages past, before Jesus died, that has not happened yet, so people could not just rely on that belief to be saved and not do anything else, as Hebrews 11 stated.

In the ages to come, he also needs to reject the mark of the beast, in order to be saved.

That to me is better argument,
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Oh, Guojing, human reasoning is a stumbling block to God's Truth. God has hidden His knowledge from the wise. The terms you use to refer to "argument" are philosophy 101 - pure human reasoning.

God promised we would find Him when we seek Him diligently with all our HEART - not our mind.

When God calls us, He speaks to our heart - not our mind. Our hearts can find God, know Him and love Him. Our minds cannot. Faith is illogical to our minds - the mind cannot believe something that cannot be proven in the physical realm.

Faith is Heavenly knowledge that the Father gives us that we immediately know it is TRUE and we cannot refute it or deny it. It comes straight from the Father into our heart, completely bypassing our brains/minds. Our hearts receive it and tell our brains/minds to store the knowledge as UNDENIABLE TRUTH.

Faith is NOT Trusting God, Faith is knowing I can trust God.

In the heart of a true believer, is Faith that they were given by their Father in Heaven. Just as Peter said to Yeshua/Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." and Yeshua/Jesus responded that Peter was blessed to know this because flesh and blood had not revealed this Truth to him but, the Father in Heaven.

This same Faith from God - the Father, is the same Faith that a true believer has concerning their salvation.

I strongly encourage everyone that truly wants to know God, to love Him, and to be saved and born again to diligently seek God with all their HEART. He hides and waits for our hearts. :love:(y)
 
U

UnderGrace

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Margo74 said:
1 Corinthians 16:13-14,22 - 13 Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. 14 Let all you do be done with love. 22 If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!
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Accursed here does not mean to be sent to hell, it means to be removed from the congregation or loss of everything significant.
 
G

Guojing

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Lafftur said:
Oh, Guojing, human reasoning is a stumbling block to God's Truth. God has hidden His knowledge from the wise. The terms you use to refer to "argument" are philosophy 101 - pure human reasoning.

God promised we would find Him when we seek Him diligently with all our HEART - not our mind.

When God calls us, He speaks to our heart - not our mind. Our hearts can find God, know Him and love Him. Our minds cannot. Faith is illogical to our minds - the mind cannot believe something that cannot be proven in the physical realm.

Faith is Heavenly knowledge that the Father gives us that we immediately know it is TRUE and we cannot refute it or deny it. It comes straight from the Father into our heart, completely bypassing our brains/minds. Our hearts receive it and tell our brains/minds to store the knowledge as UNDENIABLE TRUTH.

Faith is NOT Trusting God, Faith is knowing I can trust God.

In the heart of a true believer, is Faith that they were given by their Father in Heaven. Just as Peter said to Yeshua/Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." and Yeshua/Jesus responded that Peter was blessed to know this because flesh and blood had not revealed this Truth to him but, the Father in Heaven.

This same Faith from God - the Father, is the same Faith that a true believer has concerning their salvation.

I strongly encourage everyone that truly wants to know God, to love Him, and to be saved and born again to diligently seek God with all their HEART. He hides and waits for our hearts. :love:(y)
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I suppose you are a lady from your display pic? I understand where you are coming from.

To me, faith is more straightforward. I have never seen Jesus in the flesh before, I have never seen him performing those miracles and dying on the cross, and resurrecting on the 3rd day. I have never seen a "sin" in my life, nor have I seen hell.

But because the Word of God tells me a story of someone like Jesus doing all those things and being raised from the dead to justify me from my sins, I put my trust that it really happened. He died for my sins and rose again for my justification.

This is like what Jesus told doubting Thomas about us, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe". :)
 
N

Nat2019

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Take a look closely at the chronology I pointed out earlier (in Rom4 and related passages):

Romans 4 -

"...For we are saying faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it credited? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith that he had while in the uncircumcision, for him to be father of all those believing while in uncircumcision, for the righteousness to be credited also to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those not only of circumcision, but also to those walking in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham during uncircumcision."


[see Genesis 17 in relation to the "befores" of this, and the "afters" of ^ this particular "divide/time-marker," if you will... Isaac wasn't even born yet (this was well before THAT even!), and it was a very long time even after he was born that Abraham "offered Isaac up"... and Hebrews 11:17-19 says (well after the v.8 [incident of] "By faith Abraham, being called to go out..."), vv.17-19 - "17 By faith Abraham, being tested, has offered up Isaac [James 2 example]. Even the one having received the promises was offering up his only begotten son, 18 as to whom it was said, “In Isaac your offspring will be reckoned,” b 19 having reasoned that God was able even to raise him out from the dead, from where he received him also in a simile" (<--meaning, it was as though he received him back from the dead)… so this example of his "offering up Isaac" is an example of "the TRIAL of your faith"/"testing," of it, that is, of a faith already in existence in one's life…]
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Yes God Tested Abraham:).
 
U

UnderGrace

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Romans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

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Guojing said:
I suppose you are a lady from your display pic? I understand where you are coming from.

To me, faith is more straightforward. I have never seen Jesus in the flesh before, I have never seen him performing those miracles and dying on the cross, and resurrecting on the 3rd day. I have never seen a "sin" in my life, nor have I seen hell.

But because the Word of God tells me a story of someone like Jesus doing all those things and being raised from the dead to justify me from my sins, I put my trust that it really happened. He died for my sins and rose again for my justification.

This is like what Jesus told doubting Thomas about us, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe". :)
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"The Word of God tells me a story.......I put my trust that it really happened." Do you KNOW that it really did happen?
 
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