Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Nat2019]

hello friend. my heart goes out for you. hope you are doing well God bless you thank you for opening up to us. may God grant you permanent victory.

however i want to ask one question, you said:


about being able to die again and born again again. how do you see these verses going with it:


Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

that looks like if its possible to fall away, its also impossible to come back. how do you or any other conditional security believers interpret those verses?

about being born again and dying again i have this verse, which says its incorruptible seed we are born of not corruptible:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Hi Melach sorry something happened to my messages. They joined somehow. I couldn't edit it.

Well the scripture I would use is-

Revelation 2:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 Consider how far you have "fallen"! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Notice the word word "fallen" is also in this scripture.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will ......depart....... from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

*Its possible to depart from the faith as shown above.

And yes "some" were not saved to begin with. But "some" were of the faith.

1 John 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

*Just because 1 john 2:19 exists we cant pretend 1 Timothy 4:1 Doesnt exist. Then it makes a one sided gospel. And only part truth... according to the bible.

Thanks😁

 

[Nat2019]

Because they can and do.

John 6:66
After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

 

[UnderGrace]

John 6:66
After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

A disciple is a learner.

 

[Nat2019]

Several times now you have used 2Timothy 5 to promote your works Gospel.

Tell us why you don’t finish the phrase with verse 13?

Ya know, where it says even if we are faithless He REMAINS faithful.

We cant sin all we want and go to heaven. I know some people want security in this belief system, but its actually not based on the bible. It feels more comfortable for many to believe God will accept them and they can do what they like without any consequences. I can understand why many believe this but it's not the gospel in the bible.

Once sin has an affect on you as it did on me, you might see the consequences on yourself and your family. I tell you this out of love. Because one day you might see what I have seen. One sin leads to more and in the end your taken over by sin. And you think you can be faithless to God... you use this scripture to show others you are eternally secure. It becomes a sense of pride to believe we cant ever be separated from God through our rebellion against him.

I dont want to offend you but I see your always justifying rebellion against God. I dont make Justifications for my sin but I am honest about my sins. And if I am self righteousness because I dont think I can live a sinful lifestyle in rebellion against God and go to heaven, you can think that. Because I think it's more prideful to think you can sin all you want without consequences. While the unbelievers go to hell according to you. But you can live exactly like them and not care about Gods word. And think you are going to heaven. I have to say this because I am fed up being called self righteous when I am not... people can say I work my way to heaven. But at least I dont believe I can keep willfully sinning and Go to heaven.

 

[PennEd]

Hi I haven't been on here for a while thanks for your reply. I will ask some questions.

Can
Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

Luke 11:28
But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

James 1:22-25
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming "obedient" to the point of death, even death on a cross.

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

James 2:17
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Whether or not the word "salvation" is involved in these passages these passages still need to be applied as a Christian according to these scriptures. I am not mentioning salvation but that the bible requires all Christians to put the word of God into practice.

These are not PRESCRIPTIVE, but rather DESCRIPTIVE passages.

I take ZERO credit for Christ saving me OR keeping me saved. It is offensive to the Lord say otherwise.

By saying I need to X in order to be saved or remain saved you are either giving yourself credit, or making Christ powerless.

 

[Nat2019]

These are not PRESCRIPTIVE, but rather DESCRIPTIVE passages.

I take ZERO credit for Christ saving me OR keeping me saved. It is offensive to the Lord say otherwise.

By saying I need to X in order to be saved or remain saved you are either giving yourself credit, or making Christ powerless.

What makes you think you dont have to put Gods word into practice? Because these ideas dont come from the bible.

Where in the bible does it say a Christian can continue In sin and God wont notice it? Meaning they disobey the bible. If the bibles not important for salvation then how can we change and have our minds renewed into the New creation God wants us to be... Its the depends on Jesus and his words....His words are important you know...

 

[PennEd]

We cant sin all we want and go to heaven. I know some people want security in this belief system, but its actually not based on the bible. It feels more comfortable for many to believe God will accept them and they can do what they like without any consequences. I can understand why many believe this but it's not the gospel in the bible.

Once sin has an affect on you as it did on me, you might see the consequences on yourself and your family. I tell you this out of love. Because one day you might see what I have seen. One sin leads to more and in the end your taken over by sin. And you think you can be faithless to God... you use this scripture to show others you are eternally secure. It becomes a sense of pride to believe we cant ever be separated from God through our rebellion against him.

I dont want to offend you but I see your always justifying rebellion against God. I dont make Justifications for my sin but I am honest about my sins. And if I am self righteousness because I dont think I can live a sinful lifestyle in rebellion against God and go to heaven, you can think that. Because I think it's more prideful to think you can sin all you want without consequences. While the unbelievers go to hell according to you. But you can live exactly like them and not care about Gods word. And think you are going to heaven. I have to say this because I am fed up being called self righteous when I am not... people can say I work my way to heaven. But at least I dont believe I can keep willfully sinning and Go to heaven.

Gosh. I hate to say it, but this post is filled with out and out lies and slander against me.

NONE of the things you claim here have I said or believe.

I am going to ask you politely to not lie about me, or what I have said again.

 

[Nat2019]

Gosh. I hate to say it, but this post is filled with out and out lies and slander against me.

NONE of the things you claim here have I said or believe.

I am going to ask you politely to not lie about me, or what I have said again.

I just want you to look at your own messages before you cast stones and I dont care who agrees with you on here because I surely don't. And you also need to view your own behaviour first. Thanks.

 

[PennEd]

I just want you to look at your own messages before you cast stones and I dont care who agrees with you on here because I surely don't. And you also need to view your own behaviour first. Thanks.

To prove you have lied about me. Produce a single post where I say It is ok to sin or where I have "justified rebellion against God".

Otherwise I will expect a heartfelt apology.

Slandering the brethren is a serious sin. Now let's see if you are going to add pride to the list.

 

[Nat2019]

Gosh. I hate to say it, but this post is filled with out and out lies and slander against me.

NONE of the things you claim here have I said or believe.

I am going to ask you politely to not lie about me, or what I have said again.

Dont make false claims about my beliefs then. Please ask me what I believe first. Because I am not a Jew I have stated it many times but no one believes me. I have said so many times I dont believe in my own works for salvation but I keep being told this even after I am expressing my struggles to others. Dont you think that's unkind. You will probably have alot of people agreeing with you and feeling sorry for you.

 

[PennEd]

Dont make false claims about my beliefs then. Please ask me what I believe first. Because I am not a Jew I have stated it many times but no one believes me. I have said so many times I dont believe in my own works for salvation but I keep being told this even after I am expressing my struggles to others. Dont you think that's unkind. You will probably have alot of people agreeing with you and feeling sorry for you.

Yeah. We can play the red X game all day if you like. It doesn't change the FACT that you sinned by lying about me.

Why don't you follow your own advice and repent or lose your salvation?

 

[Nat2019]

To prove you have lied about me. Produce a single post where I say It is ok to sin or where I have "justified rebellion against God".

Otherwise I will expect a heartfelt apology.

Slandering the brethren is a serious sin. Now let's see if you are going to add pride to the list.

To prove you have lied about me. Produce a single post where I say It is ok to sin or where I have "justified rebellion against God".

Otherwise I will expect a heartfelt apology.

Slandering the brethren is a serious sin. Now let's see if you are going to add pride to the list.

Yeah. We can play the red X game all day if you like. It doesn't change the FACT that you sinned by lying about me.

Why don't you follow your own advice and repent or lose your salvation?

Why cant you admit your own sins.. instead of pointing out mine. In the end God can judge my sins. And I haven't sinned by telling you that what you believe doesnt match up with scripture. And we cant do what we want and go to heaven. That's true biblically.

 

[PennEd]

Why cant you admit your own sins.. instead of pointing out mine. In the end God can judge my sins. And I haven't sinned by telling you that what you believe doesnt match up with scripture. And we cant do what we want and go to heaven. That's true biblically.

We're switching to thumbs down now? Cool!

You stated I said that it is ok to sin as much as you want. You also stated I justify rebellion of God.

Show me where I said EITHER of those things or apologize, or be shown as a fraud.

 

[Nat2019]

Why cant you admit your own sins.. instead of pointing out mine. In the end God can judge my sins. And I haven't sinned by telling you that what you believe doesnt match up with scripture. And we cant do what we want and go to heaven. That's true biblically.

Anyway I am still learning to behave in godly manner. But I am learning and my behavior isn't always perfect and I admit that. If God thinks I have sinned he can surely convict me. But I tell you that giving excuses for your sins won't free you from them. And I know this by experience. OSAS is a doctrine that promotes a comfort in sinful living. In rebellion to Gods word. It's a gospel that makes people feel good and secure. Nothing can pluck you from Gods hands and you can do what you want. The seal will never be broken, never having to say sorry for your sins or even being remorseful for them, because why do you have to......

 

[Nat2019]

We're switching to thumbs down now? Cool!

You stated I said that it is ok to sin as much as you want. You also stated I justify rebellion of God.

Show me where I said EITHER of those things or apologize, or be shown as a fraud.

So you dont need to Obey Gods word for salvation?...... You dont need to put Gods word into practice for salvation, you dont need to read your bible for salvation.

So if we dont live in accordance with Gods word how do we get salvation without "his word".

Because we came to him by "his word".

Without his word we cant be a new creation. Jesus without his word=no salvation..

No renewing of the mind without his word. Being made new in the spirit of our minds.

 

[PennEd]

So you dont need to Obey Gods word for salvation?...... You dont need to put Gods word into practice for salvation, you dont need to read your bible for salvation.

So if we dont live in accordance with Gods word how do we get salvation without "his word".

Because we came to him by "his word".

Without his word we cant be a new creation. Jesus without his word=no salvation..

No renewing of the mind without his word. Being made new in the spirit of our minds.

Post where I said sinning all you want is ok, or where I say rebellion against God is ok, apologize, or be shown to be a fraud.

 

[Nat2019]

Post where I said sinning all you want is ok, or where I say rebellion against God is ok, apologize, or be shown to be a fraud.[I /QUOTE]

Post where I said sinning all you want is ok, or where I say rebellion against God is ok, apologize, or be shown to be a fraud.

Penn ed I guess if anyone wants to follow Jesus and live as he did they are fraudulent and self-righteous arent they?. Because that person who actually cares about Gods word actually loves him. Many people who believe that we need to care about Gods words are called names.. and are deceivers apparently. Anyway why is a debate constantly about not having to obey Gods word. Why is this the main focus.

OSAS believers trying to find every scripture to say they are exempt from holy living and from obeying God. Anyway that's what I see on this chat forum.

 

[PennEd]

Still waiting for you to show me the post I made saying sinning all you want is ok, or rebellion against God is ok, or apologize, or be shown a fraud.

Do one of those things and then we can move on.

 

[Nat2019]

Still waiting for you to show me the post I made saying sinning all you want is ok, or rebellion against God is ok, or apologize, or be shown a fraud.

Do one of those things and then we can move on.

Penn ed I dont really owe anything to you. I am sorry to say. You never apologized or gave me evidence about what you said to me many times. My evidence is in the bible. You have seen the scriptures already many many times. Your views have no biblical basis but are Mainly personal comments about how unpleased you are about me, not needing to obey Gods word for salvation etc.. Any way I hope you take this advice. Goodnight.

 

[PennEd]

Penn ed I dont really owe anything to you. I am sorry to say. You never apologized or gave me evidence about what you said to me many times. My evidence is in the bible. You have seen the scriptures already many many times. Your views have no biblical basis but are Mainly personal comments about how unpleased you are about me, not needing to obey Gods word for salvation etc.. Any way I hope you take this advice. Goodnight.

Ok. As you have failed to post a single time I said it is ok to sin all you want or it is ok to rebel against God, yet are so full of the sin of pride that you cannot admit you lied, I will leave for all to see that you are a fraud.

I will now permanently ignore you and you may continue to work for your salvation til your heart’s content. Bye bye.