Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Guojing]

If we disown him... its possible to forsake God through our sins. We have free will. We are not puppets being controlled.

The problem with this particular belief is that an unbeliever cannot disown Satan in any way, whether renouncing or "doing good deeds".

So if a Christian can disown God thru sins but an unbeliever cannot disown Satan in any way, does that mean you believe the first Adam's disobedience was more powerful than the final Adam's obedience?

Reference: (Romans 5:12-19)

 

[mailmandan]

I believe John 5:24. But believing also needs OBEYING.

So how much "obeying" does it take before believing saves? It would appear that you teach we are saved "by" believing + obedience/works. That is not what we read in John 5:24 or in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28 etc..). Salvation by belief/faith + works is not what scripture teaches (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Faith without works is dead.

"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith (James 2:14) but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

So I dont just believe in "believing alone (demon faith)".

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

The bible says we need to believe and Obey for salvation and live according to Gods will and commands if we love him.

Works-salvationists tend to confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by faith + works.

So I wont just emphasize works but both need to be together. To make it complete like Abraham's faith.

So how many works does it take? In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

Guojing it doesnt say anywhere in the bible we are justified by the term "faith alone". So I cant believe it. And your assumptions are not actually what I believe. They are "your" view

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved/justified through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then its belief/faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" -- barren of works (James 2:14)

 

[Nat2019]

So how much "obeying" does it take before believing saves? It would appear that you teach we are saved "by" believing + obedience/works. That is not what we read in John 5:24 or in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28 etc..). Salvation by belief/faith + works is not what scripture teaches (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith (James 2:14) but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Works-salvationists tend to confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by faith + works.

So how many works does it take? In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Well I guess you want to keep debating that you dont have listen to what the bible says for salvation.... you are so adamant to prove you dont have to Obey God or listen to his will, to get salvation. You think you can get salvation by believing in God and doing nothing else.

 

[Nat2019]

The problem with this particular belief is that an unbeliever cannot disown Satan in any way, whether renouncing or "doing good deeds".

So if a Christian can disown God thru sins but an unbeliever cannot disown Satan in any way, does that mean you believe the first Adam's disobedience was more powerful than the final Adam's obedience?

Reference: (Romans 5:12-19)

Sorry Guojing I am slightly confused by this message.

 

[Nat2019]

Sorry Guojing I am slightly confused by this message.

Could you please explain this scripture to me-

2 Timothy 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord "must" turn away from wickedness.”

 

[mailmandan]

Well I guess you want to keep debating that you dont have listen to what the bible says for salvation.... you are so adamant to prove you dont have to Obey God or listen to his will. To get salvation. You think you can get salvation by believing in God and doing nothing else.

There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED and doing God's will BECAUSE WE ARE ALREADY SAVED.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Salvation is not about believing "mental assent" in God then afterwards you never obey God or listen to God or do His will etc.. That is a straw man argument. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. To believe otherwise is to believe that Christ's finished work of redemption is IN-sufficient to save and now YOU must ADD your works to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to HELP Him save you. That's not believing in/having faith in/trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation, but is believing in/having faith in/trusting in works for salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Can we be saved without loving God back. Is it all about God loving us?. Or do we need to love him back😁. Is loving God back a salvation issue. Or is it all about us.

We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[Nat2019]

So how much "obeying" does it take before believing saves? It would appear that you teach we are saved "by" believing + obedience/works. That is not what we read in John 5:24 or in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28 etc..). Salvation by belief/faith + works is not what scripture teaches (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith (James 2:14) but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Works-salvationists tend to confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by faith + works.

So how many works does it take? In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

The number of good works are not listed
Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Hebrews 13:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Romans 2:6-10
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED and doing God's will BECAUSE WE ARE ALREADY SAVED.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Salvation is not about believing "mental assent" in God then afterwards you never obey God or listen to God or do His will etc.. That is a straw man argument. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. To believe otherwise is to believe that Christ's finished work of redemption is IN-sufficient to save and now YOU must ADD your works to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to HELP Him save you. That's not believing in/having faith in/trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation, but is believing in/having faith in/trusting in works for salvation.

I don't believe in adding "my works" to salvation. I never claimed too.

 

[Guojing]

Sorry Guojing I am slightly confused by this message.

Okay let me break it down for you.

Can an unbeliever disown Satan either by

• renouncing him,
• refusing to do bad deeds or
• keep on "doing good deeds"?

 

[breno785au]

If we disown him... its possible to forsake God through our sins. We have free will. We are not puppets being controlled.

When you say disown you mean saying God doesn't exist? Or?

 

[Noose]

Okay let me break it down for you.

Can an unbeliever disown Satan either by

• renouncing him,
• refusing to do bad deeds or
• keep on "doing good deeds"?

Yes. How many times are people urged to turn away from sin? All manner of sin comes from hate, turning away from hate means loving others and thus obeying God whether you know it or not.

 

[Noose]

When you say disown you mean saying God doesn't exist? Or?

God is a spirit, you can not disown or accept a spirit in any manner rather than obeying or disobeying.

Deut 4:15So since you saw no form of any kind on the day the LORD spoke to you out of the fire at Horeb, be careful 16that you do not act corruptly and make an idol for yourselves of any form or shape, whether in the likeness of a male or female,

 

[Nat2019]

We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

I believe in Gods love of course😊 but if we love him we keep h

Okay let me break it down for you.

Can an unbeliever disown Satan either by

• renouncing him,
• refusing to do bad deeds or
• keep on "doing good deeds"?

Why are you providing me this kind of statement? Please explain. Is it too say we have no free will with God or Satan.

 

[Noose]

Okay let me break it down for you.

Can an unbeliever disown Satan either by

• renouncing him,
• refusing to do bad deeds or
• keep on "doing good deeds"?

James 4:7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you.

 

[Guojing]

I believe in Gods love of course😊 but if we love him we keep h

Why are you providing me this kind of statement? Please explain. Is it too say we have no free will with God or Satan.

No I am trying to break it down to you, what Romans 5:12-19 means, and why it is silly to believe that a Christian can lose his imputed righteousness, thru his actions.

 

[Guojing]

Yes. How many times are people urged to turn away from sin? All manner of sin comes from hate, turning away from hate means loving others and We show our faith by following that particular set of instructions. whether you know it or not.

Are you really saying you believe that Buddhists and others who do a lot of good works, but did not believe in Jesus's death burial and resurrection, are saved too?

 

[Nat2019]

When you say disown you mean saying God doesn't exist? Or?

Yes or turning your back on him. This could be by going back to your previous lifestyle or disowning or denying him in front of others.

 

[Nat2019]

No I am trying to break it down to you, what Romans 5:12-19 means, and why it is silly to believe that a Christian can lose his imputed righteousness, thru his actions.

Provide me that scripture and explain it please thanks😁

 

[mailmandan]

The number of good works are not listed
Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Hebrews 13:16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Romans 2:6-10
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Romans 2:6 - God will render to each person according to his deeds. This does not mean that we merit eternal life based on our good deeds. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. Those good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said.