Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

Of course Paul's letters are addressed to believers, but that does not mean that EVERYONE in this group of professing believers is a genuine believer. ALL the letters in the NT are written to believers, yet the Bible talks about wheat and tares (Mathew 13:24-30) false brethren (2 Corinthians 11:16; Galatians 2:4) false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15; Acts 20:28-31).

If you attended a church on Sunday morning (particularly a very large church) and the Pastor greeted the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" that morning, does that mean EVERYONE who attended church that Sunday morning MUST be a genuine believer? Of course not. Don't be so naive.

So when Paul is writing to believers and says "if you don't hold fast to what you have received, you have believed in vain..", how does anyone conclude that the belief was not genuine from the start?

 

[Noose]

Nope. Already addressed in previous post.

You want to earn your salvation. I get that. It's a natural, normal thought. The trouble is, you step dangerously close to trampling on Christ's Blood and insulting the Spirit of Grace.

HE said He would NEVER leave nor forsake us.

HE is the Author and finisher of our faith.

HE said no one can pluck us out of His Hand.

The Word says NOTHING can separate you from His Love.

The list goes on and on.


Are you SURE you believe and trust in Him?

In this list, please add "if we deny Him, He will deny us" 2 Tim 2:12.

You seem to choose only those parts that you don't understand.

 

[Noose]

Jesus tasted physical death (not spiritual death in hell) and His victory over death came through His resurrection.

This is a very serious thing you are saying.

The penalty for sin is death (second death/spiritual death). According to you, Jesus never paid the penalty for our sins.

I will have to start another thread about this and hear what others are saying about it.

 

[Noose]

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves, not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works/acts of love/charity which "follow."

We did not choose Him, He chose us.

You cannot dissect works of love from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40) and faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works.

Even the law, was a requirement for love which the Jews failed to understand.
Isa 58:1-7

The one who hates is a murderer is descriptive of children of the devil and not children of God. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

There certainly is a flaw from the start, as in the example of the 3rd and 4th soils in the parable of the soils. People may actually start out believing in a politician (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) then later find out that politician does not line up with their original expectations. It's the same with Jesus.

If you read in John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. *So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18).

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, then as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him. Not belief is firmly rooted and established from the start. Don't be so naive.

NO

 

[PennEd]

In this list, please add "if we deny Him, He will deny us" 2 Tim 2:12.

You seem to choose only those parts that you don't understand.

Grocery store Bible shopping again I see. Picking and choosing Just to support your erroneous works doctrine. How bout including the WHOLE passage for context!

This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 IF WE ARE FAITHLESS,
HE REMAINS FAITHFUL,
HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.


IF, you are sealed with The Holy Spirit, Jesus CANNOT deny Himself.

Just WHO do you think those who have endured, did good works, and even were persecuted unto death for His name's sake will REIGN over?

 

[Noose]

You’re trying to equate the phrase, in vain, to mean not saved anymore? Paul’s simply reminding them of the resurrection because if there is no resurrection, then our belief is in vain, meaning there’s no profit believing the message. If Christ didn’t resurrect then neither will we.

Later, he tells them:

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

They haven’t lost their salvation, rather, some have wondered from the truth of the resurrection.

But resurrection unto everlasting life is everything. It is the redemption from eternal death and the reason Christ died for us. So if you miss that then you have nothing, that's why Paul is saying 'believing in vain'.

 

[John146]

In this list, please add "if we deny Him, He will deny us" 2 Tim 2:12.

You seem to choose only those parts that you don't understand.

If we suffer, we reign with him. If we deny Him to avoid suffering, He will deny us the privilege to reign with Him in the millennium. Salvation is not the context.


11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[Noose]

Grocery store Bible shopping again I see. Picking and choosing Just to support your erroneous works doctrine. How bout including the WHOLE passage for context!

This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 IF WE ARE FAITHLESS,
HE REMAINS FAITHFUL,
HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.


IF, you are sealed with The Holy Spirit, Jesus CANNOT deny Himself.

Just WHO do you think those who have endured, did good works, and even were persecuted unto death for His name's sake will REIGN over?

Going even further with the same passage:

2 Tim 2:
16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Yes indeed, you cleanse yourself from filth and be instrument of special purpose then it shall be true that you were prepared for good works from the beginning.

And, those two guys departed from faith and started teaching something else. In them, these words:
"if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him/ If we endure, We shall also reign with Him/ IF WE ARE FAITHLESS,HE REMAINS FAITHFUL, HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF" are not true but these "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" hold true.

So don't just pick what suits you.

 

[Noose]

If we suffer, we reign with him. If we deny Him to avoid suffering, He will deny us the privilege to reign with Him in the millennium. Salvation is not the context.


11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Further on, vs 16-19, there's a story of two guys (Hymenaeus and Philetus ) who departed from faith, meaning that they deny Him (Christ)- are you saying they are still saved?

 

[PennEd]

Going even further with the same passage:

2 Tim 2:
16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Yes indeed, you cleanse yourself from filth and be instrument of special purpose then it shall be true that you were prepared for good works from the beginning.

And, those two guys departed from faith and started teaching something else. In them, these words:
"if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him/ If we endure, We shall also reign with Him/ IF WE ARE FAITHLESS,HE REMAINS FAITHFUL, HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF" are not true but these "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" hold true.

So don't just pick what suits you.

Wrong deduction again!

YOU, are kinda like Hymenaeus and Philetus. You are departing from the Truth, by saying Jesus is too weak and ineffectual to keep His Children saved. That's called a heretical doctrine. Doesn't necessarily mean you aren't saved, only that you are destroying the faith of some.

And here is the crucial distinction about what you are saying, and what those of us who Trust COMPLETELY in Christ's finished Work for eternal Life preaches. We ABSOLUTELY believe we should live a Godly, loving, sin hating, poor helping, peaceful, good works doing, life. YOU, however, believe that doing those things GAINS you eternal life.

THAT, is a vast distinction my friend. I hope the Lord will open your eyes to this grave error you persist in.

 

[John146]

Further on, vs 16-19, there's a story of two guys (Hymenaeus and Philetus ) who departed from faith, meaning that they deny Him (Christ)- are you saying they are still saved?

How do we know they were saved? And if they were saved, they have departed from the truth of the resurrection, but Christ cannot deny Himself. Paul is simply telling the Corinthians to watch out for these false teachers.

 

[Noose]

Wrong deduction again!

YOU, are kinda like Hymenaeus and Philetus. You are departing from the Truth, by saying Jesus is too weak and ineffectual to keep His Children saved. That's called a heretical doctrine. Doesn't necessarily mean you aren't saved, only that you are destroying the faith of some.

And here is the crucial distinction about what you are saying, and what those of us who Trust COMPLETELY in Christ's finished Work for eternal Life preaches. We ABSOLUTELY believe we should live a Godly, loving, sin hating, poor helping, peaceful, good works doing, life. YOU, however, believe that doing those things GAINS you eternal life.

THAT, is a vast distinction my friend. I hope the Lord will open your eyes to this grave error you persist in.

He has already:

1 John 3:14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.

My news to you is, loving others is the faith in christ/ belief in christ/ trust in christ and it is not about mental pictures but a work. You believe in godly life and loving others? you have done a good thing then.

 

[Noose]

How do we know they were saved? And if they were saved, they have departed from the truth of the resurrection, but Christ cannot deny Himself. Paul is simply telling the Corinthians to watch out for these false teachers.

Because they departed from...

Of course God can not deny Himself but He can deny those that depart from...

Everyone is to watch out for false teachers especially those that initially believed but fell beyond repair:

2 Pet 2:20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,e only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”f and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[mailmandan]

So when Paul is writing to believers and says "if you don't hold fast to what you have received, you have believed in vain..", how does anyone conclude that the belief was not genuine from the start?

Read the parable of the 4 soils. Only the 4th soil heard the word with an honest and good heart and hold it fast and bear fruit with perseverance. (Luke 8:15 - NASB)

 

[mailmandan]

This is a very serious thing you are saying.

The penalty for sin is death (second death/spiritual death). According to you, Jesus never paid the penalty for our sins.

I will have to start another thread about this and hear what others are saying about it.

Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross paid for our sins. Jesus did not need to pay the penalty for our sins in hell. He was not facing the second death/spiritual death. I’m sure that you will start another thread on this. You seem to love controversy.

 

[mailmandan]

Because they departed from...

Of course God can not deny Himself but He can deny those that depart from...

Everyone is to watch out for false teachers especially those that initially believed but fell beyond repair:

2 Pet 2:20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,e only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”f and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

See post #83,073 - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4154#post-3839046

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

I don't believe we're in Rev. 14 because you don't see the body of Christ after Rev. 3. The tribulation or Jacob's trouble(Jeremiah 30:4-7) is for Israel to come to recognize her true Messiah. God will refine a 1/3 Jewish remnant through the fire of the tribulation.
In Christ there is no Jew or gentile(Galatians 3:28) but Israel retains her national identity with an everlasting name(Isaiah 56:5).
Blindness in part has happened to Israel...TILL...the fullness of the gentiles come in(Romans 11;25) and then UP goes the church and God will be dealing with Israel again.

Revelation. just like any other book of the bible must be read and understood in relation to the rest of the scriptures and always in the context of what has been said, therefore "Rev. 14" cannot be picked like a fruit out of a basket to fit your personal interpretation. Chapters and verses came out between 1,100 and 1,400 AD and are not inspired (neither are subtitles). Revelation then must be seen in the context of what the whole book reveals.

However, if you read this book in a literal way and look for formulas, Rev. 22:16 specifically speaks of the churches, so the body of Christ is in the beginning and is in the end. This means that the entire book is written for the church of the 1st century as well as the church of the 21st century.

 

[Margo74]

Salvation can most certainly be lost but if it is, it is because we CHOSE to lose it .. God doesn't take it away - we use free will - a gift from God which He will not take away, nor interfere with - to make wrong choices and then fail to genuinely repent and get back in line with doing God's Will .. we must believe in God, love Him, do His Holy Will, and repent when we fail to do so - then and only then will God forgive us our sinfulness

 

[crossnote]

(Php 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Magenta]

(Php 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 1:6