why pascals wager doesn't work.

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chesser

Guest
#1
#1
1. Gods all knowing- he would therefore know if one really belives or is pretending to belive just in case
2. belief isnt a choice, an atheist can no more make themselves belive in god that a poor guy can make themselves belive they are a billionaire, they can pretend to belive, but they know deep down they really dont.
3. If they are only believing for fear of hell, and not for love of god, they probly go to hell anyways.(as heaven is perfect and god would not allow someone who dislikes him there)
4. none of the apostles ever used the "believe this or go to hell" argument, neither should you.
comments?
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#2
#2
I can't stand the "or you go to hell" argument.

I normally say "I believe this ...blabla" (what do you believe)?
 
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megaman125

Guest
#3
#3
chesser said:
1. Gods all knowing- he would therefore know if one really belives or is pretending to belive just in case
2. belief isnt a choice, an atheist can no more make themselves belive in god that a poor guy can make themselves belive they are a billionaire, they can pretend to belive, but they know deep down they really dont.
3. If they are only believing for fear of hell, and not for love of god, they probly go to hell anyways.(as heaven is perfect and god would not allow someone who dislikes him there)
4. none of the apostles ever used the "believe this or go to hell" argument, neither should you.
comments?
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1. Yes, totally agree.
2. It is a choice. You can choose to believe something despite evidence to the contrary, and atheists tend to do this all the time. But another, more simple example would be believing that the earth is flat.
3. I don't know if I'd make that conclusion, but it is certainly a misconception that all there is to Christianity is fearing hell.
4. I agree. hell fire preaching doesn't do much good. Besides that, I can guarantee that everyone in the US who's now an atheist has heard the hell fire preaching, and a lot of good that did.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#4
Jul 2, 2011
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#4
chesser said:
1. Gods all knowing- he would therefore know if one really belives or is pretending to belive just in case
2. belief isnt a choice, an atheist can no more make themselves belive in god that a poor guy can make themselves belive they are a billionaire, they can pretend to belive, but they know deep down they really dont.
3. If they are only believing for fear of hell, and not for love of god, they probly go to hell anyways.(as heaven is perfect and god would not allow someone who dislikes him there)
4. none of the apostles ever used the "believe this or go to hell" argument, neither should you.
comments?
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I have read some of the thoughts of Blaise Pascal, and as are all writings "about" faith, it is wanting.

Voilà un point vidé. Mais votre béatitude ? Pesons
le gain et la perte, en prenant croix que Dieu est. Estimons ces deux cas : si vous gagnez,​

vous gagnez tout ; si vous perdez, vous ne perdez rien.

The above quote fromt he extract says "We have a point settled. But about your bliss? Let us weigh the pros and cons assuming God exists. Appraising the two cases: if you win, you win all; if you lose, you lose nothing. ​
This declaration is commentary on having faith in the Word of Yahweh, or believing Him, and it is totally amiss because simply deciding to go with the "flow" of belief as it were is simply a lie, and lies will never stand up to the fire next time......God, Yahweh bless and keep close all in Yeshua, amen.
 
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JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#5
Jul 2, 2011
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#5
This so-called wager is calling the Almighty stupid. What kind of faith could that possibly be. It is playing with words, and no one "plays" and wins against our Father.
 
C

chesser

Guest
#6
#6
megaman125 said:
1. Yes, totally agree.
2. It is a choice. You can choose to believe something despite evidence to the contrary, and atheists tend to do this all the time. But another, more simple example would be believing that the earth is flat.
3. I don't know if I'd make that conclusion, but it is certainly a misconception that all there is to Christianity is fearing hell.
4. I agree. hell fire preaching doesn't do much good. Besides that, I can guarantee that everyone in the US who's now an atheist has heard the hell fire preaching, and a lot of good that did.
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1.ok
2. No you can't, atheists are atheists because they belive there is more evidence to their view, if they thought there was more evidence for Christianity, they would either become Christian or pretend they don't belive in it.
3. Ok
4. Ok
 
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megaman125

Guest
#7
#7
chesser said:
2. No you can't, atheists are atheists because they belive there is more evidence to their view, if they thought there was more evidence for Christianity, they would either become Christian or pretend they don't belive in it.
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Have you ever asked an atheist "What proof or evidence can you provide that shows atheism is accurate and correct?" Even the #1 most subscribed to atheist on youtube has ADMITTED that he could not provide any proof or evidence to support atheism.

If Christianity didn't have any evidence, then tell me, what would make it true? From my experience with atheists, the issue is never about IF there's evidence, because as you said, if the issue were about evidence, then they should already become Christians. People that are begging for evidence of God and then subsequently reject anything and everything related to God is not an issue about evidence, it's an issue of pride.
 
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chesser

Guest
#8
#8
megaman125 said:
Have you ever asked an atheist "What proof or evidence can you provide that shows atheism is accurate and correct?" Even the #1 most subscribed to atheist on youtube has ADMITTED that he could not provide any proof or evidence to support atheism.

If Christianity didn't have any evidence, then tell me, what would make it true? From my experience with atheists, the issue is never about IF there's evidence, because as you said, if the issue were about evidence, then they should already become Christians. People that are begging for evidence of God and then subsequently reject anything and everything related to God is not an issue about evidence, it's an issue of pride.
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yes, but some people do legitimately believe that the problem of evil,etc. is a good argument and that the cosmological argument,etc. aren't. Its not that they reject it out of pride, the reject it from not beliving its good evidence. (I know, trust me)
 
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megaman125

Guest
#9
#9
chesser said:
yes, but some people do legitimately believe that the problem of evil,etc. is a good argument and that the cosmological argument,etc. aren't. Its not that they reject it out of pride, the reject it from not beliving its good evidence. (I know, trust me)
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The opinion of "how good" the evidence is is actually irrelevant to the question of if there is evidence. If you're trying to meet a standand for them, they're just going to keep moving the bar higher. Again, this is not an issue of evidence, it's an issue of pride.

IMO, there's better things to talk about than the cosmological arguement, and that's certainly not all that Christianity has. Heck, if we're all intellectually honest here, the cosmological argument helps Christianity as much as it does Deism, or any other religion claiming a creator god.

As for the argument of evil, this isn't a problem for the Bible. Just look at the book of Psalms. Many times you see the psalmist questioning why God allows evil, or why they're allowed to prosper, or how long the persecution is allowed to go on. But what I don't see in there is the psalmist questioning God's existence because of "the problem of evil."
 
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Tethered

Guest
#10
#10
megaman125 said:
Have you ever asked an atheist "What proof or evidence can you provide that shows atheism is accurate and correct?" Even the #1 most subscribed to atheist on youtube has ADMITTED that he could not provide any proof or evidence to support atheism.

If Christianity didn't have any evidence, then tell me, what would make it true? From my experience with atheists, the issue is never about IF there's evidence, because as you said, if the issue were about evidence, then they should already become Christians. People that are begging for evidence of God and then subsequently reject anything and everything related to God is not an issue about evidence, it's an issue of pride.
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What proof or evidence can you provide that shows a-fairyism (no belief in fairies) is accurate and correct? Personally I'd deconstruct each fairy claim one at a time, instead of allowing fairyists to ask the question above insisting my burden of proof. -ShockofG rhetoric won't stand.

I agree it's not always about evidence.
If it was undisputed that stories of [insert any ideological figure] Jesus, Abraham, God and Moses etc were historically true ... it does not make the ideology acceptable.
Corrollary: An ideology can be the best without necessitating proof of it's founders existance or actions. Only the proof that 'the actions and behaviours communicated in the ideology' are best, are needed.

The question of 'where is the evidence for God?' doesn't progress the conversation unless the premis that God should be followed is agreed. It's easier to argue evidence than one's own moral code.
 
joshhuntnm

joshhuntnm

Senior Member
#11
Aug 6, 2012
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A couple of verses i read recently.


James 2:5 (NIV)
5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Point: the kingdom is for those who love God

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 (NIV)
10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

Point: being saved is about loving the truth
 
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Trax

Guest
#12
#12
chesser said:
3. If they are only believing for fear of hell, and not for love of god, they probly go to hell anyways.(as heaven is perfect and god would not allow someone who dislikes him there)
4. none of the apostles ever used the "believe this or go to hell" argument, neither should you.
comments?
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Jesus did and everyone likes to use the phrase WWJD. (Mark 9:43-48)
Now, about the apostles. You don't know what they said. What you have is letters written
to believers, the church, and NOT non-believers. All you got left is the book of Acts.
The fear of hell is a VERY good reason to get saved. How is an unbeliever going to love God,
in order to get saved, when they don't know Him, or know Him on a personal level yet?
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death.
There it is. People want their doctor to tell them if he finds anything wrong and what will
happen if its left untreated. The doctor could be sued if he isn't upfront and honest
with the patient. But don't talk about hell? Don't bring it up? This is hypocrisy.
Something physically wrong, then I want to know. Spiritually wrong, let's keep it quiet.
The spiritual problem is the MORE serious of the two problems. Now if the doctor
can be sued in a court of law, what do you think is going to happen, when Jesus holds
His day of judgement, and the charge is laid, someone wasn't upfront and honest?
 
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clarkthompson

Senior Member
#13
Jul 8, 2012
624
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#13
it is true if we dont believe we go to hell but turn or burn messages are not something that is biblical or effictive it turns people away more than turning them to God
 
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carey

Guest
#14
#14
Quick question:
What is the pascals wager?
By the way i agree with all that's been said here
;)
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#15
Jul 2, 2011
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#15
It is basically the philosophy that states if you bet on God existing, you win all, and if He does not, you lose nothing. It is a very cynical outlook completely void of faith, hope or love............Godless.

For more detailed information on the subject, the full name is Blaise Pascal, a 17th century "honnet homme."
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#16
Jul 2, 2011
21,240
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#16
Sorry, with the above post it should read, you win all if He exists, sorry...............
 
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chesser

Guest
#17
#17
carey said:
Quick question:
What is the pascals wager?
By the way i agree with all that's been said here
;)
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in essence its the "or else hell" argument.Well, not really, its the argument that an atheist should become christian, because if christianity is right, then christians go to heaven and atheists hell, if atheism is right, then nothing for both.
 
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chesser

Guest
#18
#18
Another major problem is that it brings some false Christians with the mindset "I don't want to follow God, I want to live in sin...but I don't want to go to hell, so I kinda have to." To the church. This person hates God, but because he hates the idea of hell even more, he unwillingly becomes Christian. as joshhuntnm said as well as the bible, only those who love god can inherit life. This is not to say that hell should not be told of, we should tell of hell like the apostles did, however we should not use it as the reason for one to become Christian. We should do as Peter did and tell others of Jesus and then tell them to “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” And that "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is eternal life" so that they know whom Jesus is, know they must repent, and in whose name to repent, and know what those who refuse to repent will receive for their sin. Also, it is once said sodom and Gomorrah are examples of what will happen to the wicked, being burnt to ashes(2 peter 2:6) so maybe show them a picture of some ashes to show them what awaits the wicked.
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
#19
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
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#19
chesser said:
Another major problem is that it brings some false Christians with the mindset "I don't want to follow God, I want to live in sin...but I don't want to go to hell, so I kinda have to." To the church. This person hates God, but because he hates the idea of hell even more, he unwillingly becomes Christian. as joshhuntnm said as well as the bible, only those who love god can inherit life. This is not to say that hell should not be told of, we should tell of hell like the apostles did, however we should not use it as the reason for one to become Christian. We should do as Peter did and tell others of Jesus and then tell them to “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” And that "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is eternal life" so that they know whom Jesus is, know they must repent, and in whose name to repent, and know what those who refuse to repent will receive for their sin. Also, it is once said sodom and Gomorrah are examples of what will happen to the wicked, being burnt to ashes(2 peter 2:6) so maybe show them a picture of some ashes to show them what awaits the wicked.
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We all come to the Lord as sinners needing forgiveness.

Is one persons reason for coming to the Lord better than anothers?

If you could show a person with logic that reading the bible and praying to God is a good thing, when he is saved does it matter that his original motivation was selfishness?
 
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chesser

Guest
#20
#20
Grandpa said:
We all come to the Lord as sinners needing forgiveness.

Is one persons reason for coming to the Lord better than anothers?

If you could show a person with logic that reading the bible and praying to God is a good thing, when he is saved does it matter that his original motivation was selfishness?
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Yes, the bible says you must be obedient to god, Jesus 1st commandment is to love god, if one does not love god but is selfish instead, he is a false Christian. Those Christians insult god, not thinking he can see right through them, consider John 14:23, if anyone loves Jesus, he will keep his word, and he and the father will make a home for him. Only those who love god are saved. If one hates god, but hates the idea of hell more, they are not saved. Also, you said we come to The Lord seeking forgiveness, in order to be forgiven, you have to be sorry for what you have done, you must repent, a pascal Christian isn't sorry for how they've offended god, their just saying sorry to get out of the consequences. Like a child who hits his brother, if the mother catches him and sends him to his room, he might say sorry to try and avoid it, but he doesn't actually feel bad that he hit his brother, he is only saying he is so he may get out of punishment.
 
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