So have a go. What are you scared of? I'm asking for YOUR interpretation line by line.
Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today
- Thread starter Dave-L
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Unless you understand Jesus' description of the kingdom line by line, I'm wasting my time.
Why do people debate scripture? If they both understood scripture there would be no debate.
First, tongues in Eastern Orthodoxy are defined as the miraculous ability to speak a previously unknown human language for the purpose of evangelization. Period. There is none of the babbling claiming to speak the tongues of angels that goes on in Pentecostal circles. There has never been, there will never be.
You keep going back to the 200s, with Ignatius and the Shepherd of Hermès. It’s likely that genuine tongues were operative then, and as the church fathers recorded had ended a century later.
This is why:
Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Don't we just avoid false teachers and not try to reach them after 2 or 3 tries?
Here's how you can prove it to yourself. This way you will believe because of your own findings. Find in the gospels one reference to the Kingdom being physical as the Pharisees expected. Find all references to the Kingdom being spiritual instead.
Did you research the evidence I referred you to?
AntiPentecostal German theologian Koch went to Timor and witnessed and wrote about miracles there in the '60's also.
Scripture does not support your view and the way you dismiss evidence sounds like you follow new atheist. approaches to epistomology.
My own personal testimony is not hearsay. Look heasay up in the dictionary.
God sent the Jews false prophets and false miracles too. We must go by scripture to make the call. If you post direct quotes for what you have I'll see what my sources say about them.
It is not clear what you mean with " the Baptism with the Holy Spirit" . If you mean with it that what is known as born again, that a believer recieved the Holy Spirit. This has from the beginning not changed till today.
If you understand with it what we find since 1901 in the pentecostal movement, than it is correct that this end in the early churchhistory.
I suspect your sources will say nothing about the girl I went to school with being healed. Doctrinally, don't you see a problem with assuming that someone who is healed in the name of Jesus through the laying on of hands is the victim of a false miracle? Does that make you feel like one of those critics of Jesus in the synagogue who did not want him to unbind the woman who had been bent over for 18 years? They had a more solid Biblical argument than you do, after all. What about the ones who likely blasphemed the Spirit by artributing his Spirit-empowered casting out of demons to Beelzebub?
You don't have any scripture to support your view. God worked miracles through people before the Acts 2 outpouring, so your argument about the baptism with the Holy Ghost would be a moot point even if it were valid.
Acts also uses terminology like receive the Spirit, baptism with the Spirit, the Spirit came upon them, the Spirit fell upon them, and baptism with the Holy Spirit to refer to these events we have discussed.
All believers are born again and have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. Just as with Moses and the other Prophets, God gave the 12 Apostles the same signs and wonders gifts called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He also provided the Baptism to the Gentile outpouring in Acts 10. But only they and the Apostles had the Baptism with speaking in tongues. And those they laid their hands on. These too preached, spoke in tongues and performed miracles. But they could not pass them on through their hands.
Then you should note, that this was spoken to the nation of jews! In a condition of the nation of jews which they had not till today.
When Peter quote Joel, this may be a partwise fulfillment. So the fulfilling of those prophecie is still in the future. About the 12 Apostel. It is obivious that Paul was the 12th of them.
Moses wrote scripture as a prophet. So did Paul, and others in the NT. If you have the gift of prophecy or speak in tongues, it is no different from scripture. Are you actually claim this of yourself?