Why the division amongst believers?

[BlessedByGod]

Sadly, your right. But, it is always something we can inspire to do better at. And, something we can also point out (with love) to follow believers and pray for them about. We all in the body of Christ and we can hold each other accountable, with nailing each other to the cross with our OWN self righteousness. Good point morefaithrequired.

Fellow, not follow believers...🙂

 

[BlessedByGod]

Sadly, your right. But, it is always something we can inspire to do better at. And, something we can also point out (with love) to follow believers and pray for them about. We all in the body of Christ and we can hold each other accountable, with nailing each other to the cross with our OWN self righteousness. Good point morefaithrequired.

Lol ugh. Without nailing each other to the cross. Need some grace for my typos🙂

 

[Whispered]

The truth is...everyone thinks they own it.

Well said!

 

[Whispered]

Humans are egocentric. Even as Christians. As individuals we believe we're in relationship with God and as such our understanding of His words leads us to believe those personal messages in scripture to us when questioned as to our full understanding of them , leads us to believe we may be wrong. And that then dominoes into our thinking, maybe we're not really as "in Christ" as we thought if we're wrong about what He's telling us.

 

[Heyjude]

That sounds arrogant to me and probably to a lot of non Christians. Its dogmatic. I believe jesus Christ is the answer. But Im not going to force that on someone else. I will tell them what I believe if they ask me. But Im not going to infer they are stupid because they dont have the same belief. I have a Muslim friend. Im not going to tell him his beliefs are "misguided."
Choose not only respectful language but take care to have a respectful attitude to others. otherwise they will disrespect you. Even more than they did in the first place.

I agree that some are not that uplifting. I have got snarky comments from others even when I just asked questions to learn. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on here who know way more than I do, as they have read more threads and posts than I have. They know more than others and say they have been on here for years so of course they do. But they were new on this thread once, so angry sarcastic replies without edification to learn are really just a way of making others feel like a piece of dirt on the floor (just for asking a question). That way isn't my scene.

I will give it a bit longer though as the good ones outshine the bad and if I give up even posting then I will read the posts instead.

It just feels sometimes like some are standing at the front with the biggest bucket of stones of them all so I can see why a lot of people just read the threads and don't comment at all.

I must admit, I joined CC then wanted to quit thinking how the ones that tear down others completely negate those that want to build up, because I cant learn from an angry teacher.

And More Faith Required - I love reading your posts and the new Johnny Mac thread you just started (You cannot be serious!)

 

[morefaithrequired]

I agree that some are not that uplifting. I have got snarky comments from others even when I just asked questions to learn. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on here who know way more than I do, as they have read more threads and posts than I have. They know more than others and say they have been on here for years so of course they do. But they were new on this thread once, so angry sarcastic replies without edification to learn are really just a way of making others feel like a piece of dirt on the floor (just for asking a question). That way isn't my scene.

I will give it a bit longer though as the good ones outshine the bad and if I give up even posting then I will read the posts instead.

It just feels sometimes like some are standing at the front with the biggest bucket of stones of them all so I can see why a lot of people just read the threads and don't comment at all.

I must admit, I joined CC then wanted to quit thinking how the ones that tear down others completely negate those that want to build up, because I cant learn from an angry teacher.

And More Faith Required - I love reading your posts and the new Johnny Mac thread you just started (You cannot be serious!)

Its not a scholarly contest. Jesus challenged the intellectuals and scripture experts of his day. Jesus related better to simple people who had no ego. No pretensions.

 

[Adstar]

do you believe in OSAS?
Your peril then is complacency and overconfidence. But you are not alone.

No i do not believe in OSAS..

Why would you call me Complacent?

Why would i lack confidence in the promises of Christ.. One should be supremely confident in Christ because Jesus being perfect provided the perfect un- blemished Passover Lamb of God and takes away my sins.. How can anyone be more overconfident of Jesus??? I think it is impossible to be too overconfident in Jesus..

 

[Adstar]

Whilst I was having some quiet time and seeking the Father and contemplating these questions the thought came to my mind. God is not a doctrine. Surely God is not so concerned with which doctrines you have in your head, but what your heart is like? I accept that you can feel another Christian may be misguided (or to be more charitable, have a view with which you disagree).

Doctrine 1 Jesus died and was raised physically back to life and walked around in his body before ascending into heaven..

Doctrine 2 Jesus died and later appeared as a Ghost to His disciples. His body rotted away in the tomb and his bones are still there today..

One doctrine if believed will see one be granted eternal life with Jesus
The other doctrine will see one rejected and they will be cast into the eternal lake of fire..

So yes God is not a doctrine.. But believing or disbelieving in doctrines will see one either saved or condemned.. So saying that God is not a doctrine does in no way devalue the critical importance of doctrines to determine if one has eternity with God or eternity in the Lake of fire.. So yes God is Very concerned with the doctrines we have in our heads when those doctrines are critical in determining our eternal destination..

But if they are genuinely seeking God and have a good heart then surely it would be more loving to simply accept they have a difference with you, but that you share the same life of God?

I would only take that position if i believed their belief was not critical to their eternal outcome.. If i believed that their belief was leading them to the eternal lake of fire to take that position would be the most evil one imaginable for me..

We must be careful that we are not so certain in our own sense of rightness that we forget the human being. I used to belong to a christian fellowship that was forever criticizing other fellowships and churches for being wrong on certain things. To the point that they would start to shun people. The Jehovahs witnesses do the same thing for people who think for themselves and come to different conclusions. A friend of mine has lost his family because he left them; they will no longer speak to him.

If a person is open to discussion i will discuss things with them.. And i will walk the extra mile with them.. If they become unwilling to discuss a critical doctrine of salvational importance and they continue to preach to others their doctrine that will send others to the eternal lake of fire if believed... Then i will oppose them in their preaching till the end.. And i do not care if they end up shunning me for it.. No one is saved because they are acceptable to a church or denomination or their birth family.. We are saved by believing Jesus and trusting in What He did on the cross to save us.. We must be prepared to stand like Noah did, rejected by our society and persecuted by them for the sake of standing with the truth of our LORD Jesus Christ..

 

[Dibby53]

Doctrine 1 Jesus died and was raised physically back to life and walked around in his body before ascending into heaven..

Doctrine 2 Jesus died and later appeared as a Ghost to His disciples. His body rotted away in the tomb and his bones are still there today..

One doctrine if believed will see one be granted eternal life with Jesus
The other doctrine will see one rejected and they will be cast into the eternal lake of fire..

So yes God is not a doctrine.. But believing or disbelieving in doctrines will see one either saved or condemned.. So saying that God is not a doctrine does in no way devalue the critical importance of doctrines to determine if one has eternity with God or eternity in the Lake of fire.. So yes God is Very concerned with the doctrines we have in our heads when those doctrines are critical in determining our eternal destination..



I would only take that position if i believed their belief was not critical to their eternal outcome.. If i believed that their belief was leading them to the eternal lake of fire to take that position would be the most evil one imaginable for me..



If a person is open to discussion i will discuss things with them.. And i will walk the extra mile with them.. If they become unwilling to discuss a critical doctrine of salvational importance and they continue to preach to others their doctrine that will send others to the eternal lake of fire if believed... Then i will oppose them in their preaching till the end.. And i do not care if they end up shunning me for it.. No one is saved because they are acceptable to a church or denomination or their birth family.. We are saved by believing Jesus and trusting in What He did on the cross to save us.. We must be prepared to stand like Noah did, rejected by our society and persecuted by them for the sake of standing with the truth of our LORD Jesus Christ..

I disagree. Whilst doctrine maybe of relative importance time and again Jesus mentions the state of a persons heart as primary. Luke 19: 1-10 tells of Zacchaeus who gave half his possessions away and paid back people he cheated. Jesus said " Salvation has come..." Why? Because Zacchaeus had a change of heart ( repented). The good samaritan was good because he was compassionate, not because he believed a doctrine. ( In fact Jesus uses the story as jews and samaritans were doctrinally different, and regarded each other badly). In the parable of the sheep and goats Jesus says that the people with the good hearts were justified, "For I was naked and you clothed me, etc". In the parable of the pharisee and the sinner; it is the sinner who prays "Father, have mercy on me a sinner" who is accepted by God. Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom only those who do the will of the Father. So maybe not everyone who is doctrinally correct will enter the kingdom, and not everyone who is suspect in doctrine will be excluded.

 

[p_rehbein]

Thankyou for your caring enough to pray for me. I welcome God's guidance. However, I,m not sure that I see the bible as the Word of God ( in that it is infallible and free of error) , but as the lived experience of people as they came to understand God, which is time bound and limited. In the opening chapter of John's gospel Christ is called the Word of God, not a book. And indeed there was no bible for the first 500 years or so of christianity. I think that in modern christianity the bible has become a kind of paper and ink idol that can hinder, as much as help, a living relationship with God. I,m willing to learn on this though. But of course people do interpret the bible in numerous ways and it is this that leads to conflict if people claim they have the final revelation.
You mention that no gay person is in relationship with god if they don't accept that having a relationship with their own gender is wrong. Jesus spoke against divorce and remarriage, saying that if they marry again (whilst their ex spouse is still alive) then they commit adultery. So does everyone who is remarrried have to repent and put their new partners out of their lives? If not then they are committing adultery by Jesus's own words and therefore out of relationship with God. Or do we accept that we need to reinterpret those words for our times.?

FIRST: Jesus Himself considered the Scriptures to be the Word of God. There is the Written Word, and the Living Word. It does not matter if you accept this or not, it is Truth. Your not accepting this places you in grave danger of being led astray by the deceiver himself.

As for your trying to tie in what Christ said about marriage/divorce, had you studied Scripture, you would see that Christ/God, and the Written Word gives us the circumstances for when a divorce is legal in accordance with Gods Word. Why it is important to study and understand the Written Word, and not continue to try and justify a lifestyle against Gods will by twisting the meaning of the Scriptures.

In all honesty, I know that YOU KNOW the homosexual lifestyle is against God! How do I know this? Because IF you REALLY believed it was not, you WOULD NOT have Authored this Thread to discuss if it was or not. In fact, you wouldn't even bother to discuss it. Because of that, I believe you are having your "ears tickled" by those who would twist Scripture to justify their sinfilled lifestyle so as to justify your own.

BE ASSURED.

Anyone living a life of sin is living apart from God, and come the day of Judgement, they will be condemned to eternal damnation. That is Truth! Jesus said so. The Scriptures say so.

You have to decide if you actually want to be a disciple of Christ, and an heir to the Promise, or if you want to live a lifestyle that leads to damnation for all eternity, and strive to justify that lifestyle by twisting Scripture.

Go in peace, and please decide what you really want.....

 

[Lanolin]

Sorry not really following, if the OP of this thread is into homosexuality he or she needs to sort that out with God. Sorry I cant help you there..but God can.

I have found that many that are into that kind of thing had been molested or abused as a child. The thing is you dont want to be the one perpertrating that kind of abuse on others. GOd has stern words to say about that. But Jesus also has a way of setting the captives free, that many people dont actually avail the selves of, forgetting that He died for you. . But YOU need to decide if you want accept Jesus sacrifice or not. you could continue to be a slave to sin or a servant of God. I know which one Id rather be!

I dont know why same sex marriage is a thing these days, but the Bible does say to avoid fornication, people get married, and not to forbid it so maybe thats one good thing about it. Jury is still out on that one though. I personally dont know of many gay marriages that lasted. For many people, even opposite sex marriages seem to be a bit of a sham, going by the number of divorces and splits.

 

[Dibby53]

FIRST: Jesus Himself considered the Scriptures to be the Word of God. There is the Written Word, and the Living Word. It does not matter if you accept this or not, it is Truth. Your not accepting this places you in grave danger of being led astray by the deceiver himself.

As for your trying to tie in what Christ said about marriage/divorce, had you studied Scripture, you would see that Christ/God, and the Written Word gives us the circumstances for when a divorce is legal in accordance with Gods Word. Why it is important to study and understand the Written Word, and not continue to try and justify a lifestyle against Gods will by twisting the meaning of the Scriptures.

In all honesty, I know that YOU KNOW the homosexual lifestyle is against God! How do I know this? Because IF you REALLY believed it was not, you WOULD NOT have Authored this Thread to discuss if it was or not. In fact, you wouldn't even bother to discuss it. Because of that, I believe you are having your "ears tickled" by those who would twist Scripture to justify their sinfilled lifestyle so as to justify your own.

BE ASSURED.

Anyone living a life of sin is living apart from God, and come the day of Judgement, they will be condemned to eternal damnation. That is Truth! Jesus said so. The Scriptures say so.

You have to decide if you actually want to be a disciple of Christ, and an heir to the Promise, or if you want to live a lifestyle that leads to damnation for all eternity, and strive to justify that lifestyle by twisting Scripture.

Go in peace, and please decide what you really want.....

I do seek greater understanding in religion aswell as life. And I do appreciate your time in responding. The title of the thread as Why the division amongst believers? I used the example of homosexuality as it seems a pertinent example in modern times. I could have used any issue that divides believers, woman bishops or priests for example. Each side has genuine people of good hearts, committed to God who will interpret scriptural references by looking at context, history and culture of the time and much prayer and try to work out what God was saying; maybe realising that we know alot more these days about psychology, hormones etc. The point I was making was that one side will always say that they have the absolute truth on the matter; they then impute the worst motives to opponents (as you appear to do by saying that their motives are selfish and they desire to "twist" scripture to be selfish) and the best motives to themselves. Only God knows the true state of someones heart, not you, not me. You could disagree gracefully, but you appear to suggest that they are hell bound and not even in relationship with God..........even though they pray to and love God! The example of divorce (I accept that I made a mistake in the exception Jesus made, for infidelity) was a good one, because you would still have to pry into peoples lives who were remarried to see if they divorced for the right reasons. As, if they were committing adultery by remarriage they would need to repent and stop seeing their new husband, or wife and get right with God. If not then surely you are going against what Jesus said and cannot be in relationship with God?

I certainly need more repentence and miss the mark constantly. But I will take my chances with my Father, since He is my judge and thankfully, not other christians.

 

[morefaithrequired]

No i do not believe in OSAS..

Why would you call me Complacent?

Why would i lack confidence in the promises of Christ.. One should be supremely confident in Christ because Jesus being perfect provided the perfect un- blemished Passover Lamb of God and takes away my sins.. How can anyone be more overconfident of Jesus??? I think it is impossible to be too overconfident in Jesus..

OK...just make sure that is confidence in Jesus , not yourself

 

[morefaithrequired]

I do seek greater understanding in religion aswell as life. And I do appreciate your time in responding. The title of the thread as Why the division amongst believers? I used the example of homosexuality as it seems a pertinent example in modern times. I could have used any issue that divides believers, woman bishops or priests for example. Each side has genuine people of good hearts, committed to God who will interpret scriptural references by looking at context, history and culture of the time and much prayer and try to work out what God was saying; maybe realising that we know alot more these days about psychology, hormones etc. The point I was making was that one side will always say that they have the absolute truth on the matter; they then impute the worst motives to opponents (as you appear to do by saying that their motives are selfish and they desire to "twist" scripture to be selfish) and the best motives to themselves. Only God knows the true state of someones heart, not you, not me. You could disagree gracefully, but you appear to suggest that they are hell bound and not even in relationship with God..........even though they pray to and love God! The example of divorce (I accept that I made a mistake in the exception Jesus made, for infidelity) was a good one, because you would still have to pry into peoples lives who were remarried to see if they divorced for the right reasons. As, if they were committing adultery by remarriage they would need to repent and stop seeing their new husband, or wife and get right with God. If not then surely you are going against what Jesus said and cannot be in relationship with God?

I certainly need more repentence and miss the mark constantly. But I will take my chances with my Father, since He is my judge and thankfully, not other christians.

you are on the right track I feel Dibley. Your posts are full of humility

 

[maxwel]

Dibby, I am sincerely trying to understand you.

Please let me know if my assertions are correct.


1. You are a practicing homosexual, and you believe homosexuality is fine, and you are therefore unrepentant about it because you don't consider it a sin.
Correct?

2. Your profile says you are married, so we should assume you are a man married to another man.
Correct?

3. You feel that Christians, as part of accepting you, should embrace your lifestyle, and agree that homosexuality is fine... and you are making a case to that end by asserting the Bible should NOT be taken too seriously.
Correct?


Please let me know if my assertions are correct so I can understand you.



.

 

[p_rehbein]

I disagree. Whilst doctrine maybe of relative importance time and again Jesus mentions the state of a persons heart as primary. Luke 19: 1-10 tells of Zacchaeus who gave half his possessions away and paid back people he cheated. Jesus said " Salvation has come..." Why? Because Zacchaeus had a change of heart ( repented). The good samaritan was good because he was compassionate, not because he believed a doctrine. ( In fact Jesus uses the story as jews and samaritans were doctrinally different, and regarded each other badly). In the parable of the sheep and goats Jesus says that the people with the good hearts were justified, "For I was naked and you clothed me, etc". In the parable of the pharisee and the sinner; it is the sinner who prays "Father, have mercy on me a sinner" who is accepted by God. Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom only those who do the will of the Father. So maybe not everyone who is doctrinally correct will enter the kingdom, and not everyone who is suspect in doctrine will be excluded.

Key there is "good heart."

A person living a homosexual lifestyle does NOT have a "good heart" as it relates to God. For they are living a lifestyle that is an abomination in the eyes of God. A "good heart" does not live a sinfilled life in direct conflict to the Word of God.

I also see you ignored what I said earlier, and as I continue to read your comments, it is quite clear you fully understand that the homosexual lifestyle is not "of God," and is a sinfilled lifestyle that will cause the person to face eternal damnation. You KNOW this to be true, but you so want it not to be, that you are perpetuating false ideologies/misinterpretations of Scripture in hopes that someone here will give you some Biblical evidence that it is "OK" for you/anyone to live such a lifestyle.

Sadly, you are only deceiving yourself. And that is far worse than being deceived by someone else, for at least then you have some defense........saying that "they" lied to you. When a person lies to themselves, they have no one but themselves to blame.

 

[JesusLives]

I believe that God is the judge of all of us and that if one believes Jesus is their Savior and has asked for forgiveness and lives up to the light they have received from reading God's word then it is God who is in charge of all of our destinies.

We sometimes forget that each of us is on a journey and some may have more understanding and study than another. Kind of like being on a ladder some may have a higher education than another but it doesn't mean that we all aren't saved.

We just get caught up in our understandings and what we have learned and the other person just needs to catch up or we need to catch up to that truth understanding.

The justification and sanctification processes....

So maybe we aren't patient enough with each other and that's one of the reasons so many arguments break out.

I think too that we all need to remember that God loves each person equally saved or not. God loves even the people that we get very irritated by just as much as He loves us...hard to remember. I speak for myself... so I do try and remind myself...

 

[Dibby53]

[QUOTE="p_rehbein, post: 4039670, member:
A person living a homosexual lifestyle does NOT have a "good heart" as it relates to God. For they are living a lifestyle that is an abomination in the eyes of God. A "good heart" does not live a sinfilled life in direct conflict to the Word of God.

I also see you ignored what I said earlier, and as I continue to read your comments, it is quite clear you fully understand that the homosexual lifestyle is not "of God," and is a sinfilled lifestyle that will cause the person to face eternal damnation. You KNOW this to be true, but you so want it not to be, that you are perpetuating false ideologies/misinterpretations of Scripture in hopes that someone here will give you some Biblical evidence that it is "OK" for you/anyone to live such a lifestyle.

Sadly, you are only deceiving yourself. And that is far worse than being deceived by someone else, for at least then you have some defense........saying that "they" lied to you. When a person lies to themselves, they have no one but themselves to blame.[/QUOTE]

The thread was about divided believers, not homosexuality per se. I don't really know what else to say to you. It is difficult to share with you genuinely. You tell me what I " fully understand", what "I know" to be true and how "I am deceiving myself". Can you judge me better than God? Do you know the genuineness of my intentions and motivations? I,m simply sharing my ideas, thoughts and contemplations......I claim no divine sanction for them. It is for others to decide how useful they find them and for God to judge my soul. Peace x

 

[Dibby53]

Dibby, I am sincerely trying to understand you.

Please let me know if my assertions are correct.


1. You are a practicing homosexual, and you believe homosexuality is fine, and you are therefore unrepentant about it because you don't consider it a sin.
Correct?

2. Your profile says you are married, so we should assume you are a man married to another man.
Correct?

3. You feel that Christians, as part of accepting you, should embrace your lifestyle, and agree that homosexuality is fine... and you are making a case to that end by asserting the Bible should NOT be taken too seriously.
Correct?


Please let me know if my assertions are correct so I can understand you.



.

Hi Maxwell
I don't think you are genuinely trying to understand me. Your questioning sounds like an interrogation and you are assuming motivations to me, such as how I want people to respond; and asserting what you think are my motivations towards the bible. I,m not answering you so you can mentally burn me at the stake with your judgement. God is my judge, not other Christians. The thread is about why believers are so divided. I think some of the posts may explain why. I genuinely wish peace to you xx

 

[Dibby53]

I believe that God is the judge of all of us and that if one believes Jesus is their Savior and has asked for forgiveness and lives up to the light they have received from reading God's word then it is God who is in charge of all of our destinies.

We sometimes forget that each of us is on a journey and some may have more understanding and study than another. Kind of like being on a ladder some may have a higher education than another but it doesn't mean that we all aren't saved.

We just get caught up in our understandings and what we have learned and the other person just needs to catch up or we need to catch up to that truth understanding.

The justification and sanctification processes....

So maybe we aren't patient enough with each other and that's one of the reasons so many arguments break out.

I think too that we all need to remember that God loves each person equally saved or not. God loves even the people that we get very irritated by just as much as He loves us...hard to remember. I speak for myself... so I do try and remind myself...

Thanks Jesuslives. A most hopeful and compassionate post. X