Will there actually be a Rapture?

[Ukorin]

Yes it says 'AFTER'. We all can see that.
Specifically FROM HEAVEN. as the word states.( they are IN HEAVEN ...during the gt...connect the dots)

I guess we'll be all spread out in Heaven? What?!

 

[Sirk]

I can't help but think of the Blondie song every time I hear the word....apologies....carry on.

 

[Ukorin]

I can't help but think of the Blondie song every time I hear the word....apologies....carry on.

Just looked it up.
The rap part is hilarious.

Seriously glad I wasn't born yet when that stuff was popular.

 

[popeye]

I guess we'll be all spread out in Heaven? What?!

Heaven is bigger than earth

 

[popeye]

Take a parable literally, but not a clear section?
That's like those that say that we should interpret the teaching sections in light of the prophetic sections,
rather than letting the clear teaching sections guide us in interpreting the prophetic.

No point in debating, as you seperate the Church from Israel. Until you recognize that all salvation is through Christ, and that all those Redeemed are part of His Body, and that His Body is the Church... We cannot see eye to eye on prophecy.

A parable is a story within a story. .....overly simple,never complicated.
The bride/groom dimension is the key....the blatantly obvious,unmistakable key.

 

[Ukorin]

A parable is a story within a story. .....overly simple,never complicated.
The bride/groom dimension is the key....the blatantly obvious,unmistakable key.

Simple yes,
and easily misunderstood by the physical mind.

 

[Atwood]

The legit question is not if we will be raptured. 1 Th 4:17 says, "harpagesometha = rapiemur = "we shall be raptured" (raptured = caught up; think "harpooned"). The Rapture is simply the catching up of 1 Th 4:17.

So far so good. Of course Christians disagree on
1) its timing,
2) its relationship to the tribulation,
3) the nature of the tribulation,
4) who is raptured (just the Church?)

If you know the Lord Jesus, there is no call for quarreling over such eschatological differences of opinion.

Now I am thinking that it is somewhat remarkable that no passage on the Tribulation, never in the Olivet Discourse, never in Daniel, never in Revelation 6-18 is there any occurrence whatsoever of the "Church" (ekklesia). There is a big hiatus in Revelation. Rev 2-3 has lots to say about Church. The Church of Lavender Blue Philly Dilly is promised not to go thru the great trial coming on the earth. Then at the start of Rev 4 John is raptured and a throne room scene comes with these 24 elders having golden crowns. In Rev 6-18 a great time of trouble is delineated (Seals, Trumpets, Thunders, Vials), but there is not one occurrence of "ekklesia" in all those chapters. After those chapters there is the Bride of Christ referred to.

Why do you think "ekklesia" is absent from all those passages mentioned above? If ekklesia had been mentioned on earth as suffering or being in the midst on earth of all that suffering, would the pre-trib theory have ever been born or held?

 

[Ukorin]

The legit question is not if we will be raptured. 1 Th 4:17 says, "harpagesometha = rapiemur = "we shall be raptured" (raptured = caught up; think "harpooned"). The Rapture is simply the catching up of 1 Th 4:17.

So far so good. Of course Christians disagree on
1) its timing,
2) its relationship to the tribulation,
3) the nature of the tribulation,
4) who is raptured (just the Church?)

If you know the Lord Jesus, there is no call for quarreling over such eschatological differences of opinion.

Now I am thinking that it is somewhat remarkable that no passage on the Tribulation, never in the Olivet Discourse, never in Daniel, never in Revelation 6-18 is there any occurrence whatsoever of the "Church" (ekklesia). There is a big hiatus in Revelation. Rev 2-3 has lots to say about Church. The Church of Lavender Blue Philly Dilly is promised not to go thru the great trial coming on the earth. Then at the start of Rev 4 John is raptured and a throne room scene comes with these 24 elders having golden crowns. In Rev 6-18 a great time of trouble is delineated (Seals, Trumpets, Thunders, Vials), but there is not one occurrence of "ekklesia" in all those chapters. After those chapters there is the Bride of Christ referred to.

Why do you think "ekklesia" is absent from all those passages mentioned above? If ekklesia had been mentioned on earth as suffering or being in the midst on earth of all that suffering, would the pre-trib theory have ever been born or held?

Mention of ecclesia is not needed, as Israel and Church are not separable faiths.
Silence proves little to nothing.

 

[tribesman]

Mention of ecclesia is not needed, as Israel and Church are not separable faiths.
Silence proves little to nothing.

Very true!

 

[PlainWord]

Paul tends to use 'God' for the Father and 'Lord' for Jesus, though quoting the Old Testament, though he'll use translations that render YHWH with the equivalent of 'Lord.' I Corinthians 12:4-6 is a good passage to show how Paul often uses 'God' and 'Lord' in a distinct manner.

Actually, most of the time when Paul is discussing Jesus he includes the name Jesus when he uses the word, "LORD." When Paul is discussing the Father, he often times only uses Lord without invoking the word, "God."

Examples of Lord as God:

2 Corinthians 8:19


and not only that, but who was also chosen by the churches to travel with us with this gift, which is administered by us to the glory of the Lord Himself and to show your ready mind...

Romans 10:16


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Romans 12:19


Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

Example of Lord Jesus:

2 Corinthians 4:10


always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.

I have a question for you. Do you have a specific passage that leads you to interpret these other passages as the Lord coming to earth as being about God-- the Father, I assume you mean-- coming to earth? Where is the on-ramp for the circular highway of reasoning? I read passages like this as about the return of Christ.

Sure, several.

2 Corinthians 4:14


knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.

This happens on the Last Day - The Day of the Lord (GOD).

Now Peter teaches that the Day of God and Day of the Lord are the same.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, [SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

The Day of the Lord is an OT concept which discusses God's vengeance that He pours out when He (GOD) returns.

Jeremiah 46:10


For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries. The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood; For the Lord God of hosts has a sacrifice In the north country by the River Euphrates.

And how is this in any way support for your theory? Why would Paul switch from 'Lord' to 'God' in the same sentence like this if he weren't referring to the same return of Christ that he refers to elsewhere?

He didn't switch. He was talking about God everywhere here. Why would you think Paul was talking about Christ Jesus? The only mention of Jesus in this entire passage state that Jesus died and rose again and those who were asleep in Jesus God is going to bring. All saved since the cross who die are asleep in Jesus. That doesn't mean Jesus is coming here. Read it like this to understand it correctly.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (GOD), that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord (GOD) Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord (GOD). [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord (GOD) so comes as a thief in the night.

Look at this verse from I Corinthians 15 and the one that follows.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Notice that 'He' in verse 24 refers to Christ, who will deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father. This is really specific. It doesn't make much sense to switch 'his' and 'he' to be two different people. It doesn't make sense to say that 'his' in 'Christ's at His coming" not refer to Christ. You sure seem to have an agenda when you look at these texts.

My only agenda is truth. Look at this passage.


[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[SUP][a][/SUP] thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

If Christ returns with the martyrs of the Tribulation, and the rest don't live again for 1,000 years, who is bringing the rest of the dead? John is pretty specific, only the Martyrs from the Tribulation who did not receive the Mark of the Beast reign with Christ. What about those who died before the Tribulation?

Do you see Christ coming to God here in Dan 7?

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom.

I think you are jumping through hoops with your interpretation to try to make 'the last day' refer to a 24 hour time period when it doesn't have to mean that... linguistically I mean.

So you see the LAST DAY lasting 1,000 years??? That's fine. So which day of the 1,000 does all the resurrecting take place at the start, middle, end or gradually? When is the earth dissolved and the new heaven comes down? Does this happen at the start or end of the 1,000 years? When do all flesh living bodies need to be changed instantly? Just before the earth is dissolved, right?

 

[john832]

If one refers to the rapture as the coming of Christ to whisk the faithful away before the GT, then the answer to the thread title is...

NO!

 

[f4ufighter777]

HIS Own people followed "the same pattern," of National Cultural Destruction over and over and over. HE Turned them out and into "the hands," of HIS enemies - hands that would-never show mercy!!! HE Never changed HIS Mind and-then gave them a Rapture!!! HE Says HIS Own people WILL REAP - JUST WHAT they sow!!! And so - it has been this way for 3500 years re HIS Own people!!! There is NOTHING NEW about this - today!!! Just the same old, same old and on and on!!!

For specifics and intelligent discussion - then:

Ron Stauffer

{[email protected]}

 

[Hepsibah]

The following Bible verses give a clear explanation that the Rapture is a sure event and that it will happen immediately after the antichrist is revealed to the world as the abomination causing desolation

Luke chapter 17 verses 26 -36 speaks about the day of rapture. The world is going in the normal way with people eating drinking marrying and then The Lord comes and takes away the prepared.

Mark chapter 13 explains the entire chronology of the end time events and at the last is the open coming of our Lord after the tribulation.

In both these passages you will be surprised to find only the follow verses similar

In that day, he who is on the hose top and his goods are in the house let him not come down to take them away And likewise the one who is in the field let him not turn back. (Luke 17:31 and Mark 13:15,16)

We clearly understand from Luke 13:26-36 that it is the day of the rapture and comparing with the above similar verse in Mark 13 we find that the rapture is immediately after the antichrist is revealed

If you take your Bible and study for yourself these two passages you will be thrilled to find this.

 

[Jeff_56]

Nope just the resurrection then we will still be on earth alongside Christ ruling alongside in servitude to king yeshua hamashiach for a millenium

this is as it is written. so be it, come quickly master yahshua , come quickly !

yahweh, quickly execute your judgment and righteous vengeance on earth, on those who shed the blood

of the innocent ones ! yes, quickly yahweh elohim !

let there be peace in jerusalem ! amein.

p.s. when yahshua returns, as it is written, it may be that the dead will rise first from the grave (those he raises),
then we (if any) who are still alive on earth also,
will be risen up to Him, perhaps in the sky for a little bit, then right back down to earth to serve Him on earth. yes!

some other who follow man's ways and man's dreams (the woman's dream in 1832) may call that the rapture (maybe it is a rapture, by definition?) , and that's okay, unless they try to change the rest of it.

 

[Willie-T]

I don't really know the answer to this question, so I'd like some Biblical insight into it. Please provide a full explanation of the doctrine if you are familiar (I'm pretty blank on it), and provide solid Biblical evidence for or against the event as you are able.

Is it a Biblical doctrine or not, and what Bible verses talk about it?

Please note this well:
I am not starting this thread as a place to debate about when the rapture will happen (should it do so), but about whether the rapture will happen. Actually, I don't even mean this post to be for debate at all. All I want is to know the Truth from people who know.

I know that the timing of this event is a significant subject of debate among many of my Christian Brothers and Sisters, but for me it is good enough just to say that Jesus will win in the end! Ultimately, I don't really care when it will happen if it does, because I'm saved either way, and will never let go of Jesus... rapture or no rapture... be it Pre, Post, or Middle Tribulation. The time frame or existence of this phenomenon will not affect my Salvation, only the hour at which I meet my Lord. Hence, let all debates on the time-frame of this event be saved for different threads... I do not care when it happens, but only if it happens.

I want to believe the right thing about this doctrine, so please tell me what it is. I am completely open to either possibility (rapture or no rapture) provided I have the proof. Know that you have an unbiased/impartial audience in me. I only judge by the Bible which I hear and read, and no other standard will I use...

A link is on the way to you via PM.

 

[jduck1986]

Daniel 12:1-2 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who standsguard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.2Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgraceand everlasting contempt."

John 6:39-40 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

One event. not two.

 

[popeye]

Daniel 12:1-2 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who standsguard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.2Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgraceand everlasting contempt."

John 6:39-40 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

One event. not two.

He returns with his saints on white horses at the end of the gt

1) the ac kills all humanoids refusing the mark during the gt.
2) mat 25. factor all the verses in,not the ones taught by postrib

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Zero trib here. Zero white horses,zero battle,and yet the bride is harvested.
No such thing as a postrib rapture.

 

[PlainWord]

The Rapture happens on the last day of earth when God HIMSELF returns with all the saints after the millennial reign of Christ. This is the resurrection of the saved and wicked to stand before God for judgment. 1 Thes 4:14 clearly identifies the FATHER as the one coming. Christ is already here. Christ takes all those living up to meet the LORD GOD in the AIR, again on the last day of earth.

The living are changed on this same last day, in the twinkling of the eye. Why? Because the earth and all in it are going to be dissolved and behold a new heaven and earth comes down from God.