Woman should not teach or assume authority over men (applies to secular????)

[phil112]

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

 

[homwardbound]

Its funny because I've heard like 10 different explanations on how the Corinthians Church was bad and each person uses the explanation they give to try and disregard 1 tim 2: 11-12. The issue with this is if these verses JUST applied to the Corinthians, then why on earth are they in the bible addressed to EVERYONE.

If you are still carnal, and have not received the maturity in the Gospel, then one needs to be under Law to teach them truth in Maturity as Hebrews 5:10-6:6 reveals the need to the immature believer. The law is needed for the immature Christian. The Law is for the Law breakers, not the one's in maturity to truth. Theses are no longer Law breakers.
Paul very clear on this to the Corinthians. They had to be put back under Law to gain maturity in Christ and not take the Gospel for granted.

The Mature understand consideration and Love from God to their fellow neighbor, no matter what the other believes. It is Love, God's type that surpasses all understanding, in righteousness and peace found through the Holy Spirit of God

In the Spirit of God there is no sin, none and Love God's trumps all, that God permeates through us, if we beleive God

 

[homwardbound]

The difference is that is a story (a true one, but still a story). Stories are about a certain time period, and the lesson is to be applied to all. 1 Tim 2 12 isn't a story, its just a lesson stated bluntly. Because of that, you skip the "to a certain time period" and it is applied to all.

Okay. let's read the whole chapter,
[h=3]1 Timothy 2[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; [SUP]2 [/SUP]for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [SUP]4 [/SUP]who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [SUP]6 [/SUP]who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. [SUP]9 [/SUP]In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; [SUP]10 [/SUP]but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 

[homwardbound]

Alright I'm done. You are ignorant and I cannot teach ignorant people with no logic. You are dead set on your view and are SCRAMBLING for ways to show it. You aren't honest with yourself about scripture.

I've seriously never met someone so blind.

Your words are so bold, and you are right and everyone else is wrong, wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God talks directly to you, and told you to say these things to greennice?
Are you that righteous?
Are we not here to debate, discuss and trust God to teach each of us?

 

[tucksma]

Your words are so bold, and you are right and everyone else is wrong, wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God talks directly to you, and told you to say these things to greennice?
Are you that righteous?
Are we not here to debate, discuss and trust God to teach each of us?

I love how you put words in my mouth.

I never said God told me to say these things.
I never said I was more righteous.

I have debated GreenNice for multiple days now on the issue, so I tried. You may check other threads if you wish.

I would never react like that off of one post, its off of MANY posts he has said that made me realize that he isn't honest with himself, is ignorant to truth, and uses faulty reasoning.
You can't teach someone who does not want to be taught.

 

[tucksma]

Not everything is applied to everyone, but everyone when they read they apply it to themselves.

Anything that the bible says to do, applies to all.

Some things are like meat sacrificed to idols, where some will some wont.

Things that are directly stated are applied to everyone.

 

[tucksma]

Originally Posted by tucksma
The verse doesn't say over a man who is teaching, it simply says over a man. You add words that are not there.





And, answer to this, too, tuck. A woman is to LEARN in quietness and full submission.

This says that she is being taught something, and, it's NOT by men, it's by a man.

I'm not caring either way, 'men, 'a man, 'the men,' 'the single man' 'the husband,' I don't care, it doesn't change the reality that this verse is NOT teaching that women cannot teach or have authority over a man. It is saying that when they are LEARNING, they are to be quiet and in full submission to who is speaking.

Wish I could say it clearer than that, but, I guess, I can't. The Lord leads.
Sorry, you're so frustrated , God bless and, for a young kid, you're a smart young kid, gifted in ways of arguing and I'm sure you can discuss other topics quite well ,too. I just hope and pray you speak to others in love, 'of faith, hope, love, the greatest is love.'

A man doesn't mean a man teaching her. You add that in.

A man is a general term that can mean all men.

Just like I showed you with "I don't want a man in my house".

That's talking about every man, but is using the words a man.

This is the same case, you just don't want to hear it.

 

[GreenNnice]

A man doesn't mean a man teaching her. You add that in.

A man is a general term that can mean all men.

Just like I showed you with "I don't want a man in my house".

That's talking about every man, but is using the words a man.

This is the same case, you just don't want to hear it.

Tuck? No.

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This thread is flawed in the first place, it's not taking the whole verse in context, it leaves out key, important, contextual words that are NEEDED to fully, rightly understand this 1 Tim. 2:12 verse referenced in the thread title.

I did another thread on it, but, don't be DECEIVED !

The verse in its entirety is this, and, you really need verse 11, too, because verse 12 refers to the women learning from a man's teaching'.

1 Tim. 2:11-12

11 "A woman is to learn in quietness in full submission.
12 I suffer not a woman to teach or have authority over a man, SHE IS TO BE QUIET."

Paul does not PERMIT, in it's most powerful use of the word, hence, 'suffer,' used in some versions, a woman to start teaching a man who is TEACHING her, so she is not to, therefore, have authority over him. Instead, what is she to do when she is LEARNING (from the man's teaching)? She is to be quiet

 

[tucksma]

Tuck? No.

-------
This thread is flawed in the first place, it's not taking the whole verse in context, it leaves out key, important, contextual words that are NEEDED to fully, rightly understand this 1 Tim. 2:12 verse referenced in the thread title.

I did another thread on it, but, don't be DECEIVED !

The verse in its entirety is this, and, you really need verse 11, too, because verse 12 refers to the women learning from a man's teaching'.

1 Tim. 2:11-12

11 "A woman is to learn in quietness in full submission.
12 I suffer not a woman to teach or have authority over a man, SHE IS TO BE QUIET."

Paul does not PERMIT, in it's most powerful use of the word, hence, 'suffer,' used in some versions, a woman to start teaching a man who is TEACHING her, so she is not to, therefore, have authority over him. Instead, what is she to do when she is LEARNING (from the man's teaching)? She is to be quiet

It doesn't say a man who is teaching her though. Also even if it did, it shows A MAN is to be teaching her, not vis versa. youre wrong on your interpretation, but either way the concept that women are not to teach holds true

 

[GreenNnice]

But, tuck, a man is teaching her, she is learning, that's why you have to take the whole of a verse with other verses around, sometimes, otherwise, you won't understand the full context.

She is to be quiet and learn when the man is teaching her. That is what, together, 1 Timothy, chapter 2, verse 11 and 12 say.
There is no way around this, tuck, none. The woman is to LEARN and she is to be QUIET and Paul does not like it one bit, in fact, he won't put up with it, when a woman is trying to teach or have authority over a man who is teaching her something, she is to be quiet. Paul is re-emphasizing the same concept as 1 Cor. 14:34-35. Apparently, in this certain time period, in Corinth, and, then, Ephesus, the women were wanting to not be submissive and learn and were asking questions to their husbands in church when they should have been asking the questions at home to their husbands.
That IS what these two verses are saying, these two verses cannot be seperated, they are connected thoughts. It's not 'the men' either, get over that, you are adding to Scripture when you do that, tuck . It's "a woman,' and, 'the man' or 'a man' who is teaching her something. You are trying to get around the Truth of 'this' Scripture--these two verses--and you just can't do it, bro.

 

[phil112]

green, perhaps you care to explain what Isaiah 3:12 means to you. It certainly isn't talking about law.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

 

[GreenNnice]

green, perhaps you care to explain what Isaiah 3:12 means to you. It certainly isn't talking about law.

I agree, Phil, women are not best to lead . God's Word has mostly men leading for a reason ,but, also, women can lead, they have, not many, but, they have.

 

[phil112]

I agree, Phil, women are not best to lead . God's Word has mostly men leading for a reason ,but, also, women can lead, they have, not many, but, they have.

So you don't see a conflict with that verse and your view of women in the clergy?

 

[GreenNnice]

So you don't see a conflict with that verse and your view of women in the clergy?

There is no conflict, none.There is no absolute in that verse, Phil, nor any other verse in the bible, women can teach men, women can have authority over men, if God so chooses. God can do whatever He wants, phil, and, does, just as I've repeatedly referenced Isaiah 55 and God's thoughts not our thoughts nor God's ways our ways and 1 Corinthians 2, we do not know 'God's mind.' Again, you can think Scripture is saying to you that women are not to ever pastor or teach men, but, ultimately, you do not know what God is doing to accomplsh His glory.
He most certainly can use a woman to lead and she can lead men, too, if God so chooses. And, what's more, He has chosen women to lead, the proof is in the women leading in 100s of churches today, and, God is leading them to be fruitful as they follow Him. God is using these women who have obediently offered themselves to God for His work and this how He has answered them. What's you or me to say how God uses them, brother? Support them,they are in the ministry doing the Lord's work.

 

[phil112]

There is no conflict, none.There is no absolute in that verse, Phil, nor any other verse in the bible, women can teach men, women can have authority over men, if God so chooses. God can do whatever He wants,

I am sure He is glad to have your permission for that.
God does what He wants. Man and woman have different responsibilities and God made each for their own task. Our minds and bodies are different. Men are paternal and women are maternal. A mother has to nuture, be soft, kind, and loving. A man is harder, less forgiving, easier to anger, better equipped by God, to handle that more physical, aggressive task of providing and disciplining. Women aren't warriors. Men do not have the natural gift of nuturing of a mother.

God made us that way, and gave us instructions on how to conduct ourselves and fulfill those roles. You are wilfully blinded.

[SUP] [/SUP]In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not

 

[homwardbound]

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

And man does not do this too? Did they listen to the Prophets from God? They were Male and sent by God. Then finally sent his own Son and man still did not listen? And has distorted the Gospel still to this very day

 

[homwardbound]

I love how you put words in my mouth.

I never said God told me to say these things.
I never said I was more righteous.

I have debated GreenNice for multiple days now on the issue, so I tried. You may check other threads if you wish.

I would never react like that off of one post, its off of MANY posts he has said that made me realize that he isn't honest with himself, is ignorant to truth, and uses faulty reasoning.
You can't teach someone who does not want to be taught.

These are your words:

Alright I'm done. You are ignorant and I cannot teach ignorant people with no logic. You are dead set on your view and are SCRAMBLING for ways to show it. You aren't honest with yourself about scripture.
I've seriously never met someone so blind.

 

[homwardbound]

Anything that the bible says to do, applies to all.

Some things are like meat sacrificed to idols, where some will some wont.

Things that are directly stated are applied to everyone.

Yet there is God's interpretation and man's
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[homwardbound]

Tuck? No.

-------
This thread is flawed in the first place, it's not taking the whole verse in context, it leaves out key, important, contextual words that are NEEDED to fully, rightly understand this 1 Tim. 2:12 verse referenced in the thread title.

I did another thread on it, but, don't be DECEIVED !

The verse in its entirety is this, and, you really need verse 11, too, because verse 12 refers to the women learning from a man's teaching'.

1 Tim. 2:11-12

11 "A woman is to learn in quietness in full submission.
12 I suffer not a woman to teach or have authority over a man, SHE IS TO BE QUIET."

Paul does not PERMIT, in it's most powerful use of the word, hence, 'suffer,' used in some versions, a woman to start teaching a man who is TEACHING her, so she is not to, therefore, have authority over him. Instead, what is she to do when she is LEARNING (from the man's teaching)? She is to be quiet

In you saying this this thought came to mind:
Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Does this not say to be quiet and if read through verse 20, we see we wait on the Holy Ghost to give us the right words when it is time to speak, for all of us as I see this it is God through us that leads, if we are willing to step out of the way, for we do have free choice to be led or lead

 

[homwardbound]

green, perhaps you care to explain what Isaiah 3:12 means to you. It certainly isn't talking about law.

And man does not do this does he?