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elf3
Guest
I am not saying women cannot teach and spread the Gospel I am just saying I believe the Bible teaches us that women are not to be the "heads" or "leaders" of the church.
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kennethcadwell
Guest
I gave you six women in post 13 the bible mentions as either a apostle or in leadership roles in their church in the areas they are from.
Junia is mentioned as a female apostle, to try and twist this as just saying they are well known amongst the apostles is not studying the back ground and meaning of where and who wrote the scripture.
Phoebe is a female and is mentioned as a deacon in the original Greek. Our English translations try to down grade this to helper or servant.
The early church and the area that our bible came from came from an area that even today try to hold women down, not giving them the same rights so they did not like a woman in a leadership role. So during the translation to English they either changed wording to fit their standards, and also left out books like gospel according to Mary, gospel according to Thomas.
They left these books out because they show Mary in a leadership and apostolic role.
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biscuit
Guest
[h=1]What roles can women fill in ministry?[/h]
Question: "What roles can women fill in ministry?"
Answer: Women in ministry is an issue upon which Bible-believing Christians can and do disagree. The point of separation centers on the passages of Scripture that forbid women to speak in church or "assume authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:34). The disagreement is whether or not those passages were relevant only to the era in which they were penned. Some contend that, since there is neither “Jew nor Greek . . . male nor female . . . but you are all one in Christ” (Galatians 3:28), women are free to pursue any field of ministry open to men. Others hold that 1 Timothy 2:12 still applies today, since the basis for the command is not cultural but universal, being rooted in the order of creation (1 Timothy 2:13-14).
First Peter 5:1-4 details the qualifications for an elder. Presbuteros is the Greek word used sixty-six times in the New Testament to indicate “seasoned male overseer.” It is the masculine form of the word. The feminine form, presbutera, is never used in reference to elders or shepherds. Based on the qualifications found in 1 Timothy 3:1-7, the role of an elder is interchangeable with the bishop/pastor/overseer (Titus 1:6-9; 1 Peter 5:1-3). And since, according to 1 Timothy 2:12, a woman should not “teach or exercise authority over a man,” it seems clear that the position of elders and pastors—who must be equipped to teach, lead the congregation, and oversee their spiritual growth (1 Timothy 3:2)—should be reserved for men only.
However, elder/bishop/pastor appears to be the only office reserved for men. Women have always played a significant role in the growth of the church, even being among the few who witnessed the crucifixion of Christ when most of the disciples had run away (Matthew 27:55; John 19:25). The apostle Paul held women in high regard, and in many of his letters to the churches he greeted specific women by name (Romans 16:6, 12;Colossians 4:15; Philippians 4:2-3; Philemon 1:2). Paul addresses these women as "co-workers," and they clearly served the Lord to the benefit of the whole church (Philippians 4:3; Colossians 4:15).
Offices were created in the early church to fit the needs of the body. Although many modern churches interchange the positions of elder and deacon, they were not the same office. Deacons were appointed to serve in a physical capacity as the need arose (Acts 6:2-3). There is no clear prohibition against women serving in this way. In fact, Romans 16:1 may indicate that a woman named Phoebe was a respected deaconess in the church at Rome.
There is no scriptural precedent that forbids women from also serving as worship leaders, youth ministers, or children’s directors. The only restriction is that they do not assume a role of spiritual authority over adult men. Since the concern in Scripture appears to be the issue of spiritual authority rather than function, any role that does not bestow such spiritual authority over adult men is permissible.
Recommended Resources: Women in Ministry: Four Views by Bonnidell & Robert Clouse, eds. and Logos Bible Software.
Answer: Women in ministry is an issue upon which Bible-believing Christians can and do disagree. The point of separation centers on the passages of Scripture that forbid women to speak in church or "assume authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:34). The disagreement is whether or not those passages were relevant only to the era in which they were penned. Some contend that, since there is neither “Jew nor Greek . . . male nor female . . . but you are all one in Christ” (Galatians 3:28), women are free to pursue any field of ministry open to men. Others hold that 1 Timothy 2:12 still applies today, since the basis for the command is not cultural but universal, being rooted in the order of creation (1 Timothy 2:13-14).
First Peter 5:1-4 details the qualifications for an elder. Presbuteros is the Greek word used sixty-six times in the New Testament to indicate “seasoned male overseer.” It is the masculine form of the word. The feminine form, presbutera, is never used in reference to elders or shepherds. Based on the qualifications found in 1 Timothy 3:1-7, the role of an elder is interchangeable with the bishop/pastor/overseer (Titus 1:6-9; 1 Peter 5:1-3). And since, according to 1 Timothy 2:12, a woman should not “teach or exercise authority over a man,” it seems clear that the position of elders and pastors—who must be equipped to teach, lead the congregation, and oversee their spiritual growth (1 Timothy 3:2)—should be reserved for men only.
However, elder/bishop/pastor appears to be the only office reserved for men. Women have always played a significant role in the growth of the church, even being among the few who witnessed the crucifixion of Christ when most of the disciples had run away (Matthew 27:55; John 19:25). The apostle Paul held women in high regard, and in many of his letters to the churches he greeted specific women by name (Romans 16:6, 12;Colossians 4:15; Philippians 4:2-3; Philemon 1:2). Paul addresses these women as "co-workers," and they clearly served the Lord to the benefit of the whole church (Philippians 4:3; Colossians 4:15).
Offices were created in the early church to fit the needs of the body. Although many modern churches interchange the positions of elder and deacon, they were not the same office. Deacons were appointed to serve in a physical capacity as the need arose (Acts 6:2-3). There is no clear prohibition against women serving in this way. In fact, Romans 16:1 may indicate that a woman named Phoebe was a respected deaconess in the church at Rome.
There is no scriptural precedent that forbids women from also serving as worship leaders, youth ministers, or children’s directors. The only restriction is that they do not assume a role of spiritual authority over adult men. Since the concern in Scripture appears to be the issue of spiritual authority rather than function, any role that does not bestow such spiritual authority over adult men is permissible.
Recommended Resources: Women in Ministry: Four Views by Bonnidell & Robert Clouse, eds. and Logos Bible Software.
Related Topics:
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elf3
Guest
Wait hold on a second are you saying the gospel according to Mary and the gospel according to Thomas should have been added?
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biscuit
Guest
[h=1]Women pastors / preachers? Can a woman be a pastor or preacher?[/h]
Question: "Women pastors / preachers? Can a woman be a pastor or preacher?"
Answer: There is perhaps no more hotly debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors/preachers. As a result, it is very important to not see this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women, and there are men who believe women can serve as preachers and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of biblical interpretation.
The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11-12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13-14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority.
There are many “objections” to this view of women in ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, the majority of Jesus' disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, who was the pastor of the church in Ephesus). The city of Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, a false Greek/Roman goddess. Women were the authority in the worship of Artemis. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention Artemis worship as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.
A third common objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words in the passage could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of the words refers to men and women. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8-10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9-10)? Of course not. Verses 8-10 clearly refer to all men and women, not only husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a switch to husbands and wives in verses 11-14.
Yet another frequent objection to this interpretation of women in ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. This objection fails to note some significant factors. First, Deborah was the only female judge among 13 male judges. Huldah was the only female prophet among dozens of male prophets mentioned in the Bible. Miriam's only connection to leadership was being the sister of Moses and Aaron. The two most prominent women in the times of the Kings were Athaliah and Jezebel—hardly examples of godly female leadership. Most significantly, though, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue. The book of 1 Timothy and the other Pastoral Epistles present a new paradigm for the church—the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves the authority structure for the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.
Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more “prominent” in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).
In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a “deaconess” instead of a “servant,” that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders/bishops/deacons are described as the “husband of one wife,” “a man whose children believe,” and “men worthy of respect.” Clearly the indication is that these qualifications refer to men. In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders/bishops/deacons.
The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the “reason” perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for” and gives the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived.” God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. This order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable, but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.
Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.
Recommended Resources: Two Views on Women in Ministry, Revised by James R. Beck, ed. and Logo
Answer: There is perhaps no more hotly debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors/preachers. As a result, it is very important to not see this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women, and there are men who believe women can serve as preachers and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of biblical interpretation.
The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11-12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13-14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority.
There are many “objections” to this view of women in ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, the majority of Jesus' disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, who was the pastor of the church in Ephesus). The city of Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, a false Greek/Roman goddess. Women were the authority in the worship of Artemis. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention Artemis worship as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.
A third common objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words in the passage could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of the words refers to men and women. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8-10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9-10)? Of course not. Verses 8-10 clearly refer to all men and women, not only husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a switch to husbands and wives in verses 11-14.
Yet another frequent objection to this interpretation of women in ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. This objection fails to note some significant factors. First, Deborah was the only female judge among 13 male judges. Huldah was the only female prophet among dozens of male prophets mentioned in the Bible. Miriam's only connection to leadership was being the sister of Moses and Aaron. The two most prominent women in the times of the Kings were Athaliah and Jezebel—hardly examples of godly female leadership. Most significantly, though, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue. The book of 1 Timothy and the other Pastoral Epistles present a new paradigm for the church—the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves the authority structure for the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.
Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more “prominent” in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).
In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a “deaconess” instead of a “servant,” that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders/bishops/deacons are described as the “husband of one wife,” “a man whose children believe,” and “men worthy of respect.” Clearly the indication is that these qualifications refer to men. In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders/bishops/deacons.
The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the “reason” perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for” and gives the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived.” God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. This order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable, but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.
Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.
Recommended Resources: Two Views on Women in Ministry, Revised by James R. Beck, ed. and Logo
Well, that 's the thing! I've read book Piper wrote on Romans 9, concerning the Greek, and I didn't totally agree with his 5 point Calvinism. But I have yet to find anything either Grudem or Piper has written on the exegesis of the Greek particularly on 1Tim 2:12 and 1 Cor. 14:34-35. Besides, Piper has been a pastor forever, so I would imagine his Greek is a bit rusty?
Have you seen their writings on the topic in the Greek, Stilly, or just taking it on hope that your opinion is true and somewhere someone can actually back it up?
Here is a good link to the nonsense he believes about women, with nary a Bible verse in sight.
Wayne Grudem: 83 Biblical Rules for Gospel Women | The Wartburg Watch 2014
I wouldn't spend the time reading his books, but if you want to read his books to look for the Greek, go for it and let me know what you find.
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kennethcadwell
Guest
No I am not saying they should have.
The reason being is that the gospel according to Mary is an incomplete work, there are six pages missing from the book, so it needs to be a completed work to be a part. And the six missing pages have not been found.
The gospel of Thomas should not be included tell we are allowed to see a study done to show the correct translation to English. The early translation was in error, because it quotes Thomas as saying that a woman must become a man to enter heaven. This was a false translation, but a new full study of translating it to English has not been allowed for the public to have.
My only point is that what we do have from both of these, and also one of the main reason left out was they showed Mary in a leadership role.
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elf3
Guest
Then if they shouldn't be added and aren't added they in no way can be used as God's Word or an authority for any type of Biblical teaching no matter what they say or any argument found in them.
Biscuit, do you know what plagiarism is? It is stealing someone's writing and presenting it as your own! As in the above post which I am not bothering to post in the interests of space.
Acknowledge your sources. For instance, a simple link to your post follows.
Women pastors / preachers? Can a woman be a pastor or preacher?
First, there was nothing in that copy & paste about the Greek,
Second, you lose tremendous credibility when you copy and paste and fail to post sources!
Acknowledge your sources. For instance, a simple link to your post follows.
Women pastors / preachers? Can a woman be a pastor or preacher?
First, there was nothing in that copy & paste about the Greek,
Second, you lose tremendous credibility when you copy and paste and fail to post sources!
I don't need an "ounce of education. "
All I need is God's blessed Book.
And that Book is the King James Holy Bible.
Many If not most Christians who go to seminary get messed up. And their faith in the word of God is destroyed in the wicked apostate seminaries.
There were plenty of Solid Old Time Bible believing preachers who got great work done for the Lord. And likewise; the preachers who are getting a lot of work done for the Lord today are King James Bible believing preachers.
And the last time I checked, many of them did not even go to seminary. All they needed was God's word. And they believed God's word. They believed the English Bible text as it stood. And that is why they were so effective in the ministry.
They were not corrupted by the Alexandrian "originals only" baloney.
Angela, I suggest that you spend sometime in isolation and solitude and to just seek the Lord humbly and ask Him to give you the faith to believe His Book.
Also; Angela, you have it backwards. It was not the Received Text that was corrupted. It was the Alexandrian texts (Siniaticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus), which are corrupted.
Go and read some books written by John Dean William Burgon. He covers a lot of the information in his writings on the several text types.
And I recommend that anyone who wants accurate and honest scholarship, to read Dean Burgon's books.
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biscuit
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kennethcadwell
Guest
They are used for the fact of women in leadership roles of the church, as well as the previous women I gave you that were in leadership roles in their church areas. The scriptures were changed when translated to English to hide the fact of this.
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elf3
Guest
Chosen I am not sure if you noticed this or not but....This was a decent discussion before you "babbled". Saying "many if not most Christians who go to seminary get messed up" is way off the mark. Also yes you can have God's book but you know you have to read it right?
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elf3
Guest
Those "books" cannot be used in any Biblical teaching where God's Word is involved. If you are trying to use them in any way to try and prove a Biblical topic then I am sorry I cannot believe you feel the Bible is "God breathed".
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elf3
Guest
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kennethcadwell
Guest
The scriptures is written by men who were inspired by God.
This saying is in the bible.
The problem people have is that men have always interfered with God's word. Even God says do not add or take away from the scriptures which unfortunately is what man has done when translated from the original Hebrew or Greek to the other languages including the English ones we use.
If you don't study at least a little about the original language the OT and NT was written in compared to our English you would not see the mistranslations.
I use to be like you and some others who believe the bibles from the KJV all the way through the others to the NIV were not in error. The most important message in believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and following His teachings/way still remain the same. But other things have been changed to fit personal philosophies, customs, and morals that the bible specifically also says not to do.
I do believe the bible is Gods word to us, but I am also smart enough thinks be to God through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that man corrupts and defiles the word of God. And I do as directed by the Lord our God to test and question things to make sure they are the true word of God. The only way to do that is to know the original texts.
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elf3
Guest
Fine and dandy but you didn't answer my question. Do you believe those two books are "God breathed" the Word of God?
I believe that man has been directed by the Holy Spirit but to say that the entirety of the bible is what God intended or His fullness of truth is not correct for Jesus had even given us an example of this when He spoke about The Law of Divorcement that Moses had given us due to the hardness of our hearts and yet it was in the Old Testament and Moses was one of God's biggest or well known prophets so i would say that even the New Testament has passed down "scripture" that wasn't God's fullness of truth or intention. An example to me is when Peter or maybe it was Paul sorry i always get them mixed up but anyway they said to not argue amongst themselves over the Sabbath and that the Lord had said that the Sabbath was for man so yet again because of the hardness of our hearts the Sabbath has been changed to represent the difference between of the Jews and Christians most Christians celebrate on the day Jesus was resurrected as the Sabbath even though our Lord and Saviour fulfilled the law by recognizing it as it always had been since creation so there is one example in my opinion
No, seriously, the Byzantine texts are the corrupted ones. And I am quite sure I know my Bible much better than someone who has to post Ruckman videos to shore up his lack of education and understanding of scholarship, to prove his point.
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elf3
Guest
Angela to tell the truth if I were you I wouldn't waste my time responding to this person. I think it's pretty obvious they don't have your education so they can't quite debate you.
you know..just saying