Women Pastors? Help me.

[Depleted]

Sexism - At what point does a woman no longer have authority over a man.

A mother instructs their son. The basis is not sexist but based on experience.
For instance in cooking mothers often are very skilled and the men not.
So if the man wants to cook they need to take instruction from a woman.

So equally in any subject or skill, the skilled person instructs the unskilled.

So in Pauls day who were skilled, educated, able to discuss or argue points?
The men, because women were not deemed worthy of education. So in response
to this cultural reality, it would be reasonable to bias men over women.

Today this is no longer true. And we value content not the sex of the person
who delivers it.

Speaking of sexism, have you never read Proverbs 31? We ain't barefoot and pregnant. Nor have we been in over 3000 years. We women are as much of the church as men, we're merely different than men.

(BTW, in Paul's day the slaves were the educators. So this doesn't even work at any level in blaming it on Paul's day.)

 

[PinkDiamond]

Speaking of sexism, have you never read Proverbs 31? We ain't barefoot and pregnant. Nor have we been in over 3000 years. We women are as much of the church as men, we're merely different than men.

(BTW, in Paul's day the slaves were the educators. So this doesn't even work at any level in blaming it on Paul's day.)

Good point. I think the account of Lydia is interesting too. She was quite the influential business woman. She's like the NT equivalent of Proverbs 31. I also don't think it's coincidental that Christ chose to first appear to a woman after his resurrection. He knew we'd have to deal with all these strange ideas hundreds/ thousands of years later haha

During the Roman Empire, Christian women had to endure the same horrors and brutal deaths that the men did. I used to enjoy reading about Catherine and William Booth and their ordeals as they founded the Salvation Army. She often was threatened and had things thrown at her as she preached alongside her husband on the streets of England. Mary Slessor was another example. She was nicknamed the "Queen of the Cannibals." She was in constant danger and ministered in areas of Africa that many dared not to venture.

 

[Depleted]

Ladies,
We can be thankful there are people smart enough to never let some of the braying jackasses (males) we hear get into positions of power, themselves.

You did not just say that after the last 8 years living in the US, did you? Apparently, people aren't all that smart. AND "the donkeys" are still in power. lol

 

[Depleted]

I find it interesting that some guys don't think that a Christian woman should ever instruct or counsel a man. While I do think it's the norm to have male ministers, I think we need to be open to special situations. I think that all Christians regardless of gender should be meek and humble enough to receive reproof or advice from anyone that has wisdom from God. It's a bad sign to me if a person can only receive instruction from someone they deem " worthy " enough. God used a donkey to stop Balaam from cursing Israel. He also has used small children. He used Samuel to reprove Eli the priest and prophesy the destruction on Eli's household. God can choose whatever medium or vessel he desires.

Sure, but there is a difference between being used by God for a moment, or even occasionally, and then taking on an office appointed by God. "Pastor" is an office.

(I'm not sure everyone is getting what I believe. I really do think women can have any gift God gives us, and can hold any office except pastor. And this isn't something to do with sinning or going outside God's will. I just don't think we're fully equipped to do it as thoroughly as a guy. If it can be done, minus needing to counsel couples and minus older men in the congregation, even I don't have problems with a woman pastor.)

 

[maxwel]

Speaking of sexism, have you never read Proverbs 31? We ain't barefoot and pregnant. Nor have we been in over 3000 years. We women are as much of the church as men, we're merely different than men.

(BTW, in Paul's day the slaves were the educators. So this doesn't even work at any level in blaming it on Paul's day.)

Depleted,
I'm not trying to start an argument, but I'm just curious about your point on slaves being educators, and exactly what you meant by that.


1. I think in Paul's time, "some" of the tutors for wealthy families, in Rome, would have been Greek slaves... but I don't think this applies to Hebrew education.
Maybe this would apply to a few wealthy Hebrew families that could "also" afford classical Greek education.

(Whether Paul had a Greek slave for a tutor or not, we DO know that he had a lot of classical Greek education... there's no question about that.)


2. I also don't think we want to accidentally imply that all slaves were educators (which I'm sure you didn't mean, but some people might inadvertently read into your statement)


3. So, overall, I don't think we want to accidentally imply that all Hebrews were educated by Greek slaves, or that all slaves were educators.

Just trying to clarify things, and see if you have anything cool or exciting to add.



Feel free to clarify, elaborate or whatever.
If you have more information, please feel free to link it.
Sometimes people just say things in a hurry, and I get confused by it... and there's no real need for debate.

If you do have some different, or more elaborate information on this, please let me know.

God Bless,
Max

 

[Depleted]

We hear this argument EVERY DAY in the BDF about this single word, & that is CONTEXT!

BOTH scriptures used against women say NOTHING about MINISTRY. They do, however speak about the family.

So, to those that cry aloud about women's places..... Find YOUR PLACE & study to show yourselves approved. Quit going on what others taught you all your life & read for yourselves!

Several translations have covered up female leaders in the church, with the KJV leading the way. King James & the Archbishop of Canterbury had a hand in it. They covered up female leadership, while lifting up man's position in the church to establish the church of England & the Archbishop's office as the highest in the church.

Ummm, huh? I really have studied this. I really have nothing against women in any position other than pastor. (And I really do think most people are confused pastor with teacher, evangelist, prophet, leadership, and so much more. I specifically mean pastor/shepherd.)

 

[stonesoffire]

No one with even a hint of common sense will "like" this post if they want to live...lol

buc buc buc...tee hee...

Well, the evil side of men would be to let them.

 

[Stephen63]

Can you post Scripture stating your claims? Thanks.

I believe it was Magenta that noticed how the greek was twisted to show every man as a "minister" & every woman as a "servant" with the same greek word. That's a little obvious, dont you think?

The word "office" has no place in the Bible. It was added. The word "bishop" has no place in scripture, either. It's proper name should have been "elder"

Don't you know that King James was a wicked man? He established the Church of England to break away from the RCC & its authority because they told him he couldn't divorce his wife.

The Church of England was a Protestant version of the Catholic church with its traditions & rules. The main difference was the King of England & the Archbishop was it's heads instead of a pope. Both has man-established power, man-ruled, without true servanthood. They BOTH were evil.

It's because of the KJV we have all our protestant churches with leadership positions in them weilding power to set up & tear down instead of serving the people like the early church did.

What church today ISN'T putting programs together with heads over them to build their congregations?

The reasons why the church isn't growing today is because leadership is always being taught instead of SERVANTSHIP. Leadership requires power & with it arrogance & pride. Servantship requires humility, availability & a willingness to serve.

Thus we have a crippled church with people waiting in line for a position, but nobody wants to be the church's servant & volunteer. Youth ministry is an excellent example of this.

 

[Depleted]

Counseling, as well as any other ministry, ought to be Spirit-led, qualifying the individual, not school. School has its place, but most don't know where that place is.

I was a counselor minus the schooling. I counseled addicts, runaways/throwaway youth, and was a group home parent for teen boys caught up in the foster system.

I remember it well. I spent four months wondering if a girl killed herself over what I said in counseling. (She did not, thankfully.) No. Really. No one should be a counselor without schooling.

And schooling keeps you in check. Had I gone to school to become a counselor, I would have realized I don't have the heart to be a counselor. (I'm really not supposed to think about shooting someone for whining, right? And I really did carry it home with me. Four months of being a nervous wreck because I could not call that girl to tell her I was sorry and don't listen to a word I said.) I learned counseling by doing what I saw counselors do without any knowledge of why or when. It was a disaster!

It is a God given gift. It also has to be learned, just like being a teacher has to be learned.

 

[Depleted]

Good point. I think the account of Lydia is interesting too. She was quite the influential business woman. She's like the NT equivalent of Proverbs 31. I also don't think it's coincidental that Christ chose to first appear to a woman after his resurrection. He knew we'd have to deal with all these strange ideas hundreds/ thousands of years later haha

During the Roman Empire, Christian women had to endure the same horrors and brutal deaths that the men did. I used to enjoy reading about Catherine and William Booth and their ordeals as they founded the Salvation Army. She often was threatened and had things thrown at her as she preached alongside her husband on the streets of England. Mary Slessor was another example. She was nicknamed the "Queen of the Cannibals." She was in constant danger and ministered in areas of Africa that many dared not to venture.

Lydia, the seller of purple cloth, is my hero.

 

[Magenta]

Lydia, the seller of purple cloth, is my hero.

As soon as someone says Lydia, I always think, purple

 

[Magenta]

Lydia is considered to be the first documented convert to Christianity in Europe.

 

[Depleted]

Depleted,
I'm not trying to start an argument, but I'm just curious about your point on slaves being educators, and exactly what you meant by that.


1. I think in Paul's time, "some" of the tutors for wealthy families, in Rome, would have been Greek slaves... but I don't think this applies to Hebrew education.
Maybe this would apply to a few wealthy Hebrew families that could "also" afford classical Greek education.

(Whether Paul had a Greek slave for a tutor or not, we DO know that he had a lot of classical Greek education... there's no question about that.)


2. I also don't think we want to accidentally imply that all slaves were educators (which I'm sure you didn't mean, but some people might inadvertently read into your statement)


3. So, overall, I don't think we want to accidentally imply that all Hebrews were educated by Greek slaves, or that all slaves were educators.

Just trying to clarify things, and see if you have anything cool or exciting to add.



Feel free to clarify, elaborate or whatever.
If you have more information, please feel free to link it.
Sometimes people just say things in a hurry, and I get confused by it... and there's no real need for debate.

If you do have some different, or more elaborate information on this, please let me know.

God Bless,
Max

Ack! You're right. I didn't mean to imply most of that. When Rome conquered Greece, they enslaved them all. And brought back the educated ones to tutor their kids. (That's how the Roman gods all became just like the Greek gods, except in names.)

As for Paul's upbringing? Got to go with he was educated deeply into the OT given he was a Pharisee. But he also lived in Tarsus, which was in the process of being conquered in his lifetime. Considering he was a Roman citizen and he was up to defend himself in Rome, I suspect, but can't prove, he was tutored in both civilizations. By slaves? Unknown.

But educated slaves were held in esteem by the Romans. It was more like being a favorite uncle without the possibility of leaving when you were tired of the family.

And women? Well, Julius Cesar had the hots for Cleopatra, Lydia had her own business, there was a prophetess at the time of Jesus' birth, (forgot her name and what she said), so it wasn't like women were looked down on.

I get this overall impression Peter thinks women and slaves were best seen, but not heard. Definitely not the landscape of that era and location.

 

[Willie-T]

You did not just say that after the last 8 years living in the US, did you? Apparently, people aren't all that smart. AND "the donkeys" are still in power. lol

But, "WE" haven't heard Obama or Hillary saying a word on this, or any other, Christian forum.

 

[Depleted]

I believe it was Magenta that noticed how the greek was twisted to show every man as a "minister" & every woman as a "servant" with the same greek word. That's a little obvious, dont you think?

The word "office" has no place in the Bible. It was added. The word "bishop" has no place in scripture, either. It's proper name should have been "elder"

Don't you know that King James was a wicked man? He established the Church of England to break away from the RCC & its authority because they told him he couldn't divorce his wife.

The Church of England was a Protestant version of the Catholic church with its traditions & rules. The main difference was the King of England & the Archbishop was it's heads instead of a pope. Both has man-established power, man-ruled, without true servanthood. They BOTH were evil.

It's because of the KJV we have all our protestant churches with leadership positions in them weilding power to set up & tear down instead of serving the people like the early church did.

What church today ISN'T putting programs together with heads over them to build their congregations?

The reasons why the church isn't growing today is because leadership is always being taught instead of SERVANTSHIP. Leadership requires power & with it arrogance & pride. Servantship requires humility, availability & a willingness to serve.

Thus we have a crippled church with people waiting in line for a position, but nobody wants to be the church's servant & volunteer. Youth ministry is an excellent example of this.

Broooooooooooooaddddddd Stroke!

 

[LaurenTM]

Lauren: You are missing the point(maybe because you want to), we did not create ourselves, we are a creation by a Person, He created the man first, and then He created a mate for Him, a woman. Because of this God has placed certain things in order, only men were priests, only men were apostles, and women were not to be over men in the church. When I come on a forum or talk to people I always warn then about the consequences of disobeying a clear command from God as recorded in scripture, it does not matter what the subject is.

awwww

you think so? I don't think so

you ignore all the scriptures provided by others who demonstrate that women were absolutely participating in leadership
and try to patronize me..after attemtping to intimidate by stating you have to answer to God etc

these are the same ole things that men who enjoy treating women like 2nd class citizens of earth AND heaven have employed for centuries...tired, sad and not godly

you have blinders on because they give you the only view you actually want

God said let us make man in our image...so three Persons really...and I have the same Holy Spirit residing in me that resided in the ALL the apostles...not a 2nd rate spirit...why do you and other men just like you, resent that so much?

you always warn people...great...let me warn you...God really does not like it when people misrepresent Him as you are doing

I'm not over anyone...but I am as much a person as my husband and of equal worth

women are not sidekicks and it is just indicative of how far men have fallen that some think women were created only for their own pleasure


there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus and yes there is order...just not the one you try so hard to push

 

[Magenta]

A... there was a prophetess at the time of Jesus' birth, (forgot her name and what she said), so it wasn't like women were looked down on...

Luke 2:36-38 (NIV)36
There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.38 Coming up to them (Mary, Joseph, and baby Jesus) at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child (Jesus) to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.

 

[LaurenTM]

=Demi777;2921725]yes the priest were men only. we are in the new covenant now where we dont need animals to be killed etc.
Jesus had hundrets and thousands of apostles. not just the twelve. you cant tell me they were only men, you werent there, nor is it written.

well exactly

we know there were both women and men and the women are well represented ESPECIALLY considering that at the time of the events recorded, women did not have the same rights as men, so, perhaps in truth, it is actually more remarkable to see women mentioned and being called a judge, or a prophetess or a deacon...ALL things ignored by Samuel and men like him

at any rate, these men have done such a great job of it all.....

 

[LaurenTM]

Were they pastors? Or were they women who God used in a mighty way?

how very childish and boorish of you

so people give biblical evidence to support the role of women and you basically put your nose in the air and call them inferior to men

listen...I know we are dealing with your ATTITUDE and your PERCEIVED self importance....but if I had any doubt (I didn't) you just made my point for me

Deborah was JUDGE over ALL of Israel and men who could not do what she did, came to HER for advice and decisions

that is even bigger than pastor I'm thinking...she had the ENTIRE country

 

[renewed_hope]

Speaking of sexism, have you never read Proverbs 31? We ain't barefoot and pregnant. Nor have we been in over 3000 years. We women are as much of the church as men, we're merely different than men.

(BTW, in Paul's day the slaves were the educators. So this doesn't even work at any level in blaming it on Paul's day.)

Well, when I first read your statement I kept thinking about the story of Cinderella...she was so unappreciated by her step mother and sisters and then she was blessed meeting prince charming.

Then i thought about biblical references like the story of Ruth and Boaz..She was obedient and cared for Naomi whom she had no ties to anymore since her husband died, but she continued being supportive and helped her mother in law. By doing this God blessed her with Boaz. Life may not turn out the way we expect. But i do believe God created men and women with a certain purpose, but he also created all of us individually with different gifts. What i mean by purpose is women are more emotional creatures and men are created for leadership or as the protectors. When God joins together a man and woman and they bring together the two becomes one. Esther was a woman who used her strength and wisdom God gave her to stand up to her husband to save her people risking not only her life but the lives of her peeps is a good example of a God given gift.