Women Pastors? Help me.

[Depleted]

I see Trofimus is doing his job stirring up another hornets nest. tisk tisk

​As far as I see, Trofimus is presenting his case. Lauren has the stick poking into the hornet's nest.

 

[StanJ]

This is an argument of negatives. In Pauls day, the 10 years or so of his ministry, there were not
women who were capable of fulfilling the roles. That society has decided women were wives and family
makers, and stopped at that.
Today women are equal to men in all things. The principles of respect and family apply equally to
them, so a bishop must have only one partner, etc.

There WERE women in Paul's day who did fulfill those roles. Rom 16:1, 3, 7, & 1 Cor 16:9.

 

[Depleted]

I did make myself clear, and you fail to understand something so simple, that originated from you! Since you want to attach meaning regarding women not being able to teach to the fact that Eve sinned, while Adam's sin was the greater, and it was Adam's sin, NOT EVE'S, that caused ALL of creation to fall and all of humanity thereafter to be estranged from God. Perhaps that is too complex for you to grasp? You thinking that Paul is hard to understand and all...

He's not a native-english speaker. And I got what you said differently than you intended it. Try rewording what you said, so maybe he can understand your question. He's not against answering. He can't, because he doesn't understand the question.

 

[88]

They can pastor if they are called----- same for men...

 

[StanJ]

Again, what do you want to say? That Paul was wrong in his letter to Timothy? That women should not be quiet?

Only in the context that Paul was referring to, or do you also believe that women can only be saved through childbearing as Paul states in verse 15. One is to know and understand the context wherein these instructions were written and not just pick them out of thin air.

 

[Depleted]

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." 1 Tim 2:14

Everything, since Paul says in that verse that it was Eve who sinned and that therefore is the reason given why she should not teach, where elsewhere we know from Paul's writing that Adam sinned also, and not only did Adam sin, his sin was the greater having the fall of ALL creation attributed to his transgression, as well as sin and death entering the world because of his sin, and all of humanity being born with a sin nature, estranged from God because of Adam's sin, not because of Eve's sin. Adam's sin was not mere deception but outright disobedience.

It seems pretty obvious to me. Did you really miss it???

Orrrr, since Eve was deceptive, she downright knew what she was doing was wrong, and therefore she knew she was sinning. BUT that did not change everything! That she was so sneaky that she talked hubby into and then he went for what she wanted over what God wanted made him responsible. Because, again, he's the guy and is supposed to lead the wife into the ways of God, instead of going for any little itch that she wants him to scratch.

This is a condemnation of women too, because she knew. She absolutely knew, or it wouldn't be deceptive. We heard what the serpent said to her. If she didn't know she would have asked the obvious questions, "What are you talking about? Did God say what? I don't know. I never heard this before." And that she could tickle Adam's fancy enough to go for a piece of fruit over God's one and only command? We are that conniving still. We're no better than Eve, and men are no better than Adam. That's why the man is the head. And that's why they have to act out of love for us, instead of what they'd get out of it if they listen to our every whim. And that's why we submit, because we absolutely know how to push our guy's buttons just right.

Again. Same scripture taken from different POV. Is that something to get huffy over because someone disagrees with exactly how you take it?

The truth is easy enough. If women pastors offend you, avoid them. Don't go to a church that has them. If they don't? Then what does this matter?

Me? They make me uneasy from my understanding of the scripture. That doesn't stop me from thinking they have a different understanding, and we just won't know who's right until God clarifies in eternity. I strongly suspect we'll all go, "Ooooh! That's what that means. I didn't get that one right either, huh?"

But we find out together! So why is everyone getting so bent out of shape over such a minor disagreement?

 

[trofimus]

Right. Because the man has the mantle. (Part of why I have trouble thinking women should be pastors. Men get stuck with the responsibilities, as exampled by Paul bringing up Adam and Eve.) I know you hate that I believe that, but it does go hand-in-hand with what I believe.

Its good to see a woman who based her faith on what the Bible says and not on the culture.

 

[Depleted]

Ahhh, the good ole days. Someone make me a sandwich.

(Be careful what you wish. lol)

 

[Depleted]

Broad is so 1920's. I prefer hootchie momma.

The street that divides Philly into east and west is Broad Street. One of the earlier versions of Microsoft Word kept telling me that "Broad" was an inappropriate word, and I should change it into "Woman." lol

 

[trofimus]

Only in the context that Paul was referring to, or do you also believe that women can only be saved through childbearing as Paul states in verse 15. One is to know and understand the context wherein these instructions were written and not just pick them out of thin air.

I believe the place should be translated "through the birth of the child" [i.e. Jesus Christ, brought into the world through Mary].

And this event was a great privilege of a woman, promised to Eve.

 

[StanJ]

I believe the place should be translated "through the birth of the child" [i.e. Jesus Christ, brought into the world through Mary].
And this event was a great privilege of a woman, promised to Eve.

Well I have heard that explanation before but it's not in the original Greek so I'm more prone to believe that the situation was that if a man was saved and was leading a household then his family being under him and subject to him would also be saved if they followed his example. For me the scripture that backs that up is in Acts 16:29-34.

 

[trofimus]

The fireworks started here, so Happy New Year to all

 

[trofimus]

Well I have heard that explanation before but it's not in the original Greek so I'm more prone to believe that the situation was that if a man was saved and was leading a household then his family being under him and subject to him would also be saved if they followed his example. For me the scripture that backs that up is in Acts 16:29-34.

I think it is in the original Greek.

Tekno[child]gonia[birth].

 

[StanJ]

I think it is in the original Greek.

Tekno[child]gonia[birth].

Those two words do not even remotely imply what you asserted previously.

 

[trofimus]

Those two words do not even remotely imply what you asserted previously.

I dont know what you want it to imply.

a) It can be translated that a woman will be saved through the birth of the child.

b) Or, it can be translated like "she will be saved through childbearing".

You can choose what you wish and what you think is in the line with the rest of the Bible.

 

[Desertsrose]

Precursor. Not the same thing. (If it were then why become something else, right?) The church I'm referring to was part of "The discipleship movement." Matter of fact, the charlatan I often refer to as the Jimmy Jones of that church, caused an unwanted effect to that movement. He did exactly what some feared would happen if people took discipleship too far. Didn't the guy who started Calvary Chapel come from discipleship too? (I think his name is something like Wimble, Whimbley, Whimber. I really can't remember enough to look him up to find out who he is again.) That old church I was in back then evolved, and then devolved since then, but they were Pentecostal and nondenom. Connected to other churches. They just never got so organized as to come up with a name, so nondenom. (Without name.)

I wasn't saying anything against your church. But, let's face it, Angela knows how different your beliefs are to mine, and yet when I was young, I was a lot closer to your beliefs than you can imagine. lol

Wimber pastored this new church, which would later become known as the Anaheim Vineyard Christian Fellowship, from 1977 to 1994. Eventually, it outgrew his home and began to meet elsewhere. After initially joining Calvary Chapel, the church had some differences with the Calvary Chapel leadership, relating mainly to the practice of spiritual gifts, his rejection of traditional Dispensationalism, and his embrace of Kingdom theology. As a result, they left Calvary Chapel to join a small group of churches started by Kenn Gulliksen, known as Vineyard Christian Fellowships, which became an international Vineyard Movement. I didn't realize they began with Calvar Chapel.


Beginning in 1965 in Southern California, this fellowship of churches grew out of Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Doctrinally, Calvary Chapel is evangelical, charismatic, pretribulationist, and believes in the principle of sola scriptura.[SUP][5][/SUP]

 

[samuel23]

This is not a difficult biblical teaching to understand. The NT teaches that a woman has the same relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ that a man has. She can preach, teach, prophecy, pray, however, in an assembly of men and women, God has said that the men are to lead. This concept is taught throughout the bible. Even though Eve was the first to sin, yet God went first to Adam because Adam was the leader. All books of the bible are written by men. Those given the law and appointed to teach it were all men. A man introduced Jesus to the world. The twelve apostles were all men. The idea that God does not see male and female is not born out by scripture. 1Cor 11:3 I would have you to know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. God has a clear order and He wants men to lead. What we have today is a Pentecostal movement that from it's inception has spit in the face of God in regards to the teaching from God that only men should lead. That is only one of the many serious errors that Pentecostalism teaches, this movement is not of God.

 

[Yiska]

So Im basically looking for some closure on this subject.

When I was 5 years old the first church I ever started attending was lead by A female Pastor. I was a regular for about 10 years. The pastor and My grandmother were best friends and she Preached at her funeral when he passed tragically.
I was saved at this church and witnessed many life changing things.

To me she was called. The absolutely incredible ways I would see God move through our church services and the amazing ways she would minister to us and help us really never made me doubt here calling. She was and still is my biggest inspiration as far as everything I hope to be one day.

So after reading that you can now imagine how hard it is to read passages like 1 Timothy 3- "The Husband of One Wife"
and 1 Tim 2:12 "I do not permit a women to teach nor have authority over a man"
And I also read about the Women Prophets of the Old testament like Miriam and others. And also places that speak of women prophesying.


I've had people tell me that the one I look up to the most is a false teacher because she is a women leading a church. That hurts my soul to hear things like that but I never want to argue the Scripture.

What is your take on the subject? Would you doubt someone's calling despite all of the wonderful fruit they produce?
Is our understanding of these passages wrong? Let me know what you think please.



This is the church and The Pastor I am referring to. --> Stephanie Taylor: Jesus Saves the Stripper | CBN.com (The pastor comes in later, not stephiane)

Greetings, here is a passage that I hope will bring much comfort to you! I have more Scriptures in mind but I just got out of the hospital yesterday and am recovering from major surgery. May God bless you and also I would appreciate your prayers and the prayers from anyone reading this message. You have nothing to be ashamed of how God chose to bring to His message of salvation (Isaiah 55:11), and may no one be able steal your testimony, or your joy!


2 Timothy 1:3-5 New King James Version (NKJV)

I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day, greatly desiring to see you, being mindful of your tears, that I may be filled with joy, when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.

 

[Willie-T]

Recover quickly, Yiska.

 

[Magenta]

Orrrr, since Eve was deceptive, she downright knew what she was doing was wrong, and therefore she knew she was sinning. BUT that did not change everything! That she was so sneaky that she talked hubby into and then he went for what she wanted over what God wanted made him responsible. Because, again, he's the guy and is supposed to lead the wife into the ways of God, instead of going for any little itch that she wants him to scratch.

This is a condemnation of women too, because she knew. She absolutely knew, or it wouldn't be deceptive. We heard what the serpent said to her. If she didn't know she would have asked the obvious questions, "What are you talking about? Did God say what? I don't know. I never heard this before." And that she could tickle Adam's fancy enough to go for a piece of fruit over God's one and only command? We are that conniving still. We're no better than Eve, and men are no better than Adam. That's why the man is the head. And that's why they have to act out of love for us, instead of what they'd get out of it if they listen to our every whim. And that's why we submit, because we absolutely know how to push our guy's buttons just right.

Again. Same scripture taken from different POV. Is that something to get huffy over because someone disagrees with exactly how you take it?

The truth is easy enough. If women pastors offend you, avoid them. Don't go to a church that has them. If they don't? Then what does this matter?

Me? They make me uneasy from my understanding of the scripture. That doesn't stop me from thinking they have a different understanding, and we just won't know who's right until God clarifies in eternity. I strongly suspect we'll all go, "Ooooh! That's what that means. I didn't get that one right either, huh?"

But we find out together! So why is everyone getting so bent out of shape over such a minor disagreement?

Except the text does not say that Eve was being deceptive AT ALL, it says she was deceived. Big difference, in my view. So you can read all that in there and add to Scripture all you like, while I shall refrain. And for the record, I am not bent out of shape or being huffy. LOL. Now maybe you are saying that to me and meaning other people, sometimes you say the darndest things while quoting me and then tell me you were not talking to me at all. So you can understand perhaps why you are confused in my view, not just to add to Scripture as you so clearly have but to address me in ways that are not applicable to me.

There is neither male male nor female in Christ Jesus. Given what I see some of the men here say, I am far more qualified to teach than they are. None of them are my husband that I should submit to them either! Nor are we in church. Otherwise you would have to shut up also!

The office of Elders, pastors and bishops

There is a site that makes the claim that all elders in a church as per Scripture should be able to teach. That would include women by default, and nobody can honestly claim that women were not elders in the first century church.