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pastac
Guest
Oh yes he did give them his authority on that day, I still wonder why man keeps trying to take back because they don't get it yet how sad!
The church is the bride. Maybe this is wisdom. To be in subjection to Jesus, who is the head.
Genesis 2:18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
Colossians 3:18-19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
Colossians 3:18-19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them.
Probably should mention, before someone else does, that the "church" did not exist when Proverbs was written, nor was Jesus known (at least not by more than a few - if they were aware of what they were writing). So it would probably be more accurate to say that wisdom would be God's children that hear and follow His commandments.
Great Scriptures, none of which though prevent God from calling a woman into the Ministry......His Service.
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Osiyo
Guest
It is strange to hear the ("physical part "Man or woman") speak up here in this Thread:
I Timothy 2: 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.…
1 Timothy : 09 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. and now his reasoning: 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
So it is so that woman don't head off into leading into sin because a woman is more subject able to satanic attacks? Be blessed, we are not against women, only of them "preaching to men in a house of God, but brother Osiyo, Debora was a High-Priest, but in the context only because there where no qualified men to lead, so God allowed her for that time. Heads up for that was the rest of the story.
I Timothy 2: 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.…
1 Timothy : 09 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. and now his reasoning: 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
So it is so that woman don't head off into leading into sin because a woman is more subject able to satanic attacks? Be blessed, we are not against women, only of them "preaching to men in a house of God, but brother Osiyo, Debora was a High-Priest, but in the context only because there where no qualified men to lead, so God allowed her for that time. Heads up for that was the rest of the story.
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pastac
Guest
Woa wait jus a darn minute. Mary was a woman. Jesus came through her which means a woman carried the word in her. That is authority one authority 2 nether Greek nor Jew male nor female is what I'm taught all come the same way men or women. Authority 3 when Jesus arose after being crucified he told the women on the road go tell my disciples I live therefore again releasing his authority. I would much more rather be obedient to Jesus than follow the foolishness of nan. Jesus never took back his authority form women he gave them the same rights to speak for him as men have. Now if Jesus was carried in a woman then a woman can carry the word! Just thought
OK, one more time for those who were not here for the lessons on the exegesis of the Greek. And I am wondering who pulled up this old post, when we have had so many on this topic lately, and no one seems to care about the Greek, who believe on the KJV is inspired. And so they will not learn, or be taught, because it is a woman who is neither stubborn nor ignorant, and happens to know the Bible in the original language.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12
The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.
Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.
The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.
Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)
Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.
So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!
So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia.
And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word autos which is a close to HE as you can get in Greek, does not appear at all in verses 1-7. . In addition, it talks about "deacons" in verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. My ESV translates it as thus:
"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11
But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no THEIR in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!
The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.
Really, what it boils down to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ!
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12
The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.
Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.
The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.
Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)
Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.
So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!
So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia.
And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word autos which is a close to HE as you can get in Greek, does not appear at all in verses 1-7. . In addition, it talks about "deacons" in verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. My ESV translates it as thus:
"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11
But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no THEIR in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!
The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.
Really, what it boils down to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ!
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
I just dont see CC chat or forum as 'Church', more as fellowship...so, ehhh.
But if we were in a Service, then definitely I'd be concerned.
Oooops, I see, you went there to 'learn something', well there's your problem
Can you please define the meaning of 'church', according to the Holy Bible, so i can refer them again for justification.
Thank you.
Yup.................and there is the Prophetess Debora and the woman at the well.........sigh............guess we just ignore these.......along with Priscilla...........who surely taught the Gospel to men............
Here is some food for thought. And this should settle it once and for all....
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
Can God EVER be the image and glory of the man? NOPE!
Can the man EVER be the glory if the woman? NOPE!
The roles will never, can never and may not ever change. God does not change and neither does His will.
Women may teach yes!!! What and who may they teach.... Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
And how does a GODLY woman profess her godliness.... 1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. ... NOT GOOD WORDS...
Pricilla NEVER taught and preached NEVER. She professed her godliness with GOOD WORKS and subjecting to her husband as God ALWAYS have His women do.... 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. .... Why is teahcing not mentioned here? For the obvious reason they may not teach as teaching is done by MEN!
There is NO office in the church for a woman, not even as a DEACON IN CHURCH... but as a servant (deacon) outside church YES!
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
Can God EVER be the image and glory of the man? NOPE!
Can the man EVER be the glory if the woman? NOPE!
The roles will never, can never and may not ever change. God does not change and neither does His will.
Women may teach yes!!! What and who may they teach.... Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
And how does a GODLY woman profess her godliness.... 1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. ... NOT GOOD WORDS...
Pricilla NEVER taught and preached NEVER. She professed her godliness with GOOD WORKS and subjecting to her husband as God ALWAYS have His women do.... 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. .... Why is teahcing not mentioned here? For the obvious reason they may not teach as teaching is done by MEN!
There is NO office in the church for a woman, not even as a DEACON IN CHURCH... but as a servant (deacon) outside church YES!
Does 1 Corinthians chapter 11, justify women are allowed to teach or pray and prophesy?
Or this is your selfish feelings and desires, to argue and fight and even murder the Living Truth, in order to justify, quoting Scripture out of context, from the established sound doctrine of the New Covenant.
Even you quote about women deacons and men together and they have no given authority to speak but to be serious and do their duty quietly, in the church, still they are both no higher than the Bishop and Leaders, who are men as written.
So do not put on a false show. Only the ignorant or humble are on your side because of love but we have a duty to do,
in order to straighten what is crooked in Christian men and women, for the Kingdom of GOD.
We are expecting to be treated badly for righteousness sake, for we witness CHRIST who said;
"Your worst enemy will be in your own household."
This people do not want CHRIST's believers to be ruled and justify and be justified, men and women alike, according to the written sound doctrine of the New Covenant, taught to us by the HOLY SPIRIT.
Women are called to posses a gentle and a quiet spirit, like their mother Sarah.
You women have many areas vacant to serve in gentle and quietness, even to many Christian women today, who are astray. But sadly you have your selfish feelings and desires of carnality itching in you, to respond and react blindly and ignorantly. This proves you are still a Gentile women in this forum but in your church, you show off humble and humility.
This is only to women who have acted and responded like a goat and not at all to the gentle and quiet blessed women sheep, even those who are in authority in this CHRIST's and the HOLY SPIRIT's given Forum.
Repent in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST! to those who cause confusion and deception to others who are young and old, lambs and sheep who are witnessing knowledge faith, being threshed in this Bible Discussion Forum, of the Kingdom of GOD.
If CHRIST did not come yet, will this Forum ever exist?
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pastac
Guest
Now I support a lot of what you say but hold on just a minute. Go back read my statement then tell me what you are saying. Are you saying that Jesus took back his authority from women to go tell that he lives. He didn't say go tell and stop tell no more did he? No office in the church for women. Come on now women are just as much of the church as men.
Galatians 3:28 King James VersionThere is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Don't take scripture out of context it demeans the role of women in the church.
In Judges 4 and 5, Deborah is described as both a Judge of Israel and as the leader of the army.
In 2 Kings 22:14-19 and 2 Chron 34:23-7, the prophetess Huldah was asked to validate the book found in the Temple -- presumably the book of Deuteronomy. She spoke "....as the voice of God; 'Thus says the LORD' .
I wont go into such a long drawn out debate read my account of Jesus when he arose from the grave and what he said then lets talk.Do'nt put women in a box and make them of no effect that is not scriptural.
Fredjames it would be real hard to prophecy and not say a word.... So obviously the prohecy of women is NOT IN THE gatherings. 1 Cor 14... Let your women be silent in church... Like so many things there seems to be contradiction in the Bible. But there is not. women may teach young women how to submit to husbands and they will prohecy, but the prohecies in 1 Cor 14 in the COME TOGETHER (churches) women should not speak... As easy as that.
Pastac. No Mary did carry Jesus, and true she did bare the Son of God but HE only became the WORD of God LIVING when he was OUT of Mary. I cought my own son and let me assure you there is NO LIFE , and NO SPIRIT in that little thing when it comes out of the mother.... NO LIFE. It is blue and black and DEAD! It is still like a parasite that lives off the plant it is joned too.
But then the MIRICLE of LIFE (Spirit) happens... The moment a spirit gives life to that soul in the blood. When the parasite (unborn baby) becoms a LIVING soul. This is the BORN of GOD for Jesus. That as the moment Jesus became the LIVING WORD.
Oh Mary carried the Word right, but He became the LIVING Word the moment he became ALIVE with the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that made him a living WORD and SOUL. Jesus was also living off Mary until the Holy Spirit gave Him life. The spirit that gave me life was NOT the Holy Spirit. That is the difference, and also I was Concieved by my father's seed and Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit.
But LIFE was given when He took His first breath and the same with my son. The moment the spirit enters, that blue dead expression turns a lovely pink and life comes into the whole body. The eyes change, the color change and the whole little body comes alive.
Not even all men has office in the church. Not ven all men are allowed to speak in church. And even the prophets should keep silent when a revelation is given. You see this is what I believe... God is in control of every word spoken in the Truth Church. And in these churches (1 Cor 14) it will ahppen EXACTLY like Paul discribe to the BRETHREN.... From verse 26 to 40.
If I see that in a church I will know I have ARRIVED in the Body of Christ. Hey God says let the prophets speak two or three maximum, And the tongues two or three and the revelations to them as well... That makes it like 10 people who will speak? What if there is 100 people in the church... 90 would be silent. Why do ALL people have to talk, ALL would sing but not all will talk. I trust God and I know that is how He work His church.
It is a shame for a woman to speak in the church, a shame. And it will ALWAYS be. And with this I said and shown enough...
Look how the Bible teach... 1 Cor 14 : 20... Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
Wow, Jesus sent Mary to speak to the men in Jerusalem.... in the upper room... Not in the church! I know we ae the church but in the gathering of worship like in 1 Cor 14 is the church as a BODY OF SAINTS. Jesus will NEVER have a woman speak in the gathering, it is a shame then.... Jesus does not do SHAME!
Pastac. No Mary did carry Jesus, and true she did bare the Son of God but HE only became the WORD of God LIVING when he was OUT of Mary. I cought my own son and let me assure you there is NO LIFE , and NO SPIRIT in that little thing when it comes out of the mother.... NO LIFE. It is blue and black and DEAD! It is still like a parasite that lives off the plant it is joned too.
But then the MIRICLE of LIFE (Spirit) happens... The moment a spirit gives life to that soul in the blood. When the parasite (unborn baby) becoms a LIVING soul. This is the BORN of GOD for Jesus. That as the moment Jesus became the LIVING WORD.
Oh Mary carried the Word right, but He became the LIVING Word the moment he became ALIVE with the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that made him a living WORD and SOUL. Jesus was also living off Mary until the Holy Spirit gave Him life. The spirit that gave me life was NOT the Holy Spirit. That is the difference, and also I was Concieved by my father's seed and Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit.
But LIFE was given when He took His first breath and the same with my son. The moment the spirit enters, that blue dead expression turns a lovely pink and life comes into the whole body. The eyes change, the color change and the whole little body comes alive.
Not even all men has office in the church. Not ven all men are allowed to speak in church. And even the prophets should keep silent when a revelation is given. You see this is what I believe... God is in control of every word spoken in the Truth Church. And in these churches (1 Cor 14) it will ahppen EXACTLY like Paul discribe to the BRETHREN.... From verse 26 to 40.
If I see that in a church I will know I have ARRIVED in the Body of Christ. Hey God says let the prophets speak two or three maximum, And the tongues two or three and the revelations to them as well... That makes it like 10 people who will speak? What if there is 100 people in the church... 90 would be silent. Why do ALL people have to talk, ALL would sing but not all will talk. I trust God and I know that is how He work His church.
It is a shame for a woman to speak in the church, a shame. And it will ALWAYS be. And with this I said and shown enough...
Look how the Bible teach... 1 Cor 14 : 20... Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
Wow, Jesus sent Mary to speak to the men in Jerusalem.... in the upper room... Not in the church! I know we ae the church but in the gathering of worship like in 1 Cor 14 is the church as a BODY OF SAINTS. Jesus will NEVER have a woman speak in the gathering, it is a shame then.... Jesus does not do SHAME!
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pastac
Guest
Cobus all I can say is wow! I wont even address how many levels this is wrong on, I'll just let God give you a better understanding. I see this totally different and in a whole different context. And just let me add you are way off base to think women carry around dead children in their womb. They are alive.
If I take your parasite analogy then Jesus was still a part of Mary living off her sharing her breath, sharing her food or am I missing something. If he was alive in her and a part of her then you tell me!
And as far as only coming alive when he took his first breath come on Cobus you know better than that. You don't want women speaking because Paul said so? Jesus said different! Did Jesus tell the women to go tell his disciples he lived?
When did he revoke that authority. Don't word play just answer the question. Was Jesus the teacher of Paul or Paul the teacher of Jesus. I think I'll take Jesus!
Simple, in the Holy Scripture what is it written about the meaning of 'church'?
'A building' that governs a gathering or 'A gathering' of believers (who are as GOD's Word confessed, HIS building and plantation, where chosen by CHRIST, Apostle Paul and Apollos labored in the beginning) who faithfully gather either in hired buildings, houses or even under a tree or in a field or even in prisons.
As it is written;
"I did not come to judge but even if I did judge, I judge with just and fair."
"Why should we judge outsiders, when we should judge our own members."
"A gathering' (church) of believers are gathered here and this is GOD's threshing place, where HIS laborers are laboring for HIS building and plantation (lambs and sheep) and the materials used are the Word of GOD, as it is written, inspired in the Holy Bible.
Go and read the Holy Scripture that as quote;
"All Scripture are breathed out by GOD and they are useful for 'Teaching', 'Rebuking Error', 'Correcting Faults' and 'Training One in Righteousness', so that a man (sorry, in humble and humility to the 'abiding' women in CHRIST's words and love and only to justify to the ignorant ones in neglected and spiritual poverty and responding in love anointing confession, that women are not included for this duty) of GOD will be fully equipped and fully trained to do all kind of
Good Deeds."
GOD's kindness is upon you and your daughters because;
"HIS kindness leads us to repentance."
May the Good GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, forgive you, being the witness head of HIS family in Scripture order and not of disorder, who are created and given to you to be guided not of yours, mine nor other's wise standards but of GOD's only, apart from others and may HE bless you and not chastise you.
