Working out our Salvation

[Elin]

"children born not of blood"
"children born not of the will of the flesh"
"But children born of God" (Jn 1:13).

It was God's will they be born again "that was put into action."

Jn 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

The word "power" is the Greek exousia - "privilege, lawful right."

It is not the natural children who are God's children (Jn 1:13), but
it is the children of the promise who receive the lawful right to be Abraham's children.

Like the children of the promise, it is only those who believe that have the lawful right to be the sons of God.

 

[SeaBass]

Read it again, that's not what it says.


Agreed. . .

Agreed. . .one must have faith to have access to the grace of forgiveness of sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77).

If one does not have faith, then he has no access to grace/salvation. Yet you have one saved/born again BEFORE he has faith, BEFORE he has access to grace.

 

[SeaBass]

You haven't dealt with Lk 11:50.

Ro 5:12-21 presents the same principle as Lk 11:50, accountability for another's sin.
God held Jesus accountable for my sin.

Lk 11:50 does not say one man will be held accountable for another man's sins. One generation can suffer the consequences of past generations but no sin is passed/inherited from one generation to the next.

 

[SeaBass]

It would be nice if you would give your interpretation of Dan 4:35. I do believe that God has given man a free will to chose things he does here in this world, but God does not give a man a free will when it comes to his eternal salvation because if God did, then the carnal man would never make a choice to do anything pertaining to the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14.

Dan 4:35 says God does according to His will and none can stay His hand. God controls events but He does not violate man's freewill in the process.

Prov 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

Man has the freewill in devising his own plans, yet God controls how those plans work out.


Carnal men can understand God's words but choose of their own freewill not to believe it. Yet other men,as those in Acts 2, heard God's word preached to them by Peter and choose of their freewill to believe God's word that Peter preached.

 

[SeaBass]

You could use the same reasoning if God wants all mankind to be saved eternally and he doesn't accomplish his will, then it is God's fault, right?

God never decreed that all men be saved, yet God desires, wishes all men obey Him and be saved.

There is God's decretive will that when He decrees things those things will for certain happen.

There is also God's preceptive will that expresses God's desire, wish that men will repent. God does not force men to repent but wishes all men use their freewill to come to repentance. Mt 23:37, God does not always get what His preceptive will wished for.

Also;
Mt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

If these Jews were predetermined to be lost, then why would Jesus desire they would come under His protective "wing" and be saved?

If these Jews were predetermined to be saved, then how could they refuse the salvation Christ wanted for them?

 

[Elin]

You have a part in your faith only when you have a part in your own rebirth of your spirit by the Holy Spirit, which produces the gift of saving faith (Php 1:29: Ac 18:27; 2Pe 1:1).

You have the impossibility of one being saved BEFORE he even has faith.

Read it again, that's not what it says.

One must have faith to have access to grace.

One must have faith to receive the grace of forgiveness of sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77).

One does not have to have faith to receive the grace which is the gift of faith
(Php 1:29; 2P3 1;1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).

If one does not have faith, then he has no access to grace/salvation.

Agreed.

 

[SeaBass]

The word "power" is the Greek exousia - "privilege, lawful right."

It is not the natural children who are God's children (Jn 1:13), but
it is the children of the promise who receive the lawful right to be Abraham's children.

Like the children of the promise, it is only those who believe that have the lawful right to be the sons of God.

Jn 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

Those that 'received him" and those "that believe on His name" are the same people. Their receiving/believing DID NOT make them sons of God. "Become" is middle deponent, an action they choose to do themselves. So those of their own freewill that chose to receive/believe Christ were given the right/power to make themselves become the children of God, and they make themselves become the children of God by obeying the gospel in submitting to water baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

One must have faith to receive the grace of forgiveness of sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77).

One does not have to have faith to receive the grace which is the gift of faith
(Php 1:29; 2P3 1;1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).


Agreed.

Rom 5:2 one must have faith to access grace.

"Grace" in Rom 5:2 refers to salvation, meaning no faith = no grace/salvation.

You are trying to get one in God's grace (salvaton) while he remains faithless...which is not possible.

 

[Elin]

One must have faith to receive the grace of forgiveness of sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77).

One does not have to have faith to receive other grace, such as the gift of faith
(Php 1:29; 2P3 1;1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).

Rom 5:2 one must have faith to access grace.

"Grace" in Rom 5:2 refers to salvation, meaning no faith = no grace/salvation.

Agreed. . .no faith means no grace of salvation.

However, no faith does not mean no other grace, such as the gift of faith.

 

[Elin]

"children born not of blood"
"children born not of the will of flesh (man, by human decision)
"But children born of God" (Jn 1:13)

It was God's will they be born again "that was put into action." (Jn 1:12)

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

The word "power" is the Greek exousia - "privilege, lawful right."

It is not the natural children who are God's children (Jn 1:13), but
it is the children of the promise who receive the lawful right to be Abraham's children.

Like the children of the promise, it is only those who believe that have the lawful right to be the sons of God.

Jn 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

Those that 'received him" and those "that believe on His name" are the same people. Their receiving/believing DID NOT make them sons of God.
"Become" is middle deponent, an action they choose to do themselves

Nope. . .they were children of wrath, now they are made children of God by receiving Jesus Christ
who gives this power to those who believe on his name, because by faith they are in Christ
and, therefore, are related to the Father as Jesus is, his Son.

They were predestined to be adopted (Eph 1:5).

 

[Elin]

In Lk 11:50, Jesus held the present generation responsible (ekzeteo--"blood

required," Lev 17:4, 20:9,11-13,16,27) for the blood of all the prophets that had

been shed since the beginning of the world.

Lk 11:50 does not say one man will be held accountable for another man's sins. One generation can suffer the consequences of past generations but no sin is passed/inherited from one generation to the next.

You have not dealt with Lk 11:50.

And Ro 5:12-21 presents the same principle as Lk 11:50, accountability for another's sin.
God held Jesus accountable for my sin.

 

[forsha]

Dan 4:35 says God does according to His will and none can stay His hand. God controls events but He does not violate man's freewill in the process.

Prov 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

Man has the freewill in devising his own plans, yet God controls how those plans work out.


Carnal men can understand God's words but choose of their own freewill not to believe it. Yet other men,as those in Acts 2, heard God's word preached to them by Peter and choose of their freewill to believe God's word that Peter preached.

Choose you this day whom you shall serve, yourself, or God, You insist on giving yourself credit for your eternal salvation, giving yourself praise and not God.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Choose you this day whom you shall serve, yourself, or God, You insist on giving yourself credit for your eternal salvation, giving yourself praise and not God.

You make no sense, if man has no credit for his own destiny then he has no free will, as you said (well as Joshua said) "Choose you this day whom you shall serve"

Joshua 24:15 (KJV)
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


free will and choose are synonymous

 

[tribesman]

You make no sense, if man has no credit for his own destiny then he has no free will, as you said (well as Joshua said) "Choose you this day whom you shall serve"

Joshua 24:15 (KJV)
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


free will and choose are synonymous

The address of this scripture was to the covenant people of God, whom already knew God's will and had received the signs and seals of the covenant. It is not addressed to the unbelieving pagan world "being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Phil.2:12).

 

[forsha]

You make no sense, if man has no credit for his own destiny then he has no free will, as you said (well as Joshua said) "Choose you this day whom you shall serve"

Joshua 24:15 (KJV)
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


free will and choose are synonymous

God gave man a free will to choose how he will live his life here on earth, but God did not give him free will to choose or not to choose his eternal destination, if that were so our eternal salvation would not be by the grace of God, but by the works of man. Man taking praise and honor upon himself instead of giving praise and honor to God.

 

[Elin]

In Lk 11:50, Jesus held the present generation responsible (ekzeteo--"blood

required," Lev 17:4, 20:9,11-13,16,27) for the blood of all the prophets that had

been shed since the beginning of the world.

Lk 11:50 does not say one man will be held accountable for another man's sins. One generation can suffer the consequences of past generations but no sin is passed/inherited from one generation to the next.

Would the word "guilty" work better for you?

In Ro 5:12-21, God holds all men guilty of Adam's sin, as Jesus holds those in Lk 11:50 guilty
of the sin of all the murders of prophets since the beginning of time, and requires their blood (ekzeteo)
as punishment.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Would the word "guilty" work better for you?

In Ro 5:12-21, God holds all men guilty of Adam's sin, as Jesus holds those in Lk 11:50 guilty
of the sin of all the murders of prophets since the beginning of time, and requires their blood (ekzeteo)
as punishment.

Yes Luke 11:50 holds those who Jesus was talking to accountable/guilty for the murdering of the prophets because and here is the key word, they approved of what they did.

We can also see Apostle Paul telling the Apostle Timothy the same thing in 1 Timothy 5:22, as he tells Timothy that who ever he ordains if they commit sin then he Timothy is just as accountable/guilty of that sin/s. These were put in place to show that we even if we support another one's sins, make ourselves guilty of that sin as well.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

which salvation is the verse talking about??
why does Paul specifically say with Fear and trembling??
How do we implement that scripture in our daily lives??
And to whom does that scripture apply?

in the greek, your salvation is written as a way in which you own it. (your already saved)

working out is working out the power you have been given based on the fact your saved.

Fear and trembling, Paul feared all the time he would do something which would cause his light to stop shining (his message null and void) he would be an unqualified teacher (no one would listen to him)

What it does not mean? Paul never feared losing salvation, he said over and over, to be absent from this body is to be present with God, and that was his desire.. and hope.

 

[Elin]

Yes Luke 11:50 holds those who Jesus was talking to accountable/guilty for the murdering of the prophets because and here is the key word, they approved of what they did.

We can also see Apostle Paul telling the Apostle Timothy the same thing in 1 Timothy 5:22, as he tells Timothy that who ever he ordains
if they commit sin then he Timothy is just as accountable/guilty of that sin/s. These were put in place to show that
we even, if we support another one's sins, make ourselves guilty of that sin as well.

Very good.

And in our sinning do we not also show our approval of Adam's sin, and are thereby also guilty of his sin (Ro 5:12-21), which is why we die?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Very good.

And in our sinning do we not also show our approval of Adam's sin, and are thereby also guilty of his sin (R 5:12-21)?

Yes you can put it that way, as our sins is what causes us to be enmity to God.
However we have a just Lord in Jesus that when we repent and confess of those sins, He will give us remission of them and cleanse us of all our unrighteousness. So that when we stand before Him at the mercy seat we will be found perfect before God.