Works and Salvation

[eternally-gratefull]

--God does not have to do the work of believing. Belief is the work of God that God has given man to do...

"This is the work of God, that YOU believe....."

--belief is commanded, the command implies it's your responsibility to believe and fulfill the command, not God's.

still do not get it do you?

It (what) is the work of God?

That you believe in the one he sent.

why? God did ALL the work. Your trusting in HIS work, not your own. It is your faith, but it is IN GODS WORK.

so when are you going to stop trusting seabass, and start trusting God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What if one's faith never produced works, will his faith alone save him?

It's the right question, essentially the same question James asked.

You imply if one has no works then he never really had faith and once again making works essential to having faith/salvation.

lol.. Wrong.

Works prove faith (james context, test your faith)

it does not save you. God does not need proof. YOU DO!

James did not contradict paul in romans 4. He agreed with him.

Paul, Saved by faith, not works, If your saved, you will work.

James Saved by faith, But real faith will produce works.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Your right, It could not be realised.

But abraham was still saved by faith, not works, as was anyone else.

Why do you not see the law condemns you for one sin, After that, it does not matter how many sins you commit, your guilty of the law, and justly condemned.

The only thing whihc can redeem sin is the shedding of blood (without the shedding, there can be NO FORGIVENESS)

So no one in the oT was saved by law, Blood had to be shed, and guess what, The blood of bulls ad goats can NEVER take away sin.

You are right by this that Jesus had to become our sacrifice so that we can have forgiveness of our sins.
We though still play a part in that. If you do not repent of those sins then that forgiveness is not given to you.

Our Lord Jesus makes it clear that if you do not repent of your sins you will parish, then He even goes further and tells us what believers in Him will look like and the things they will do. The biggest is saying you will keep His commandments, and do all that He said. Baptism, repentance, confession, doing for others in need, and even loving your enemies are some of those things He commanded and said a true believer in Him will do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are right by this that Jesus had to become our sacrifice so that we can have forgiveness of our sins.
We though still play a part in that. If you do not repent of those sins then that forgiveness is not given to you.

Our Lord Jesus makes it clear that if you do not repent of your sins you will parish, then He even goes further and tells us what believers in Him will look like and the things they will do. The biggest is saying you will keep His commandments, and do all that He said. Baptism, repentance, confession, doing for others in need, and even loving your enemies are some of those things He commanded and said a true believer in Him will do.

true,

However, those who have TRUE faith, and are given the spirit as a result. WILL do those things, it is not a question of if.

that is where legalism gets is wrong, they still place conditions, and claim self effort, Where scripture teaches God did all the work. And we are saved by HIS WORK, and his work will empower us to do OUR WORK.

 

[SeaBass]

lol.. Wrong.

Works prove faith (james context, test your faith)

it does not save you. God does not need proof. YOU DO!

James did not contradict paul in romans 4. He agreed with him.

Paul, Saved by faith, not works, If your saved, you will work.

James Saved by faith, But real faith will produce works.

So it's impossible to have a faith that saves without works thereby making salvation impossible without works.

If one can be saved without works then why can't one be saved without faith also? If one does not have to have the works to prove he has faith in order to be saved, then why would he need faith or works?

 

[SeaBass]

still do not get it do you?

It (what) is the work of God?

That you believe in the one he sent.

why? God did ALL the work. Your trusting in HIS work, not your own. It is your faith, but it is IN GODS WORK.

so when are you going to stop trusting seabass, and start trusting God?

God is the genesis of the work of believing and He has given this work to man to do. So man does the work of God.

Just like the employer is the genesis of the work he gives the employee to do. So the employee does the work of the employer. If the employer does all the work himself then he does not need the employee for anything.

Jn 6:28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

They did not ask what work God would do for them but what work are WE to do. And Jesus did not answer them like a Baptist preacher would in telling them to do no works else will be trying to earn their salvation.

Jn 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Jesus said YOU do the work of believing and not you do nothing while God does the work of believing for you.


Again in verse 27 Jesus said to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life and once and for all put to rest that works are necessary to gain everlasting life. Yet men and their man-made theologies will continue to deny Jesus' words.

 

[SeaBass]

This is one point I would side with you on definitely.
There is no such thing as a do nothing philosophy for a saved Christian.

Lord Jesus makes it clear over and over again that if you are His sheep ( saved ) then there is multiple things that follow the believer. Living a full life in love ( no hatred ), repentance of sin, baptism, confession, doing for others in need, and not hiding their belief in Him. If these things do not follow in your faith in Him, then you still have areas to work on.
Salvation is not an immediate given as some falsely teach.
Even Jesus our Lord and Savior says that the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Hi,

Eph 2:10 makes it impossible for one to be a Christian and not do any works.

As you say, there is no such thing as a do nothing philosophy for a saved Christian, likewise there is no such thing as a do nothing philosophy in BECOMING a Christian. The obedient works one does in BECOMING a Christian do not earn salvation no more than the works one does AFTER he is a Christian.


---------------------

If we allowed for a moment that one can BECOME a Christian by faith only/no works but even after BECOMING a Christian he must do good works Eph 2:10 or else he never was truly converted or becomes an apostate. So it is impossible for one to be saved without ever doing some kind of work either in BECOMING a Christians or AFTER one is already a Christian.

 

[SeaBass]

Your right, It could not be realised.

But abraham was still saved by faith, not works, as was anyone else.

Why do you not see the law condemns you for one sin, After that, it does not matter how many sins you commit, your guilty of the law, and justly condemned.

The only thing whihc can redeem sin is the shedding of blood (without the shedding, there can be NO FORGIVENESS)

So no one in the oT was saved by law, Blood had to be shed, and guess what, The blood of bulls ad goats can NEVER take away sin.

Heb 9:16 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator."
Heb 9:17 "For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

Christ was still alive when He promised the thief paradise so it is impossible that thief is an example of NT salvation. Christ must first die before His New Testament could come into force.

Abarham had an obedient faith not a dead, disobedient faith only, Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."
Gen 18:17 the very reason God chose Abraham was because God foreknew that Abraham would obey..."For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

 

[newbirth]

The truth is very simple and all the debate is simply a result of people who will not accept the plain meaning of the text.

When the Bible speaks of "not of works" it is simply a reference that "obedience to rules does not effect inward change." When the Bible teaches "saved by grace THROUGH faith" it is speaking of the actual dynamic of transformation which is simply "a heart yielded to God."

The meaning of salvation is in the context of being "saved from sin." The means by which we are "saved from sin" is through a total heart transformation or in other words being "born again to the Spirit." Thus when a repentant sinner comes clean with God and submits themselves to His lead then the power of God will manifest through that person and the love of God will be wrought in their heart.

Salvation is a present active manifest state of abiding in the will of God wholeheartedly. Such a state is only wrought through godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation, a repentance which necessitates a change in action because the iniquity (ie. selfish motive to sin) is purged from the heart permanently. The wild horse is broken and a submissive spirit of born THEN God empowers the individual to be an overcomer because they have RECEIVED the implanted word which can save the soul.



There are many whom are deceived and associate "works" with "doing." They are wrong. The "works" that have no bearing on salvation are works done apart from the grace (or leading) of God. Thus one cannot save themselves via a performance that is not in cooperation with God. Yet one can save themselves by abiding/cooperating with God and thus allowing God to work in them whereby true transformation takes place. This is why Jesus taught we must abide in Him and it is why Paul taught that the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ is what sets us free.

Many wolves in the world treat salvation as some kind of abstract package which is to be "trusted in" whilst they are still manifestly wicked. These people are still "workers of iniquity" because the selfish motive of sin was never purged from the heart in a genuine repentance experience and therefore they easily buy into a false salvation message which disconnects salvation from a manifest condition of a heart, a condition whereby the heart is pure.

The bottom line is that heart purity it utterly rejected by these people and heart purity is a subject they simply cannot discuss because to do so utterly undermines their belief system.

I hope this helps.

Thanks.

faith without works is dead.....the scripture makes no apology for this....we are saved by grace.....

Ephesians 2:4-9King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

do you think the writer made a mistake when he made the first statement about saved by grace without mentioning faith?
it is to show two different things....grace and faith...vs 4&5...God's grace....vs 6,7&8...through faith...
vs ..9...what it is not....and this points directly to the law....because the law is the only thing through which one could have boasted for salvation...so faith must be accompanied by works for it to be effective...even if it is a prayer of faith...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So it's impossible to have a faith that saves without works thereby making salvation impossible without works.

If one can be saved without works then why can't one be saved without faith also? If one does not have to have the works to prove he has faith in order to be saved, then why would he need faith or works?

dude, this is the last comment I will make to you. It is obvious you are so blinded by your pride you can not even see the things you write and how foolish they sound (forgive me but I do not know how else to put it)

You said this..

If one does not have to have the works to prove he has faith in order to be saved



So God needs proof if your faith is real or not?

wow, I am amazed that you think God is not all knowing and knows our hearts. If you do not know this, You have no need to teach others for you need taught yourself. Who God is. What God is, And what he did.

Study this, then come back, and maybe we can have a conversation.

 

[newbirth]

lol.. Wrong.

Works prove faith (james context, test your faith)

it does not save you. God does not need proof. YOU DO!

James did not contradict paul in romans 4. He agreed with him.

Paul, Saved by faith, not works, If your saved, you will work.

James Saved by faith, But real faith will produce works.

Paul saved by faith, not works of the law...
James saved by faith with works....because faith without works is dead...there is nothing about producing works ...you make that up...it is either faith with works or faith without works...

 

[Zmouth]

If man is to live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord.
And the Lord said "Why call ye Me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say?" and "he that doeth the will of the Father" shall inherit the kingdom"

Then how can one be saved when he continues to NOT DO what Christ said?

Did you hear that from the mouth of God or did you read it out of a book? John 10:27

While many interpret that was meant for those who lived back then, see Heb 3:7

The Salvation is a gift of God, not of our doing in any shape, form or fashion. However, holding true to the promise of the Word and the Spirit, one is growing in the principles of God that will preserve in the Kingdom.

Matt 19:20-21
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

He never told the rich young man that he was not going to heaven, he merely told him that if he would do that which he told him he shall have treasure in heaven.

For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. Matt 26:11

Matt 6:19-21
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

 

[Butch5]

I know this has been a topic before but I want to bring it up again. Many times when works are mentioned people say that is works based and you cannot gain salvation by works. Well I think most people know that works does not save anyone and Jesus said in order to have salvation you must be born again, Paul says that we are save by grace through faith least any man boast. Now james says works makes faith perfect. Therefore you cannot have faith to be saved if there are no works that accomendate your faith.
James 2:14-26
John 3:7
Ephesians 2:8-9

Agreed, what many don't realize is that they have Paul's teaching on works out of context. He was addressing a particular problem in his day, he wasn't making a universal statement.

 

[newbirth]

Did you hear that from the mouth of God or did you read it out of a book? John 10:27

While many interpret that was meant for those who lived back then, see Heb 3:7

The Salvation is a gift of God, not of our doing in any shape, form or fashion. However, holding true to the promise of the Word and the Spirit, one is growing in the principles of God that will preserve in the Kingdom.

Matt 19:20-21
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

He never told the rich young man that he was not going to heaven, he merely told him that if he would do that which he told him he shall have treasure in heaven.

For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. Matt 26:11

Matt 6:19-21
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus did not tell him he was not going to heaven...but he did not tell him he was going to heaven either

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul saved by faith, not works of the law...
James saved by faith with works....because faith without works is dead...there is nothing about producing works ...you make that up...it is either faith with works or faith without works...

Wrong.

Paul Saved by faith not works. (not of the law, any work, eph 2, titus 3:5 and many other places) Created for works.

James faith, which does not have the works we were created to do, is dead (non existant)

James and paul did not contradict each other, their is not two gospel

 

[mailmandan]

Wrong.

Paul Saved by faith not works. (not of the law, any work, eph 2, titus 3:5 and many other places) Created for works.

James faith, which does not have the works we were created to do, is dead (non existant)

James and paul did not contradict each other, their is not two gospel

Paul - man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

James - genuine faith is evidenced by good works (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works. This is not hard to understand, it's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. It's a tragedy that human pride will not allow these many people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

 

[Kerry]

Okay Paul is explaining salvation by faith, James is explaining that if you have faith in the cross it will be shown by works, not your works, but the Holy Spirit working through you so it's hand in hand and no contradiction. go get a double cheeseburger and think about it.

 

[newbirth]

still do not get it do you?

It (what) is the work of God?

That you believe in the one he sent.

why? God did ALL the work. Your trusting in HIS work, not your own. It is your faith, but it is IN GODS WORK.

so when are you going to stop trusting seabass, and start trusting God?

devils believes the one he sent....and tremble
where is the work that accompany your faith...there is none ...so your faith is without works...dead...so you teach faith without works....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

devils believes the one he sent....and tremble
where is the work that accompany your faith...there is none ...so your faith is without works...dead...so you teach faith without works....

yep they do. but they do not have faith in God. many believe, but few have faith.

where is my works? I would show you, but I do not want to brag, God gets all the credit.

so when are you going to stop doing works to save yourself. and allow God to save you, then do what he says out of trust and appreciation for what he gave you (the gift of eternal life)

My faith is not dead. it is living, and grows every day.

 

[mailmandan]

yep they do. but they do not have faith in God. many believe, but few have faith.

In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that even the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" and tremble, but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, not in Christ, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Many people today have the same kind of belief that the demons have, yet their "trust and reliance" is in "works" for salvation rather than in Christ alone.