JHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA I laughed out loud when I seen this HAHAHHAHAHHHA if it wasn't so tragic I suppose....!
Works and Salvation
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JHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA I laughed out loud when I seen this HAHAHHAHAHHHA if it wasn't so tragic I suppose....!
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
well..
for by grace we HAVE BEEN saved by grace through faith. NOT OF WORKS. lest anyone should boast.
Faith minus works equals faith alone..lol!
and dead......
James 2:17-20King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
- Found only in the Gospel of John, the Greek word translated “it isfinished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever.
show me your faith without works....that is all I ask....and that still does not say we are "saved by faith...."
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
so then why do we pay to keep paying a debt which is already paid in full?
ps, I agree with you, that is what it means.
did you know in Jesus day, A criminal who was convicted of a crime, who had paid his debt to society carried a card which had the word tetelestai and the crime of which he was convicted. Thus he could never be judged, or convicted of this crime again, it was as if he never did the crime to begin with?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Nope. we do not contradict paul and say it is dead. We have to make them agree.
Paul says those saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS. will work (eph 2: 10)
James said, if we do not have the works paul said we will have in vs 10, we do not have the faith required in vs 8-9. Our faith was dead.
But is is still faith alone, not works. Paul said it not me.
faith minus works equals faith alone, no matter how you try to spin it.
what happens to the people saved by faith not works (faith alone) ?
eph 2: 10, For we (those abed by faith alone) are his workmanship (god is doing a work in us) created (new creature) for GOOD WORKS.
that is because Paul was speaking about works of the law.......and James works of faith...you don't have to make anything work...just read scripture how it is supposed to be read....
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
No.
He was talking about works which one could boast of. At no point did he say works of the law. Your adding to the word of God. Shame Shame
ps. Water baptism was a work of the law.. next!
works of the law was the only thing one could have boasted of before the coming of Christ...The Jews actually boasted about it, so it has to be what Paul is talking about....
Philippians 3:4-6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Luke 1:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.
water baptism was never for repentance and remission of sins under the law...
Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
it is funny that you argue it is any works one could boast of...actually he is talking about how one is saved...what works did they consider to have the ability to save..(works of the law)......what works could have boasted about...(works of the law).....do you think they believed just any works had the ability to save...????so to even think that it is just any work shows how little you understand scripture...
O Ye Slow of Heart to believe the simple Gospel, of "Trust Me."
O Ye Stubborn of Pride who cannot confess how sinful you are, which implies you must be saved by grace, not works. Here it is once more:
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
[All them who believer, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]
for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]
For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them who believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
O Ye Stubborn of Pride who cannot confess how sinful you are, which implies you must be saved by grace, not works. Here it is once more:
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
[All them who believer, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]
for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]
For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them who believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
You have not studied history very much have you? the pagans were a very ritualistic works based religion. Paul was sent to the gentiles to teach them. So when paul spoke of them about works, Unless he specifically said works of the law. They would have understood him to mean works of any type. either pagan works, or jewish works.
If anything James would have spoke of the works of the law. James spoke to people who practiced works of the law. They would more than likely thought Ja,es meant works of the law. they gentile pegans who have come to God through pauls message.
Oh, and PS. people did boast of baptism..
I was baptised of paul, I was baptised of apollos etc etc.
People boasted of it all the time, and paul had to defeat this boasting.
The teaching of disciples would have put distinct lines between the Law of Yahweh and any other system...
Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"
If you look at all the Messiah's interactions with the pharisees, He went out of His way to break their law while keeping Yahweh's Law. FACT.
We are saved by many, many operations -- but all of them are done by God alone except one, namely trusting Christ as Savior -- that is the one man must do. Salvation is free for us as it comes from God's grace -- but we cannot fathom the cost He paid for our salvation. Christ sweat as it were great drops of blood in anticipation of doing the work that would win us salvation.
His grace has planned it all;
Tis ours but to believe,
& recognize His work of love,
and Christ receive.
No merit of my own,
His anger to assuage,
The gospel to man is
ONLY BELIEVE, exact words (in English) twice,
but reiterated over & over where nothing but faith/belief/trust in Christ is required of man.
by saying that
whosoever believes, everyone who believes, all who believe;
scripture rules out adding anything else essential on man's part.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus[/B], that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or
by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Eph
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
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E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes he did.. He never broke the sabbath, he broke their sabbath. He did it purposely to mock them. (and people say he did not have a sense of humor)
When speaking to jews, yes I think he would talk alot of the law. But when speaking to gentiles. I think they did not make a distinction.
When paul said we are saved by faith, not work. I do not think he differentiated anything, I think he meant works of any type. whether of the law, religion or any deed. Same it titus, when he spoke of works of righteousness. I think he just meant good deeds of any type.
your mombojumbo does not fit with our discussion ...it seems to me you dont understand that Paul is trying to tell these people they are in Christ and not the Jewish religion ...and the works is referring to works of the law....
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
K
Kerry
Guest
you have to consider that it is easy for a gentile to want to gravitate toward the Jewish customs ....no works the gentiles did were ever considered as works that could save...but works of the law were considered works of righteousness which could save ....the works that Paul referred to had to be works that one would consider to be able to save...not just any work....when one look at the text there is the indication of comparison and the only work that could be compared to grace through faith is works of the law......
Galatians 3:21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.