WORKS SALVATION

[FranC]

Some teach certain things must take place or you're not saved when reality the Spirit works with all of us differently.. My process won't look like yours. When im asked to conform that is works based

Conform how?
You mean like go to Church every Sunday,
study your bible,
join the choir...

??

IF you're doing it to please the pastor, yes, it would be a work.
You should want, or be led, to do it, then it won't be a work.

I'm starting to get a differet idea of work...
Later.

 

[Persuaded]

Hi T,

Yes, this is the confusion I have also. Not for ME, but for how Others explain it to me.
We ARE saved by grace through faith.

We DO have to do good works because Jesus said so. He said to do as He commanded.
NOT to "help me along" but because HE said so.

This is when I'm told I believe in works salvation. It's quite confusing to say the least.

You said that works are an outgrowing of our faith.
Perfect.
OK. So what if I STOP doing anything, go back to m old ways because anyway I'm saved by grace????
I see this as very wrong...

Hebrews speaks of one who turns from God's ways.
God our Father will chastise His children.
Those He does not chastise are not His.
Conviction and chastisement when we fail are proof of our salvation and returns us to His will.

 

[FranC]

Fear God and Keep His Commandments, for this is the whole duty of MAN.'

Yes. I agree.
So if this is our duty, why are some so opposed to this??

Are we not SUPPOSED to keep God's commandments?
Which Jesus chissled to two, but they cover everything.

 

[Persuaded]

Well, actually I have. But then the person who believes in eternal salvation will say that they were never saved to begin with!
(which is doing something we're not supposed to do --- judge another person's soul)

Actually, that's not the item on the list that I was talking about.

It was this item...:

These are works because your salvation it is based on what you do or do not do and not on what Jesus did and continues to do.

We must always rely on Jesus and never on ourselves.
Jesus never fails while we do time and time again.
When we doubt our salvation, that is often Satan.
Satan loves to take away the joy we have In Jesus.

 

[FranC]

Hebrews speaks of one who turns from God's ways.
God our Father will chastise His children.
Those He does not chastise are not His.
Conviction and chastisement when we fail are proof of our salvation and returns us to His will.

By the above do you mean sin or are you talking about someone who says they no longer believe in God and they just
walk away from the faith?

I'm talking about the second situation.

For the first, you just ask forgiveness and move on.

 

[kaylagrl]

Hi Kaylagirl,

I don't know any Church that teaches what you say ---- that you could do enough works to EARN your way into heaven.
And that includes the Catholic Church who also teaches Ephesians 2:8. Sure of this.

Of course we can't earn our own salvation! God is ALMIGHTY.

So, is there a difference between saying that we are to obey God, or that it's necessary to obey God and works salvation?

I mean, if I say that I believe we are required to obey God --- would you understand that to mean that I'm talking about works salvation??

Let me take a different approach. Mother Teresa,and Im picking her for no other reason than her obvious good works. She certainly out shined us all in the works department. Now I dont know her heart or her relationship with the Lord. If I asked most unchurched people "did Mother Teresa go to heaven?" They would say "of course"! And they would say that because of her works. But for me,my question would be "did she know Jesus as her personal Savior,did she have a personal relationship with Him? If not her works were in vain. Works do not save us,BUT when we become saved we will want to do good works. We cannot do enough works,flagellate ourselves and pay for our sin with penance. The only thing that saves is His blood. Once again,saved by faith for good works.

 

[Zi]

There are some who teach to get baptized by a certain time, pray for x amount of hours, give some specific amount. Thats what works is. telling someone the aren't saved if they haven't done something yet. There is no absolute formula for 1 way

Conform how?
You mean like go to Church every Sunday,
study your bible,
join the choir...

??

IF you're doing it to please the pastor, yes, it would be a work.
You should want, or be led, to do it, then it won't be a work.

I'm starting to get a differet idea of work...
Later.

 

[oldethennew]

only they can answer for themselves, Fran, as all of us must do...

 

[Persuaded]

By the above do you mean sin or are you talking about someone who says they no longer believe in God and they just
walk away from the faith?

I'm talking about the second situation.

For the first, you just ask forgiveness and move on.

Sin is sin is sin.
When you walked away, what happened.
Did God leave you alone or did He come to you? Did He chastise you? Did He draw you back?
Tribulations comes into all our lives and each reacts differently. Some fight , some run, some doubt, but in the end a child of God will turn to his Father.
A son is always a son.

 

[Desertsrose]

Hi Fran,


From what I gather reading scriptures, being saved by works would be putting the cart before the horse. We just don't go anywhere if we think we have to work to be saved. There's none righteous, no not one.


In the OT, one had to have faith. If all they did was obey the law without faith, they had no relationship with the Father. They didn't have the faith of Abraham.


A person is saved by grace through faith. The Grace of God saves us through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. We repent of our sins during the process of the new birth. This is at the heart of the Gospel of the Kingdom.


Jesus speaking with the disciples tells them, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14


And Jesus came up and spoke to them after he died saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20


The apostles in their teaching throughout the New Testament taught that we the church are to obey all that Jesus has commanded. When Jesus spoke of abiding in the vine He tells us we can do nothing without abiding in Him. And He tells us if we love Him, we will obey His commandments.


And when we trip up He tells us to confess our sins and we'll be forgiven. He'll cleanse us from all unrighteousness because when we sin we get dirty spiritually speaking.


The believer who believes that after we've been saved we continue to abide in Him and because we love Him we obey His commands is not working for salvation. The new birth causes our wanter to change. The wanter switch is turned on now and we want to obey and we want to resist sin. In fact we hate sin and love righteousness.


I love to love one another and forgive others, care for others an even love our enemies. It's all a sanctification process, but we grow in obedience. Working for the Kingdom is not a works salvation. If it was, Paul, Peter, James, John and the rest of the apostles are in trouble because they spent their whole life working for God 24/7.

 

[Depleted]

This is not in BDF because I'm hoping to have a quiet and civil conversation.

You could use scripture or you could not. However, it is allowed to ask for scripture,
of course, if necessary.

So...

I believe that one must obey God.
I've been told that this is "works salvation" and that it is not a good thing.

Would anyone care to explain exactly what Works Salvation is?

Thanks.

I don't have much hope this will end well, but then again there have been many times I haven't, and it did, so why not?

A. "I believe that one must obey God."
How's that working for you? You "must obey." Do you? If you say "yes," then discussion is done right there. But I think you are sane, so let's go with you answer honestly, and recognize you don't. At least, not all the time. (Honestly? For most of us, not even most of the time, but explaining that would guarantee an argument.) So, if you must, but you don't, what happened to salvation? Did you lose it? Did you ever have it? And, if you're being honest, yet again, "must obey God" isn't about salvation.

So what is it about? Should we obey God? Of course, but where did must come from? Some free-flowing thought to contend against grace-only. (Which is why that thread keeps on going on. It is as if those are the two choices -- must obey vs. grace-only. It's neither, but everyone keeps arguing their POV so hard they don't have room for that concept either.)

B. What is works Salvation? [url]https://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-by-works.html[/URL]

 

[mailmandan]

Works salvation as I have had it explained to me is basically the idea that you're saved by grace, but you have to do good works to get to heaven. Which is a very sticky situation! That is basically saying that Christ isn't enough, and you need works to "help" yourself along. Totally not Biblical, since the Bible makes it very clear that Christ IS enough.

But to say that we shouldn't work for Christ is also not Biblical. So...? I like the term saved BY grace FOR works. Works do not save us. They are merely an outgrowing of our faith given by grace.

Amen! Well said! Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Now for those who teach we are saved by works (at least in part), I would like to ask them, "exactly how many works must you accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?"

 

[Tinuviel]

Hi T,

Yes, this is the confusion I have also. Not for ME, but for how Others explain it to me.
We ARE saved by grace through faith.

We DO have to do good works because Jesus said so. He said to do as He commanded.
NOT to "help me along" but because HE said so.

This is when I'm told I believe in works salvation. It's quite confusing to say the least.

You said that works are an outgrowing of our faith.
Perfect.
OK. So what if I STOP doing anything, go back to m old ways because anyway I'm saved by grace????
I see this as very wrong...

Exactly. Romans 6 addresses this very strongly. "Shall we go on sinning that grace may abound? God forbid." AND, I don't remember the rest of the chapter but the whole thing is about that .

 

[FranC]

like uniformity.
Every 'salvation' must hit certain points in the same order and way or its not true salvation

I believe each person comes to God in their own way.
One way is not superior to another.
God accepts us all as we come and as we are.

I think this is what you meant by uniformity...
The only uniformity is that we are to FOLLOW Jesus.

 

[FranC]

Some teach certain things must take place or you're not saved when reality the Spirit works with all of us differently.. My process won't look like yours. When im asked to conform that is works based

Agreed. 100%.
We each have our walk.
All we have to do is do what God tells us to do.
Follow Jesus.

It's different for each one of us.

 

[FranC]

We must always rely on Jesus and never on ourselves.
Jesus never fails while we do time and time again.
When we doubt our salvation, that is often Satan.
Satan loves to take away the joy we have In Jesus.

OK P

This is what you said that I would have wanted to get into.
Since you repeated it, I will !

First of all, just to get the idea out of the way, if we doubt our salvation, it means we're saved.
Unsaved persons don't worry about being saved or not.
We should never allow satan to take away our joy...

What I'd like to address is this... You said.

We must always rely on Jesus and never on ourselves.
Jesus never fails while we do time and time again.

What theology is this? What does it mean?

Jesus left us and sent the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit helps us in our walk with God.
That's His job --- He's the paraclete.

Jesus is the Savior. He completed His work as Savior.
Now it's the Holy Spirit that helps us.

What do you mean that we RELY on Jesus and not on OURSELVES?
What do you mean that Jesus NEVER FAILS while we do AGAIN AND AGAIN?

We rely on Jesus for our salvation.
We fail when we sin, I guess this is what you mean.

But I hear some here say that we don't have to do anything
or that Jesus does it all.

Do you realize what these means theologically??

IF JESUS IS DOING IT ALL, and not us...
Then it's HIS fault when we sin.

Please stop and think this over.
Jesus did HIS part, now it's up to us to do our part.
Our part is to follow Him the best we can, and He'll make up for the rest.

 

[FranC]

I have, Persuaded.

Just in case Persuaded doesn't reply...

The big question is:

How do you know the person was really saved???

(like it's our place to know anyway)

I also know some who have fallen away.
I believe those who do not believe one can fall away, has to also believe that when we become born again we lose our free will...

 

[FranC]

Let me take a different approach. Mother Teresa,and Im picking her for no other reason than her obvious good works. She certainly out shined us all in the works department. Now I dont know her heart or her relationship with the Lord. If I asked most unchurched people "did Mother Teresa go to heaven?" They would say "of course"! And they would say that because of her works. But for me,my question would be "did she know Jesus as her personal Savior,did she have a personal relationship with Him? If not her works were in vain. Works do not save us,BUT when we become saved we will want to do good works. We cannot do enough works,flagellate ourselves and pay for our sin with penance. The only thing that saves is His blood. Once again,saved by faith for good works.

Two comments:

1. I agree.

2. This is not what I mean by "works". Maybe this is the problem. (not using the correct word on my part)


I'm formulating my idea and will post it when I'm done reading a few more posts...

 

[FranC]

There are some who teach to get baptized by a certain time, pray for x amount of hours, give some specific amount. Thats what works is. telling someone the aren't saved if they haven't done something yet. There is no absolute formula for 1 way

I'd say that I need a different word other than "works". But Jesus used this term. He also said "good deeds".
THINKING...

 

[FranC]

I don't have much hope this will end well, but then again there have been many times I haven't, and it did, so why not?

A. "I believe that one must obey God."
How's that working for you? You "must obey." Do you? If you say "yes," then discussion is done right there. But I think you are sane, so let's go with you answer honestly, and recognize you don't. At least, not all the time. (Honestly? For most of us, not even most of the time, but explaining that would guarantee an argument.) So, if you must, but you don't, what happened to salvation? Did you lose it? Did you ever have it? And, if you're being honest, yet again, "must obey God" isn't about salvation.

So what is it about? Should we obey God? Of course, but where did must come from? Some free-flowing thought to contend against grace-only. (Which is why that thread keeps on going on. It is as if those are the two choices -- must obey vs. grace-only. It's neither, but everyone keeps arguing their POV so hard they don't have room for that concept either.)

B. What is works Salvation? [url]https://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-by-works.html[/URL]

D,

I DO believe that we must obey God. Why does that make me crazy??
Just because I BELIEVE I must obey God, doesn't mean I do all the time !
Is this the divide??
I mean, I believe I MUST make dinner every evening, but once in a while I don't, for different reasons.
It's Always semantics !!

And, you're right. No. Not obeying all the time does not mean I lost my salvation. We'd be on a see-saw. Pretty dumb idea.
So it's not about salvation. OK.

So, where did the DESIRE to obey come from?
From our desire to please God. Can't it not be for different reasons?
Isn't this what Zi is talking about? About how each one of our walks is different?

Maybe I obey because I love God,
maybe I feel indebted for what He did for me,
maybe I'm afraid of hell (not a good reason, but why can't it work?),
maybe I love Jesus so much and am so thankful.
etc...

Do you feel the reason is so important?

The "grace only" people seem to believe that if I don't line up exactly with their point of view, I'm somehow wrong.

It seems to me that I'm more grace oriented than they are since i'm able to accept differing points of view!!

I did give a quick look at GotQuestions.
I don't like to use links or the internet; the opinions will Always be biased one way or the other.
I like knowing theology and Learning from main denomination churches.

I ike discussing between ourselves --- I learn more this way.

Thanks for your reply.
BTW, I think QotQuestions has it right about how man feels he needs to have his good works outweigh his bad works, but when one knows something about God, this all goes out the window...