You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

FreeGrace2 · May 22, 2022

Except Mark 16:9-20 wasn't written by Mark. Those verses are not found in the oldest manuscripts. That means they were added later by an unknown scribe. The verses are therefore NOT inspired.

But those who still accept v.15 need to realize that what will damn a person is those who "believeth not". That is exactly what the verse says. It leaves OUT any mention of baptism.

And this parallels two other verses about who will be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Couldn't be more clear. Condemnation is for those "who have not believed" as both verses state plainly. And agrees with Mark 16:15.

Amen!

birdie · May 23, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Thanks FreeGrace2 for your comments. I am happy to hear of another person who looks at this the same way. Your comment about Mark 16 having part of a verse missing in the older manuscripts is interesting and something of which I was not aware. I tend to just accept that the King James Version is in an inspired form however it got codified. Even if you take away the part about 'and is baptized', which I am not saying should be done, it would still be a similar idea, since we believe on the Lord Jesus to wash away our sin. So many verses of the Bible add just a little extra understanding to what is often just one situation. For example, a person is saved by the action of God and pretty much at the same time believes and is forgiven.

Wansvic · May 23, 2022

DavidTree said:

Obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is an act of faith in Jesus.

People who believe in Jesus obey His command to repent and be baptized and God remits their sins. Those who do not have faith, will not repent and be baptized, or if they are baptized their sins will not be remitted. Those who believe in Jesus will commit themselves totally to Christ and God will fill them with the Holy Spirit. Those who do not have faith will not receive the Holy Spirit.

Faith is what appropriates God’s grace. Faith yields to God, obeys His Word, and allows Him to perform His saving work in us.

DavidTree · May 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

Obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is an act of faith in Jesus.

People who believe in Jesus obey His command to repent and be baptized and God remits their sins. Those who do not have faith, will not repent and be baptized, or if they are baptized their sins will not be remitted. Those who believe in Jesus will commit themselves totally to Christ and God will fill them with the Holy Spirit. Those who do not have faith will not receive the Holy Spirit.

Faith is what appropriates God’s grace. Faith yields to God, obeys His Word, and allows Him to perform His saving work in us.

What is your religious background - RCC, GO, ???

DavidTree · May 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

Myself and Trillions of other Saints were Born-Again by the Spirit and had our sins washed away by the Blood of Jesus years, months weeks and days BEFORE we were ever water baptized.

Never put the cart before the horse = not God's Will = Read again John chapters 1 thru 3

DavidTree · May 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

Obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is an act of faith in Jesus.

People who believe in Jesus obey His command to repent and be baptized and God remits their sins. Those who do not have faith, will not repent and be baptized, or if they are baptized their sins will not be remitted. Those who believe in Jesus will commit themselves totally to Christ and God will fill them with the Holy Spirit. Those who do not have faith will not receive the Holy Spirit.

Faith is what appropriates God’s grace. Faith yields to God, obeys His Word, and allows Him to perform His saving work in us.

Good - you are getting back on track with the Will of God concerning Salvation.

Wansvic · May 23, 2022

DavidTree said:

Jesus said only those who have been reborn can SEE the kingdom. (John 3:3)Those who accept by faith what is specifically stated in Acts 2:38 and act in obedience have their spiritual eyes opened. Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit results in the NT rebirth and aligns with Jesus' statement in John 3:5. Only those who have had their sins remitted and have been indwelt by the Spirit will gain entrance into the kingdom of God.

DavidTree · May 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

John 3:5 NEVER mentions water baptism and does not align with Acts

AND water baptism is NOT necessary to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Myself and Billions of other Believing Saints received =
A.) our sins washed away
and
B.) Holy Spirit New Birth
and
C.) Baptism of the Holy Spirit
before
D.) we were water baptized =
just like in Acts ch10

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

KelbyofGod · May 23, 2022

DavidTree said:

John 3:5 NEVER mentions water baptism and does not align with Acts

AND water baptism is NOT necessary to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Myself and Billions of other Believing Saints received = A.) our sins washed away and B.) Holy Spirit New Birth and
C.) Baptism of the Holy Spirit
before
D.) we were water baptized = just like in Acts ch10

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Did you receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

If so, what happened? How did you know you'd received it versus still needed to receive it? What changed?

Love In Jesus,
Kelby

FreeGrace2 · May 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

And v.5 says "enter the kingdom". So Jesus was talking about the SAME THING. Getting into the kingdom. You can't see what is in a house until you enter the house. That's all.

But, speaking of John 3, v.3-6 prove that "born of water" is a reference to physical birth.

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Color coding these verses shows the relationship between verses. Without question.

Jesus didn't even bring up the ritual of water baptism of the NT Church. In fact, John 3:5,6 proves that Jesus was speaking about physical and spiritual birth.

Forgiveness (remitted) of sins is by believing in Jesus Christ, per Acts 10:43. The indwelling of the Spirit is by believing in Jesus Christ, per Gal 3:2,5.

So, all of this is by believing in the Savior to save you.

Water baptism SYMBOLIZES the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is His ministry of placing the believer IN HIM, per Eph 1:13.

Water baptism demonstrates and SYMBOLIZES the believer's UNION with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

DavidTree · May 23, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

i received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit within the first year of being Born-Again by the Spirit.

There is a difference between being Born-Again by the Spirit and then being Baptized by the Spirit, this can happen together or it can happen sometimes many years apart from each other and many christians will never know or recieve the Baptism of the Holy Spirit because of unbelief, religion and/or sin.

Wansvic · May 23, 2022

DavidTree said:

I'm a follower of Jesus. I accept all scripture as written. Denominational teaching most times is a mixture of truth and man's tradition. The result is acceptance of some scripture and rejection of others in accordance with personal preference or experience.

Throughout my walk with Jesus I've found that my personal experience must line up with God's word not vice-versa. Rejecting scripture does not negate one's responsibility to what it states.

DavidTree · May 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

John 3:5 NEVER mentions water baptism and does not align with Acts the way you want it to based on your religious background.

The GOSPEL never confirms that Christ's Shed Blood PLUS water baptism saves us.

The GOSPEL was first preached by GOD to Adam & Eve and NO water baptism was part of the Saving Grace of GOD.

KelbyofGod · May 23, 2022

Btw, concerning not putting the cart before the horse:

God established baptism for remission of sins BEFORE Jesus died on the cross. Baptism for remission of sins was done in faith of God's word by his prophet. That horse was out the gate before the rest of it followed. And God set it up that way. So we're not putting the cart before the horse (So to speak).

That's why it's important to pay attention to John's baptism. Lest we forget the order God set things up.

First came baptism for remission of sins = established by John (@ God's command Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3)

Then Jesus making the atonement with his blood (also at God's word).

Then the outpouring of the Holy Ghost AFTER he ascended to his father (according to God's word / Jesus' word Luke 24:47-49 and Acts 1:4-8)

I think its awesome that God separated the beginning of remission of sins from the beginning of receiving the Holy Ghost by the entirity of Jesus preaching ministry. That way those that are sincere (but wondering) can see the separation clearly.

God is so good.

Love In Jesus,
Kelby

DavidTree · May 23, 2022

Wansvic said:

AMEN - You are very close to the Absolute TRUTH

Now follow your own words here, which are correct, and allow the Fullness of the GOSPEL to realign your mind so that you have the complete Picture of Salvation which was first spoken by GOD to Adam & Eve in the Garden.

Read thru the Genesis, Gospel of John, Acts and the Apostles Letters and finally Revelation to SEE the Fullness of Salvation who is a PERSON and not a pool of water.

DavidTree · May 23, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

NEVER happened that way - please read again the Gospel which is FIRST given in Genesis without water baptism.

water baptism can never wash away sins but it is all about what Jesus said: "to fulfill all righteousness"

BLOOD of CHRIST = analogy speaking here = Horse - whereas water baptism = cart

sins forgiven thru water baptism = cart before the horse

So let's say your placing the cart BEFORE the LAMB

OK, now we're KOSHER

i have to go now - be back later today - PEACE

peldom10 · May 23, 2022

DavidTree said:

Sufficient mention here;

birdie said:

Mark is well substantiated with other scriptures, even though God's word does not need to be.
His word is His word. Very clear.

Baptism is Required

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

peldom10 · May 23, 2022

by anyonepresentged

Wansvic said:

Bless you, bless you and bless you.

If ...... new age religion folks........would apply that conclusion to God's word this world would be a better place and more folks would receive eternal salvation.

FreeGrace2 · May 23, 2022

peldom10 said:

Then go ahead and handle poisonous snakes and drink poison and get back to me.

And Mark 16:9-20 isn't God's Word, but some unknown scribe's addition to God's Word.

Not for salvation. It is required to show obedience which symbolizes the believer's union with Christ. Eph 1:13

your refusal to quote the first part of this verse clearly demonstrates your dishonesty. It begins with "this water (literal) SYMBOLIZES the baptism..."

Literal water never saved anyone. Just ask the population of the world during Noah's flood. Or the entire Egyptian army when they were pursuing the Israelites through the Red Sea. How did that work out for them?

They all died in the water. Water kills when immersed or submerged in it.

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

The red and blue words in v.5 refer to the red and blue words in v.6.

Therefore, we KNOW that Jesus was referring to physical birth in v.5 by "born of water".

KelbyofGod · May 23, 2022

DavidTree said:

I'm going to answer as if you're being honest in your explanation. (Because you repeatedly strike me as such)

As a person starts finding God.. (Start to learn about him, seek him, ask of him, even hear his voice). It seems most encounter church doctrines about this point (either before or during).

Each church has it's own doctrine about how to be "Saved" , which the young disciple heeds... and does... according to what they're being told because they are zealous to do whatever God wants.

Then the disciple is told they are "Saved" (and of course have the Holy Ghost).

Some, (apparently you are one of these) actually receive the Holy Ghost at a later date, which comes with the same evidence it did @ first outpouring on the day of Pentecost and the other recorded occurrences in the book of Acts.

Thats actually when people receive the Holy Ghost. But some of their friends, teachers and even pastors havent had this experience. So what's up with that?

It is NOT unbiblical for someone to believe in Jesus as being the messiah sent to die for THEIR sins, and even to get baptized, and YET still not have received the Holy Ghost until a later date. That's what happened with the group in Acts 8:1-17. It's normal. That's why God had that instance recorded in Acts 8. So people will know what can happen.

(But I'll have to finish this later as I need to drive home now)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

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