Simple Question...No Simple Answer

[notuptome]

Also because a child loves unconditionally, and obeys what they are told to do.
I am not adding nothing to the word. It clearly says only through Jesus can one be saved, this is why the road is narrow.
Because by no other name can one call on to be saved by then Jesus Christ.
Jesus tells us the qualities and actions that will follow one who believes in Him. If one does not have these qualities and those actions don't follow they are not a true follower of Him, and therefore no salvation.

Having raised children I can say that their obedience is far from assured but they are still children and need love and guidance. Their actions do not make them children their birth takes care of that their nature is one of disobedience which requires chastisement to correct.

God will chastise and correct those that are His. The works that are meaningful are those that God works in and through us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Elin]

"Yes or no" answer to this simple question--have you stopped beating your friend?

No, I am still beating my friend.

So. . .is your answer to my question the truth about you, or is it a lie?

Did the terms of my question allow you to give the truth of the matter with only a simple "yes or no" answer?

In order to answer the question with a simple yes or no,
you apparently had to lie,
because the truth of the matter could not be stated with a simple yes or no.

Likewise, your "simple question" which is to be answered with a "yes or no," does not allow for the truth of the matter.

And yet, contrary to all logic, you somehow think it reveals the truth of the matter.

Can one's faith never produce works and still be saved anyway?

I note your avoidance tactic regarding my post which demonstrates that

your question disallows the truth of the matter.

 

[posthuman]

"faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone"

- a brother that a lot of other 'brothers' love to hate​

 

[twotwo]

This type of debate makes me think of a former Christian guru who said to his disciples, do sexual evil and you will be saved. And they did because to be saved sounds great to them. They didn’t realize, however, that only Jesus could save us from our sins. It is Him who will raise us from the dead. Christianity without our Lord Jesus is nothing but foolishness…

Arguing that works are useless is like proclaiming that there won’t be a Judgment day. As it is written: “…and each person was judged according to what they had done (rev 25, 13)”. Arguing that works are useless is like proclaiming that Jesus’s commands and teachings are unimportant… As it is written: “Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?”

The truth is that Jesus calls us to do good works, to love others as He loved us. We are called to love our enemies, to bless those who curse us, to do good to those that hate us and to pray for those who persecuted us. We are called to lay down our life for the lost sheep as Christ did. All of that is impossible without faith.

As the Lord would say: “Depart from me you, who did nothing. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me”.

 

[Human]

say i can't feed the poor or tend the sick to some human standard because i myself am both poor and sick -- are you offering next that if i send you $19.95 monthly God will look over my shortcomings?

i know this is true: there is no more condemnation for us in Christ.

That's a really ugly, cynical way to look at it, and it takes the problem out of context and out of view. The point is; can you simply have just 'faith' that God will save you, without doing anything, and he'll still save you? That is, will God save you for having faith without being compassionate, without wanting to be self sacrificing, loving, kind, caring, gentle, patient and forgiving with the ability to do so?

If someone literally does not have the ability to do any of those things, then the answer's probably clear, but just because one person may not be able to do any of it, doesn't mean everybody shouldn't do any of it. Don't give us false correlations.

If your point is 'faith is enough because some people can't do works', well you're wrong. Without works there's nobody to look after the person who can't do them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again you get the wrong concept.
I never said we can remove the penalty of our sins.

What I said is Jesus gave us a way to be reconciled to God, by taking our punishment for sins and being our sacrifice for sins once and for all. We now have to accept what the Lord did for us, by obeying Him through repenting of our sins, being baptized, and confessing Him before others while living a new life serving Him instead of sin.

If you continue to walk in willful sin, or turn back to willfully sinning after you know the truth then you serve that sin and do not serve the Lord. There is no salvation in this kind of lifestyles.

To refuse what the Lord commanded us to do is denying Him, and He said those who deny Him, He will deny before the father......No salvation.


Your works determine who you serve !!!!!

No, Your missing the concept.

The shedding of blood is ALL that can take away sin.

You have the work of water baptism, and living a life worthy essential and required to have the penalty removed.

Which is it? the blood of Christ, Or our works? it can not be both, or else God lied.

this is what the law showed. A sacrifice was given. It was given over and over, because even at their best behavior. no one could be good enough to make it so sacrifice was not required. NO ONE. Not even the priest. You do not even understand what the law pictured yet, Until then you will not understand grace, and still think your worthy.

Yes, How we act is who we serve. I have children that act like they have faith in me, And obey me, I have also seen them walk away and serve themselves. But they were still my children and I did not love them any less. My love and forgiveness, and their knowledge of what happens when they do things themselves bring them back to me. This is the way it is with God!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This type of debate makes me think of a former Christian guru who said to his disciples, do sexual evil and you will be saved. And they did because to be saved sounds great to them. They didn’t realize, however, that only Jesus could save us from our sins. It is Him who will raise us from the dead. Christianity without our Lord Jesus is nothing but foolishness…

Arguing that works are useless is like proclaiming that there won’t be a Judgment day. As it is written: “…and each person was judged according to what they had done (rev 25, 13)”. Arguing that works are useless is like proclaiming that Jesus’s commands and teachings are unimportant… As it is written: “Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?”

The truth is that Jesus calls us to do good works, to love others as He loved us. We are called to love our enemies, to bless those who curse us, to do good to those that hate us and to pray for those who persecuted us. We are called to lay down our life for the lost sheep as Christ did. All of that is impossible without faith.

As the Lord would say: “Depart from me you, who did nothing. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me”.

the problem comes when you start preachng those works are required to get to heaven, for then you are making the gift of eternal life not a gift, but a reward for things done.

even the last verse you reference had people who did work in Christ name, yet jesus said he never knew them (they were never saved)

You can take two people, who on the outside look the same (as far as works) when they stand before God, on will endure the bema seat judgment, where they are rewarded for their work by fire, and reciewve reward, or see it burnt, the other will be judged by his works, and be cast into the lake of fire, why? he did not have faith in christ.

even though when you and I look at them, they both seemed to be doing the work of God. the probem is, one was playing a game of some sort, In the case of the people Jesus said depart. the game of legalism) the other was empowered by God because he was given the spirit.

as John and james say, those born of God can not sin, and will work, those not born of God will sin, and may appear to be doing work. but it is all for nothing

 

[newbirth]

Genuine faith first .... good works next

Works without faith are dead and have no value

Do not follow religious movements that subject you to a set of selected dogmas

These will tell you if you do not follow their prescribed legalisms that you are not saved

You will also be told that your membership in their "cult like" organization is a requirement for your salvation

Today's professing church is filled with this devised methodology for gain .... stay away from them

the scripture teaches faith without works is dead...so faith with works must be the genuine faith...not good works next.....if your faith is without works ...how can it be genuine when it is dead...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the scripture teaches faith without works is dead...so faith with works must be the genuine faith...not good works next.....if your faith is without works ...how can it be genuine when it is dead...

hey, your finally getting it.

so tell me, who will be saved with a dead faith (which is no faith at all, just mere belief)?

 

[newbirth]

the problem comes when you start preachng those works are required to get to heaven, for then you are making the gift of eternal life not a gift, but a reward for things done.

even the last verse you reference had people who did work in Christ name, yet jesus said he never knew them (they were never saved)

You can take two people, who on the outside look the same (as far as works) when they stand before God, on will endure the bema seat judgment, where they are rewarded for their work by fire, and reciewve reward, or see it burnt, the other will be judged by his works, and be cast into the lake of fire, why? he did not have faith in christ.

even though when you and I look at them, they both seemed to be doing the work of God. the probem is, one was playing a game of some sort, In the case of the people Jesus said depart. the game of legalism) the other was empowered by God because he was given the spirit.

as John and james say, those born of God can not sin, and will work, those not born of God will sin, and may appear to be doing work. but it is all for nothing

the problem is when you start preaching you can get to heaven without works.....
2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

were the apostles who were working together with God earning their salvation???

when Christ said without me you can do nothing.....did it cross your mind that he wants you do something?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the problem is when you start preaching you can get to heaven without works.....
2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

were the apostles who were working together with God earning their salvation???

when Christ said without me you can do nothing.....did it cross your mind that he wants you do something?

lol.. see here we go again.

You assume I believe a true christian would never do works. because you refuse to listen.

Gods children will do works, they do not get to heaven because of them.

many people will do work to get to heaven though (like yourself) and one day day your going to stand in front of God and declare your work in his name, and he will say depart from me, for he never knew you.

I teach works, I help chasten them who do not do works, but struggle with sin.

But if they are not headed to heaven, I can not do that, for I would be judging them, not help save them. They can not do any good until they are saved, then they will do works which will astonish them.

when you stop ASSUMING I am teaching a licentious gospel (judged by both james and jude, and yes even paul) then MAYBE JUST MAYBE, you can start to understand what I and those like me are saying,

As long as you think we are teaching what we are not, you will continue to make false accusations, and never hear a word we or anyone else says,

 

[gb9]

exactly e.g. , they think that folks like us are saying " just believe in Christ and then you can do whatever or nothing and go to heaven." that is not at all what is being said, but they won't listen.

 

[newbirth]

hey, your finally getting it.

so tell me, who will be saved with a dead faith (which is no faith at all, just mere belief)?

That is what I have been saying all along I have not changed anything....no one will be saved through faith without works...dead faith

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is what I have been saying all along I have not changed anything....no one will be saved through faith without works...dead faith

No. now your getting off the point and miss it again.

The true answer is no one will be saved without faith.

It is not the works which save, it is the faith.

those who have faith WILL WORK. those who do not have faith (a faith that is dead or non existent) WILL NOT WORK. (or their works will not be applied, because they are for self, not God, because their faith is in self)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

exactly e.g. , they think that folks like us are saying " just believe in Christ and then you can do whatever or nothing and go to heaven." that is not at all what is being said, but they won't listen.

yes, A person who has true faith in God, and has been given the spirit of God in their hearts would NEVER do this, For one, they would not want to. For two, GOD will CHASTEN THEM, and turn them back to him, who can withstand the chastening of God?

 

[newbirth]

lol.. see here we go again.

You assume I believe a true christian would never do works. because you refuse to listen.

Gods children will do works, they do not get to heaven because of them.

many people will do work to get to heaven though (like yourself) and one day day your going to stand in front of God and declare your work in his name, and he will say depart from me, for he never knew you.

I teach works, I help chasten them who do not do works, but struggle with sin.

But if they are not headed to heaven, I can not do that, for I would be judging them, not help save them. They can not do any good until they are saved, then they will do works which will astonish them.

when you stop ASSUMING I am teaching a licentious gospel (judged by both james and jude, and yes even paul) then MAYBE JUST MAYBE, you can start to understand what I and those like me are saying,

As long as you think we are teaching what we are not, you will continue to make false accusations, and never hear a word we or anyone else says,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

[newbirth]

No. now your getting off the point and miss it again.

The true answer is no one will be saved without faith.

It is not the works which save, it is the faith.

those who have faith WILL WORK. those who do not have faith (a faith that is dead or non existent) WILL NOT WORK. (or their works will not be applied, because they are for self, not God, because their faith is in self)

James 2:13-14King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 

[mailmandan]

"faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone"

Most simple answer. "faith (IN CHRIST) alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone" (solitary, unfruitful, barren of works - because it is a living faith and not a dead faith).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]2 [/SUP]I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

1. Yep. these are gods people. why? THEY HAD FAITH.

2. removing a lampstand is not removing ones salvation, it is removing their usefulness on earth. a lampstand is not for Gods sake, it is for the sake of the lost.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James 2:13-14King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

yep, and why CAN'T his faith save him?
IT IS NOT FAITH, IT IS JUST BELIEF. even demons believe, yet tremble