Simple Question...No Simple Answer

[notuptome]

Again, you did not answer this question "can you have Faith without any works and still be saved?" it is a simple yes or no question.

You can have all the faith in the world and not be saved. It is grace that saves not faith. You can have a mountain of works and not be saved. It is grace that saves. Grace cannot be earned, merited or deserved only received from the heart of God.

If you will believe what is written about Christ you can be saved then you can serve by working for Christ.

False teachers always ask false and misleading questions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jabberjaw]

You can have all the faith in the world and not be saved. It is grace that saves not faith. You can have a mountain of works and not be saved. It is grace that saves. Grace cannot be earned, merited or deserved only received from the heart of God.

If you will believe what is written about Christ you can be saved then you can serve by working for Christ.

False teachers always ask false and misleading questions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Who has not been offered grace?

 

[posthuman]

it's good i think, that someone bound, imprisoned and isolated, and unable to do any of the "works" that satisfy mankind, is probably also unable to read threads like this, so that his faith in God's ability to justify and sanctify him apart from works isn't diminished.

i hope it can also somehow spur the reader to obedience to righteousness, and not just to frustration with foggy doctrine.

 

[Elin]

See post 131.

POST #131:

These 10 lepers had "faith" Jesus would cleanse them, notice in the following verse they were not yet cleansed, but all did the works of going to show the priests they were cleansed (and yet as they left they had not yet been cleansed showing some degree of faith), it was not until (it came to pass) "as they went" they were cleansed :

Luke 17:14 (KJV)
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

These lepers (all 10) were cleansed, but 1 out of the 10 ran back to Jesus, praising God giving God thanks :

Luke 17:15-18 (KJV)
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. 17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? 18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

this "righteous works" of this 1 man out of the 10 men was saved, notice the following versel
the word "whole" which is translated from the Greek word "σεσωκεν" (sozo) which means "saved" :

The Greek word "σεσωκεν" is "sesoken," not "sozo," and "sozo" (saved) is
the Greek word meaning "whole," which is "to make or keep sound or safe."

Luke 17:19 (KJV)
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

9 men, show of faith (they had to believe Jesus would heal them or they would not have headed for the priests, they were not yet healed until being on their way to see the priests Luke 17:14) and even though healed were not saved) no righteous works, not saved even with faith.

1 man out of 10 that showed faith in the Lord same as the other 9 and was healed, showed righteous works by returning to Jesus and giving "glory to God" (Luke 17:17-18) :

Luke 17:17-18 (KJV)
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? 18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

BECAUSE OF this one mans RIGHTEOUS WORKS (returning to Jesus praising God, a work the others that were healed did not do) was made "whole" (Greek word "σεσωκεν" (sozo) meaning "saved").

Luke 17:19 (KJV)
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

So "faith alone" did not save this 1 man, "faith with empty works" did not save this man (the other 9 were healed but not saved by empty faith as well this man), but AFTER "faith" AND THEN AFTER "righteous works" of RETURNING TO GLORIFY GOD, was this man "σεσωκεν" made whole (different from the other 9) "saved".

Faith alone will never save anyone just like it did not save the 9.

Jesus and the Jews were born, lived and died under the Law and its curse (Gal 3:10).

The Gospel of salvation by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9) was not proclaimed until after his death
when God's justice on the guilt of his people was thereby propitiated (Ro 3:25).

All ten lepers were cured on their way to see the priest, before they had accomplished
any work of obedience.
Jesus told them to show themselves to the priest because the Law required that the priest must declare lepers clean before they could return to the camp.

That the lepers set out for the priest before they were even healed demonstrates their faith.
That they were healed before the work of reporting to the priest demonstrates that their faith alone
was the means of their healing.

This miracle was not about their personal salvation, it was about their healing as a sign.
All Jesus' miracles were signs, showing the nature of the kingdom
(Jn 2:11, 23, 3:2, 4:48, 6:2, 14, 26, 30; 12:37, 20:30).

This sign shows that in the kingdom the order is faith-->salvation-->obedience (works).

The Samaritan did not go to the priest, but returned to Jesus upon his healing in the way.
The Samaritan was not part of the Jewish community, and was not required to report to a priest.
He is a sign of salvation to the Gentiles because the Jews did not receive Jesus as the One whom God sent.

The Jewish lepers who did not return to give thanks suggest a sign of the transient
non-saving faith of Lk 8:13.

Faith alone made all 10 lepers whole, as a sign that in the kingdom faith alone saves.

 

[Elin]

Saving faith = belief + obedience.
Without both, it is not true faith, but counterfeit faith.

Regarding salvation--only belief saves you.

Regarding sanctification--the Holy Spirit sanctifies through the obedience of faith.

There is no salvation without sanctification.
If one is not being sanctified through obedience, one has no assurance of salvation.

But it is faith only that saves,
the works which necessarily follow from true faith do not save, for one is already saved by the faith which produces those works.

Again, you did not answer this question
"can you have Faith without any works and still be saved?"

it is a simple yes or no question.[/QUOTE]
A simple "yes or no" question--have you stopped robbing banks?

 

[Elin]

it's good i think, that someone bound, imprisoned and isolated, and unable to do any of the "works" that satisfy mankind, is probably also unable to read threads like this, so that his faith in God's ability to justify and sanctify him apart from works isn't diminished.

i hope it can also somehow spur the reader to obedience to righteousness, and not just to frustration with foggy doctrine.

It's not just foggy doctrine, it is anti-gospel doctrine.

 

[SeaBass]

You must ask the question correctly to receive a correct answer.

We are saved by grace. Grace is complete and totally efficacious. Nothing can be added to Gods grace. Grace is all of God and nothing of man. Faith is not grace. Faith is given by grace to those who hear the word of God. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God. The word of God is able to make one wise unto salvation.

The works you claim one "must" do must be done by the Holy Spirit operating in the believer. All of man's works are as filthy rags in Gods sight. The peaceable fruit of righteousness is wrought by the Holy Spirit not by the will of man.

Faith is the trust we place in God that by His grace He saves us for all of eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

One who is a Christian must do good works to maintain his salvation, Eph 2:10...God "before ordained" Christians walk in good works. You try to get around this by saying the Holy Spirit does the good works for the Christian. God did NOT before ordain the Holy Spirit walk in good works but the Christian.

Can one be a Christian and saved yet not do good works? No.


Isa 64:5; Acts 10:35 God accepts those that work His righteousness, not treated as filthy rags.

 

[SeaBass]

To produce good fruits takes works. But if you doesn't produce good fruits, then you'll be cast away. So make a tree good,and its fruit will be good and which that also takes works. You'll shouldn't be listening to anyone about what takes faith, because they already knows where they are headed, but they are trying to take you with them. And so you should go by what is written, not by what some else tell you. So if someone tell you something, make sure the scriptures confirm it.

Jn 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

Can one who is already a Christian NOT bear fruit/not do good works but be saved anyway? NO. Yet "faith only" says good works are not necessary for the Christian for the Christian was saved by faith only and would continue to be saved by faith only, no works ever necessary.

 

[Human]

Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]

These types of arguments are where my problems with modern Christianity come about. If a person has faith (faith, which means, 'belief') that Jesus will save them, it doesn't logically follow that they will actually do anything with that belief, for instance help people, feed the poor, tend to the sick, work towards the abolishment of injustice or try to create systems for the common good. Anybody can turn round and say 'I believe Jesus will save me', so to say that faith on that matter definitely leads to good fruit is a bit blind. I know lots of people who believe it, who say it, and who do practically nothing but espouse words that cause affliction and disparagement.

So perhaps there needs to be an in depth analysis of what the word 'faith' actually denotes and encompasses.

To my eyes, to have 'faith' isn't simply to have a belief that Jesus will grant entrance to the heaven we see romanticized in novels and film as some shiny place in the clouds. In my eyes, having 'faith' is to practice daily the things Jesus speaks of; self-control, the cultivation of compassion, benevolence and self sacrifice, and salvation comes because to truly believe in these tenets is to truly believe the instruction Jesus gave. It is to consciously BE 'Christ-like', faithfully.

The salvation in such practice is self-evident, because the sins that cause people to stumble are carefully and meticulously avoided or learned from in such a way as to actively position a person in a place of rescue from the thought patterns ( and subsequent actions) that ail them; from 'sins', if you like. Metaphysically speaking, the argument becomes a lot more difficult, because we have to ask about the life after this one.

I often wonder if the term 'the life after this one' isn't a metaphorical representation of the life a person lives after realizing that love, compassion and benevolence are more beneficial lifestyles than rampant indulgence. I'm not etymologist but I can definitely see room for a different interpretation of terms in this regard.

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass I wonder what your intention is? I don't know if you're really that fallacious or if you really are that blind. I don't say that to insult you, but to state it as a matter of fact. It is not an ad hominem, it is just plainly seen. Your logic is fallacious on many accounts, and you have ignored my refutation of your question being a dichotomy. You must re-word it, otherwise it is not answerable, let alone biblically.

Genuine faith may result in works. That statement does not go in contrast with faith only. Some people may not have the chance to do such works or some people may not listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit (out of ignorance). We are not saved by faith plus something (works), we are saved by grace through faith. You wish to put emphasis on works, as to say if you do not work then you are condemned. Such a thing is said in contrast to the grace of God. It is said in direct contrast to the Gospel.

We have faith that has the possibility of leading to works, but there are factors to consider why such works don't come to fruition. Also, when in James it speaks of faith without works being dead, that is equivalent to saying a body without a soul is dead. Notice, there is still a body but it is useless. It is the same with faith. It is useless without works, but what is it useless for? Salvation? No, guess again. It is useless for the rewards we will get for our works. Do you see? We are not getting a reward for our faith, but the reward is based upon our works; therefore faith without works is dead in so far as rewards are concerned.

Works are important, but they are not important for your salvation. As if they earn favor upon God's decision on Judgement Day (sarcasm). God's decision to save you is based upon His grace and what Jesus Christ has accomplished for you through his death and resurrection. Nothing else. NOTHING. NO THING. Continue to emphasize works, but do it for the right reasons. Not for salvation, because there is no other way to the Father except through the Son. Do it for rewards, even so just out of the goodness of your heart and who you now are in Christ.

Now other faith onlyists have said faith WILL result in good works
You now say it 'may" result in good works.

There is no may in Eph 2:10 but what God BEFORE ORDAINED.

Therefore it is not possible for one to be a Christian and be saved without doing good works..no 'may' to it.

You posted "Works are important, but they are not important for your salvation."

So you are saying a Christian can still be saved without doing works yet Eph 2:10 says otherwise.

You posted "God's decision to save you is based upon His grace and what Jesus Christ has accomplished for you through his death and resurrection. Nothing else. NOTHING."

Then EVERYONE will be saved then. If God's basis for salvation is man doing NOTHING, then why is it that some who do NOTHING will be saved while others who do NOTHING will be lost?

 

[SeaBass]

NO!

Because he WOULD NOT BE A CHRISTIAN. why? HE DID NOT HAVE SAVING FAITH.

You think God is going to save someone who does not have faith??

And should I answer it with a yes? NO! WHy? Mere beliefe will not save you. True faith saves you. Those who have to faith will produce works their faith empowered them to do (with Christ.)

I asked "Can one who is ALREADY a Christian NOT do any good works at all (just have faith only) and still be saved by that faith only?"



You answered "NO"

.....and you just made him being a Christian/saved CONDITIONAL upon him doing works.....you have just made his salvation conditional upon works.

If one cannot be a Christian WITHOUT doing good works then how can one ever be saved WITHOUT doing good works.

You posted " Those who have to faith will produce works....

This is not faith only but faith AND works.


If one is saved by faith only then he would NEVER have to do ANY works in his entire life yet still be saved. If he ever has to do any works then you stop him being saved by faith only but saved by faith AND works.


You cannot say a man is saved by "faith only" then say BUT his faith will produce works...a contradiction.

A man is either 1) saved by faith only no works ever

or

2) he saved by faith AND works

but not both at the same time.

 

[SeaBass]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I would say that faith only saves..........GOD looks at the heart and knows our intentions.

John 3:16
king james version(kjv)


16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Romans 4:1-2
king james version(kjv)

[SUP]1.)[/SUP] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?[SUP]
2.)[/SUP] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before GOD.

Man needs to see your good (physical)works and if the faith is true a man will do good works.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings but for others that might look at this post,if a person has been changed (saved) they already know that faith produces good work that can be seen and its a basic question that only someone would ask if they were not doing good works.

If faith only saves then one would NEVER have to do any obedient works in obeying God's will (heb 5:9) nor would one ever have to do any good works (Eph 2:10), right?

 

[posthuman]

Isa 64:5; Acts 10:35 God accepts those that work His righteousness, not treated as filthy rags.

it is good to have a look at the verses you make reference to.

in Acts 10:35 Peter says he now realizes how true it is that God accepts people from every nation who fears him and does what is right. he is speaking about how God had sent him to Cornelius, a Gentile - hence "people from every nation"

but what is it Cornelius had done that "is right" ?

look back at v. 30 -- Cornelius says:
Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon

this is what Cornelius had done that is right: seek God.

reading on through the account, we find that God filled these Gentiles with the Holy Spirit when they sought Him by listening to what the apostle taught them, heard the gospel of Christ and believed it - having done nothing else but heard and believed. not baptized with water, not giving alms to the poor, not helping little old ladies across the appian way -- seeking God, hearing and believing.

it is as Christ said - the work of God is to believe on the One He sent.

i am sure that they also did righteous things after they believed. after they believed and were justified by God in the presence of the apostle, they went on to publicly declare their faith and sanctification by being baptized in water, for example. here is a work they did beyond that which saved them - for they had already been sealed and justified by God when they believed.

if we can save ourselves we don't need a savior.
if we point at our own works as able to commend us to God we're denying the Savior.
if we say we believe Him and refuse to take part in Him we're liars.
if we say He saves us and say also that salvation is worked by our own hands, we're also liars.

it's double-mindedness. Christ saves us, Christ alone saves us, and it is not ourselves - it is the gift of God, that no one can boast or accuse. His grace is sufficient for us - let's not pretend it needs some salt before it will taste good.

 

[SeaBass]

Works are a product of Faith.
Let us use a metaphor. Oxygen will be Faith, and carbon dioxide will be works.

To live, a person must breath in oxygen, just as to be saved a person must have faith.
The natural product of respiration is carbon dioxide, just as the natural product of Faith is good works.

If a person breaths in air that has no oxygen they will suffocate, just as if a person does works without faith will perish.

The solution for a suffocating person is to be given oxygen, not carbon dioxide,
Just as the solution for an unbeliever is to be given Faith, not works.

Oxygen is what saves, not carbon dioxide,
Just as Faith is what saves, not works.

BUT, a person MUST breathe out once they have breathed in oxygen!

Keep the distinction Sea bass, because without it many deceive themselves into thinking they are saved,
but are simply going through the motions without any true life within the actions.

Preach Grace and Faith to the lost,
and urge the Believers on to good works.
Don't confuse the call given to Believers with the call given out to the lost.
There is an order of operations. Faith unto good works. Never confuse that order.

You say works are a product of faith.

What I am saying is if faith only saves then one would NEVER have to do ANY works to be saved, right?

 

[posthuman]

If faith only saves then one would NEVER have to do any obedient works in obeying God's will (heb 5:9) nor would one ever have to do any good works (Eph 2:10), right?

haven't you said "faith = obedience" ?

are you tearing down the same thing you are trying to build up?

 

[SeaBass]

Jesus said the tree seen by if fruit.

If the man have real faith in Jesus than it must bear good fruit/work.

You say he MUST bear fruit/do good works > you made work a "MUST".

What happens if he does not bear fruit/has no good works at all, will that Christian be saved anyway?

If you say "No" then you are making his his salvation dependent upon him bearing fruit, MUST do good works.
If you say "yes" he can be saved anyway then you refute your own position in saying he MUST bear fruit/do good works.


So how will you answer?

 

[SeaBass]

Like my simple "yes or no" question which you do not answer--have you stopped beating your friend?

This has nothing to do with what I am asking.


If one is saved by faith only then he NEVER has to do any works at all, right?

 

[SeaBass]

Yes. We are saved by grace through faith.

Good works are the DEMONSTRATIVE EVIDENCE that faith is genuine. Genuine good works cannot be produced without first having genuine faith. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. We are made alive together with Christ, saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

The answer is no and genuine faith trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and not in works.

The answer is no and that is a dead faith evidenced by a lack of works. Good works are the fruit of a living faith, not a dead faith.

"Genuine faith" that saves is dependent upon that "genuine faith" trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation. Genuine faith in Christ is alive, not dead, and good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of genuine faith and not the means of our salvation.

It would be impossible to have "genuine faith" that saves but then NEVER produce any good works. All believers are fruitful, but not all believers are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

That is an oxymoron. If we have genuine faith, then it will show. Why do you have so much faith in works? Isn't Christ's finished work of redemption sufficient enough for you? Why do you feel the need to turn to supplements? I didn't answer yes because genuine faith that never produces any good works is an oxymoron. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works. Saved FOR good works is NOT saved by good works. Christians walk in good works BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved.

We are not saved by faith only - per James - EMPTY PROFESSION OF FAITH - SAYS/CLAIMS TO HAVE FAITH BUT HAS NO WORKS (James 2:14). The absence of evidence (of works) can be construed as evidence of absence (of faith). Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root. We SHOW our faith by our works. Genuine saving faith in Christ is first rooted and established when we "trust exclusively in Christ for salvation" then good works follow as the fruit, but not the root of salvation.

Again you post "Good works are the DEMONSTRATIVE EVIDENCE that faith is genuine."


Do you see the implication of this statement that if one does NOT have good works then he does NOT have a genuine faith? Can one be saved without a genuine faith? No, then he MUST have good works in order to have a genuine faith.

Do you not see that you have tied having a genuine faith with good works whereby you cannot have one (genuine faith) without the other (good works).

Your statement has made it IMPOSSIBLE for one to have a genuine faith WITHOUT works... one MUST have the works in order to have the genuine faith.

 

[notuptome]

It is grace that saves. Works are produced by grace. Grace is wholly of God and nothing of man. It is false and misleading to assert that salvation is by faith when God said it is by grace.

The argument must be distorted to be about faith when it correctly is about grace. Man can convince himself that he has a part in faith but there is no meaningful method to ascribe any part of grace to mans efforts.

God has seen to it that grace is all sufficient and nothing can be added or taken away from Gods grace. The rest is just an empty argument against God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Then you are an incorrigible, confessed and guilty criminal who hard-heartedly refuses to give up his crime.

You are subject to criminal charges and penalty, which should be executed against you.


Contradiction of terms. . .non-sensical, absurd question.

Can one's faith never produce works and still be saved anyway?


If you believe faith only saves then you would have no problem at all answering "yes".....but you are scared to for some reason.

If say faith MUST produce works then you kill you faith only argument. Maybe this is why you are do not want to answer it.