ATONEMENT

[michael56]

I could refute people all day long on here but, just as with the Pharisees, those who cannot see simply cannot see.

.

The Pharisees demanded of others what they could not attain to in their own lives. They knew the literal letter of the then scriptures inside out, but did not understand the message that letter contained.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I could refute people all day long on here but, just as with the Pharisees, those who cannot see simply cannot see.

If Jesus could not convince the Pharisees with supernatural miracles what hope do I have with mere words on a forum.

It is the pure in heart who will see God. Jesus said that and Jesus meant that. Any doctrine which contradicts the words of Jesus is false.

then why do you preach it?

You can;t refute us, all you can do is bear false witness against us, post a few words of scripture and say it proves your point, and puff yourself up.

the pharisees did the same thing with Jesus, it did not make them right.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Pharisees demanded of others what they could not attain to in their own lives. They knew the literal letter of the then scriptures inside out, but did not understand the message that letter contained.

yep. just like the NT says, he is placing a burden on people the jews could not even handle.. yet he is blind to his own pride and deceitfulness.

 

[Elin]

I could refute people all day long on here but, just as with the Pharisees, those who cannot see simply cannot see.

I'd settle for your addressing the plain meaning, being true to their words, of just the first two
Scriptures (Isa 53:5-6; 2Pe 2:24) below.

The whole OT sin sacrifice (propitiation) system was substitutionary atonement.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. . .
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree." (2Pe 2:24)



"And he is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 2:2)

". . .he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 4:10)

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation) through faith in his blood (death)."
(Ro 3:25)

Wounding--bruising--death (capital punishment) is penal,
for our sins is substitutionary,
as propitiation is atonement.

 

[Cassian]

It is possible. We have victory over sin through the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. That is the promise that sets us free from the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death. It is a manifest present state we enter into whereby we walk according to the Spirit the bondage of sin having been broken.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We are set free from sin through dying with Christ (in repentance) whereby the body of sin is destroyed once and for all, thus ending the service of sin permanently.

We are made free from sin through our obedience to the truth.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The consequences of sin still remain yet we do not suffer the consequences because we stop serving sin. It is like a heroin addict will suffer the consequences of heroin so long as they keep taking it. For them to be set free of the consequences of heroin they have to stop taking it.

It is the same with sin. The wages of sin is death, it will always be death. The gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ, that is ABIDING in the Spirit of His life. That is why faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9) and obedience to the truth through the spirit purifies the soul (1Pet 1:21).

We are made clean THROUGH the word (1Joh 8:3) when we yield to that word wholeheartedly. That is the dynamic that produces an inward transformation. We are saved by grace through faith.

The power of sin is through the law simply because one cannot turn away from God without knowledge. Rebellion requires something to rebel against and the law (either the conscience or direct commandment) gives sin its opportunity to kill.

These things are not hard to understand.

Another excellent explanation. There are just so many ways to explain it without watering it down to nothingness, but yet some still cannot grasp spiritual truth.

 

[Skinski7]

Another excellent explanation. There are just so many ways to explain it without watering it down to nothingness, but yet some still cannot grasp spiritual truth.

I referenced this verse wrong.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Joh 15:3 not Joh 8:3.



Elin,

I have gone in circles with you many times. You wouldn't settle for anything I teach regarding this subject save a promotion of Penal Substitution. It is not going to happen. I do not wish to repeat myself to you as I have laid it all out so very clearly in this thread among others.

All I need to do is point to the elephant in the room which is the repudiation, by Calvinists, of being able to "love one another with a pure heart." That one issue utterly destroys any religion which denies it and all you folks who deny it are forced to tip toe around that elephant.

 

[michael56]

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. [SUP]4 [/SUP]It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.[SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]8[/SUP]First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb 10:1-10

Why were sacrifices, burnt offerings and sin offerings made? They were made for the forgiveness of sins under the old covenant. They were NOT MADE in order for people to enter the covenant, but for the forgiveness of sins of people under the covenant. Such sacrifices are no longer needed under the new covenant, why?

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. verses 11-14

Christ made a once and for all time sacrifice for sins under the new covenant. No other saxcrifice is needed for those under the new covenant as it was under the old one. Why is this not a licence to sin? For the new covenant comes in two parts, not one:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary verses 15-18

As the writer states in the previous chapter:

Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin(unto condemnation) by the sacrifice of himself Heb 9:25&26

Therefore:

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

How can this be? He paid the price of your sins at Calvary. What is the result?

Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14

Why?

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I referenced this verse wrong.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Joh 15:3 not Joh 8:3.



Elin,

I have gone in circles with you many times. You wouldn't settle for anything I teach regarding this subject save a promotion of Penal Substitution. It is not going to happen. I do not wish to repeat myself to you as I have laid it all out so very clearly in this thread among others.

All I need to do is point to the elephant in the room which is the repudiation, by Calvinists, of being able to "love one another with a pure heart." That one issue utterly destroys any religion which denies it and all you folks who deny it are forced to tip toe around that elephant.

thats your problem.

You listen to men, and not God, You think it is a you vs a calvanist. When most of us here are not calvanist.

Elin showed you quite clearly the truth of substitution atonement, That is what the word redeem means, Jesus purchased our freedom on the cross. As scripture plainly teaches, without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness. You can not shed your own blood. your blood is guilty, because it has fallen short of the glory of God (rom 3: 23) thus your only hope is the death of Christ as a substitute for you. Reject that, and you reject salvation.

 

[michael56]

I referenced this verse wrong.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Joh 15:3 not Joh 8:3.



.

Possibly Jesus idea of clean is different from your wooden interpretation of it:

Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. “You also were with Jesus of Galilee,” she said.[SUP]70 [/SUP]But he denied it before them all. “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” he said.
[SUP]71 [/SUP]Then he went out to the gateway, where another servant girl saw him and said to the people there, “This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth.”
[SUP]72 [/SUP]He denied it again, with an oath: “I don’t know the man!”
[SUP]73 [/SUP]After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, “Surely you are one of them; your accent gives you away.”
[SUP]74 [/SUP]Then he began to call down curses, and he swore to them, “I don’t know the man!”
Immediately a rooster crowed. [SUP]75 [/SUP]Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: “Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” And he went outside and wept bitterly. Matt26:69-75

According to your Gospel, why wasn't Peter condemned? He had failed to purify his heart obviously according to your doctrine.

 

[Skinski7]

Possibly Jesus idea of clean is different from your wooden interpretation of it:

Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. “You also were with Jesus of Galilee,” she said.[SUP]70 [/SUP]But he denied it before them all. “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” he said.
[SUP]71 [/SUP]Then he went out to the gateway, where another servant girl saw him and said to the people there, “This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth.”
[SUP]72 [/SUP]He denied it again, with an oath: “I don’t know the man!”
[SUP]73 [/SUP]After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, “Surely you are one of them; your accent gives you away.”
[SUP]74 [/SUP]Then he began to call down curses, and he swore to them, “I don’t know the man!”
Immediately a rooster crowed. [SUP]75 [/SUP]Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: “Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” And he went outside and wept bitterly. Matt26:69-75

According to your Gospel, why wasn't Peter condemned? He had failed to purify his heart obviously according to your doctrine.

Always arguing in favour of wickedness. Sin, sin and more sin.

Why not argue in favour of righteousness?

Peter repented of his denial of Jesus and wept bitterly. Jesus Himself taught that if we deny Him He will deny us. Peter had to repent of His denial and never do it again and he never did. He was martyred for his faith. He didn't teach what you teach.

It was Peter who wrote this...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Yet you won't refer to that will you?

Peter ties the new birth to loving one another out of a pure heart fervently. You won't go there because you obviously despise genuine righteousness. Heart purity is an anathema to you. It doesn't have to be, but it is because you choose to reject it.

Peter also wrote...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Cease from sin? Not in your gospel. You argue in favour of ongoing sinning with impunity because you are forgiven in advance.

Should I go on? There is no point really because you don't believe the Bible. Have you noticed that you don't even talk about these scriptures I post, they appear to be invisible to your eyes.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Be diligent that ye may be found in him in peace, without spot, and blameless. What manner of persons ought we be in ALL holy conversation and godliness. Conversation means behaviour.

Conversation - anastrophē
From G390; behavior: - conversation.

That is what Peter taught. Yet you'll use Peters sin to defend the notion of ongoing wickedness, to deny heart purity in salvation, and argue in favour of forgiveness in advance. You simply do not believe the Bible.

Peter spoke of past sins being purge, not future.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Peter speaks of escaping the corruption in the world through lust by the exceeding great and precious promises by which we have been given ALL THINGS that pertain to life and godliness.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Yet you don't teach that. Instead you argue in favour of wickedness and being able to sin with impunity.

Jesus said,

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

You obviously don't believe Jesus, not the Jesus described in the Bible anyway. You have another one of your own imagination.

 

[michael56]

Always arguing in favour of wickedness. Sin, sin and more sin.

Why not argue in favour of righteousness?

.

Oh I do argue in favour of righteousness. It is your preaching that leaves the power of sin in place in a persons life. It is your preaching that places the emphasis on the individual, not on Christ for living an ever holier life. Paul tells us:

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh Phil 3:3

The power of the Gospel is in grace, not relying on self effort to achieve.

Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace

The Gospel message is. Because Jesus died for all your sin to give you a right standing with God of faith in Christ, not obedience to the law, sin shall not be your master. You refuse to accept that message. Biblically speaking, the people who most held to your belief, could look righteous on the outside, but were full of hypocrisy, wickedness and everything unclean on the inside

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Always arguing in favour of wickedness. Sin, sin and more sin.

Why not argue in favour of righteousness?

in reality, it is you who argue for sin, by denying the sin in your life. you chose which sins not to commit, and ignore the rest.

We do argue in favor of righteousness. God righteousness. which works in and through us. not our own righteousness which is filthy rags.

 

[oldthennew]

Always arguing in favour of wickedness. Sin, sin and more sin.

Why not argue in favour of righteousness?

Peter repented of his denial of Jesus and wept bitterly. Jesus Himself taught that if we deny Him He will deny us. Peter had to repent of His denial and never do it again and he never did. He was martyred for his faith. He didn't teach what you teach.

It was Peter who wrote this...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Yet you won't refer to that will you?

Peter ties the new birth to loving one another out of a pure heart fervently. You won't go there because you obviously despise genuine righteousness. Heart purity is an anathema to you. It doesn't have to be, but it is because you choose to reject it.

Peter also wrote...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Cease from sin? Not in your gospel. You argue in favour of ongoing sinning with impunity because you are forgiven in advance.

Should I go on? There is no point really because you don't believe the Bible. Have you noticed that you don't even talk about these scriptures I post, they appear to be invisible to your eyes.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Be diligent that ye may be found in him in peace, without spot, and blameless. What manner of persons ought we be in ALL holy conversation and godliness. Conversation means behaviour.

Conversation - anastrophē
From G390; behavior: - conversation.

That is what Peter taught. Yet you'll use Peters sin to defend the notion of ongoing wickedness, to deny heart purity in salvation, and argue in favour of forgiveness in advance. You simply do not believe the Bible.

Peter spoke of past sins being purge, not future.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Peter speaks of escaping the corruption in the world through lust by the exceeding great and precious promises by which we have been given ALL THINGS that pertain to life and godliness.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Yet you don't teach that. Instead you argue in favour of wickedness and being able to sin with impunity.

Jesus said,

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

You obviously don't believe Jesus, not the Jesus described in the Bible anyway. You have another one of your own imagination.

===============================

Oh without a doubt some will fall for the magician's tricks -
but, the sick will the True Prophets heal.

 

[Sophia]

I suppose the divide here is that one side says that salvation is the result of justification through our faith in Christ,
and the other side says salvation is the result of sancification through our faithful works in Christ.

I say that they are both part of the same salvation.
Saved by Grace, through Faith, unto good works.

If personal salvation is only by sanctification, then no person can consider themselves saved in this life. We are all a work in progress until the day we pass away.
Thus the reason many in the Orthodox Church believe in prayers for the dead and postmortem donations to the church. The end result is basicly the same as Catholic "indulgences".

There is no excuse for sin for anyone, especially a Believer.
But there is power to overcome sin, and the forgiveness of sins, to those in Christ.

For the sake of the consciences of the Orthodox here, be assured that I am Baptized, participate in Communion, and pursue holiness and righteous works. For the sake of the consciences of everyone else, be assured that my trust is not in such works, but in Christ for my salvation. The works are a passionate, yet necessary, expression.

Faith and works are not opposed, as we all agree.
The disagreement is WHY we work. It is not works unto salvation, but salvation unto works.

 

[Cassian]

If personal salvation is only by sanctification, then no person can consider themselves saved in this life. We are all a work in progress until the day we pass away.

Attaining eternal life is a work in progress. There is never a moment in this life that one can say they are saved. Scripture confirms this very vividly. We possess eternal life but man is free, as long as he has breath, to reject Christ, to fall back into sinful living.

Thus the reason many in the Orthodox Church believe in prayers for the dead and postmortem donations to the church. The end result is basicly the same as Catholic "indulgences".

You have a gross misunderstanding of both what scripture states and what the Orthodox believes. First it has nothing to do with the RCC understanding.
The Orthodox continue to pray for their loved ones even though they they have died because our sanctification will never be completed, even in heaven. We are creatures after all, and we shall never attain the perfection that God has. Sanctification as you call it, is not seen as a point in time occurrence. This is what Theosis means which you stated earlier. The scriptural support for it is in II Cor 3:18 and in I Cor 1:18.

Theosis, or sanctification is a dynamic continual process in holiness, purity of heart and sharing in His Divine Nature II Pet 1:4.
It is all part of the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints. We are never separated from each other even though a loved one has died.

 

[dcontroversal]

in reality, it is you who argue for sin, by denying the sin in your life. you chose which sins not to commit, and ignore the rest.

We do argue in favor of righteousness. God righteousness. which works in and through us. not our own righteousness which is filthy rags.

No doubt...the righteousness of GOD WITHOUT the law is imputed to those who have genuine faith.....

Christ is the end of the LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS unto all that believe.....

and Elin's explanation was correct.....Christ paid my sin debt (ALL of my sin debt) on the cross of Calvary and redeemed me(bought me back) from sin and the bondage of sin........while justifying me before GOD (declared righteous and innocent before GOD) all by and according to FAITH!