Jehovah's Witnesses vs Old Time Religion

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WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#1
-
My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's
Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and naïve, and thus
assumed that the hewer of wood, and hauler of water who came down the
driveway was a fellow Christian. But when I talked this over with a
Protestant church elder he became alarmed; and urged me to read a little
book titled 30 Years A Watchtower Slave by William J. Schnell; whom the
Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I would not be
surprised if it still does.

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
steered towards another book titled Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin.
No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of classes sponsored by a
local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The instructor
(call him Pete) was an ex Witness who had been in the Watch Tower Society
system for near three decades and was a wide-area manager before
terminating his association with the Society; so he knew the ins and outs of
its doctrines pretty good.

Pete pioneered a small organization in San Diego dedicated to de
programming and re-educating ex Witnesses. It was a challenge. The ex
JW's with whom Pete worked were often very depressed with feelings of
betrayal and disillusionment-- not to mention the humiliation and the
despondence they were experiencing from letting themselves be duped by
the Society's ingenious sophistry --and found it nigh impossible to trust
ecclesiastical authority. Pete said that had he not been an ex Witness
himself; many of his students would never have listened to him.

Pete didn't train us to defeat the Society's missionaries in a discussion
because even if you best them scripture for scripture, rebuttal for rebuttal,
and refute for refute, they will not give up on the Society. Their mind's
unflinching premise is that the Society is right even when it can be easily
proven wrong. No, he trained us to do seven things:

1• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and
discuss it with you.

2• Don't give them a chance to launch into their spiel, but immediately put
them on the defensive with your own questions, thus denying them control
of the conversation

3• Do not get embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas,
Christmas trees, blood transfusions, the design of the wooden device upon
which Christ was crucified, service in the military, and that sort of thing.

4• Force them to listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have
to repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise
your voice. Do not let them turn their attention elsewhere while you're
speaking.

5• Do not permit them to butt in and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly,
insist that they remain silent until you are finished speaking.

6• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They
will sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more
knowledgeable. When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely
for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have
the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic of their own.

7• It's very important to show them the Bible not in ways they've already
seen, but in ways they've never imagined.

The goal is to simply show missionaries that the Society's isn't the only
interpretation out there. In other words: the Watchtower Society's
interpretations aren't the only option; nor are theirs eo ipso the right
interpretations just because they say so.

Later on, I read a book titled Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses by Ted
Dencher and eventually purchased a copy of the Society's Kingdom
Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures to use in my discussions with
missionaries because it is the one Bible that they cannot challenge; nor dare
to challenge. I also read and studied the Society's little brown book titled
Reasoning From The Scriptures.

From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although
the Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and
phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in
Society-speak than what you'd expect. It is genuinely a case of apples and
oranges going by the same names. So your first challenge in dealing with a
Watch Tower missionary is to scale the semantics barrier; and that by itself
is an Herculean task.

=====================
 
Last edited:
T

tanach

Guest
#2
-
My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's
Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and naïve, and thus
assumed that the hewer of wood, and hauler of water who came down the
driveway was a fellow Christian. But when I talked this over with a
Protestant church elder he became alarmed; and urged me to read a little
book titled 30 Years A Watchtower Slave by William J. Schnell; whom the
Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I would not be
surprised if it still does.

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
steered towards another book titled Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin.
No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of classes sponsored by a
local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The instructor
(call him Pete) was an ex Witness who had been in the Watch Tower Society
system for near three decades and was a wide-area manager before
terminating his association with the Society; so he knew the ins and outs of
its doctrines pretty good.

Pete pioneered a small organization in San Diego dedicated to de
programming and re-educating ex Witnesses. It was a challenge. The ex
JW's with whom Pete worked were often very depressed with feelings of
betrayal and disillusionment-- not to mention the humiliation and the
despondence they were experiencing from letting themselves be duped by
the Society's ingenious sophistry --and found it nigh impossible to trust
ecclesiastical authority. Pete said that had he not been an ex Witness
himself; many of his students would never have listened to him.

Pete didn't train us to defeat the Society's missionaries in a discussion
because even if you best them scripture for scripture, rebuttal for rebuttal,
and refute for refute, they will not give up on the Society. Their mind's
unflinching premise is that the Society is right even when it can be easily
proven wrong. No, he trained us to do seven things:

1• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and
discuss it with you.

2• Don't give them a chance to launch into their spiel, but immediately put
them on the defensive with your own questions, thus denying them control
of the conversation

3• Do not get embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas,
Christmas trees, blood transfusions, the design of the wooden device upon
which Christ was crucified, service in the military, and that sort of thing.

4• Force them to listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have
to repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise
your voice. Do not let them turn their attention elsewhere while you're
speaking.

5• Do not permit them to butt in and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly,
insist that they remain silent until you are finished speaking.

6• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They
will sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more
knowledgeable. When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely
for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have
the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic of their own.

7• It's very important to show them the Bible not in ways they've already
seen, but in ways they've never imagined.

The goal is to simply show missionaries that the Society's isn't the only
interpretation out there. In other words: the Watchtower Society's
interpretations aren't the only option; nor are theirs eo ipso the right
interpretations just because they say so.

Later on, I read a book titled Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses by Ted
Dencher and eventually purchased a copy of the Society's Kingdom
Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures to use in my discussions with
missionaries because it is the one Bible that they cannot challenge; nor dare
to challenge. I also read and studied the Society's little brown book titled
Reasoning From The Scriptures.

From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although
the Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and
phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in
Society-speak than what you'd expect. It is genuinely a case of apples and
oranges going by the same names. So your first challenge in dealing with a
Watch Tower missionary is to scale the semantics barrier; and that by itself
is an Herculean task.

=====================
My feelings are that unless you feel strongly that you have been called to witness to JWs the best thing to do when one knocks on the door or meets you in the street is to say polite no thank you and leave it at that. Otherwise you will get entangled in a long fruitless debate that will leave you frustrated and them further entrenched in their delusional theology.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#3
-
you will get entangled in a long fruitless debate that will leave you frustrated
and them further entrenched in their delusional theology.
The Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and
phrases, but those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in
Society-speak than what you'd expect. It is genuinely a case of apples and
oranges going by the same names. So our first challenge in dealing with a
Watch Tower missionary is to scale the semantics barrier; and that by itself
is an Herculean task.

For example: were we to ask door-to-door Watchtower Society missionaries
if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure you they
would answer in the affirmative. However, what you may not know is that
we and they would not be on the same page as the conversation would be
talking about two very different processes that go by the same name. In
other words: you would find yourself thrown off by semantic double speak.

The standard Christian understanding of Christ's resurrection is common
throughout the gospels; viz: Jesus Christ died as a physical human
being and he came back as a physical human being.

According to the Watchtower Society's resurrection theory; Christ didn't
physically rise from the dead at all; and here's why.

In Watch Tower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But the Society insists it is
impossible for someone to exist as a human being and a spirit being
simultaneously. So then, in order for Michael to come to the earth as a
human being, his existence as an angel had to be terminated.

However, according to the Society, Michael's life force survived his death;
and was transferred to Mary's womb where Michael was re-born as a human
being.

I am unaware at this time as to the Society's disposition of Michael's angel
corpse during the years on earth when he was existing as a human being.

But Michael's existence as a human being was only temporary. When God
"raised" Jesus from the dead, it was not actually Jesus who got raised from
the dead; it was Michael. Seeing as how Michael the angel had gone
completely out of existence when he became Jesus the human being; God
had to re-create Michael the angel from memory; in other words: in Society
theology, Michael the angel has undergone creation twice.

Bottom line: According to the Society; Jesus Christ's crucified body is still
dead; and his remains are squirreled away somewhere on earth in a
condition and a location known only to God.

What about Christ's alleged post resurrection appearances?

Well; according to the Society; those were not actually Christ. Those were
Michael disguised in a human avatar that was, in all respects, a perfect, fully
functioning knock-off of the real Christ.

==================================
 
T

tanach

Guest
#4
-


The Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and
phrases, but those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in
Society-speak than what you'd expect. It is genuinely a case of apples and
oranges going by the same names. So our first challenge in dealing with a
Watch Tower missionary is to scale the semantics barrier; and that by itself
is an Herculean task.

For example: were we to ask door-to-door Watchtower Society missionaries
if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure you they
would answer in the affirmative. However, what you may not know is that
we and they would not be on the same page as the conversation would be
talking about two very different processes that go by the same name. In
other words: you would find yourself thrown off by semantic double speak.

The standard Christian understanding of Christ's resurrection is common
throughout the gospels; viz: Jesus Christ died as a physical human
being and he came back as a physical human being.

According to the Watchtower Society's resurrection theory; Christ didn't
physically rise from the dead at all; and here's why.

In Watch Tower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But the Society insists it is
impossible for someone to exist as a human being and a spirit being
simultaneously. So then, in order for Michael to come to the earth as a
human being, his existence as an angel had to be terminated.

However, according to the Society, Michael's life force survived his death;
and was transferred to Mary's womb where Michael was re-born as a human
being.

I am unaware at this time as to the Society's disposition of Michael's angel
corpse during the years on earth when he was existing as a human being.

But Michael's existence as a human being was only temporary. When God
"raised" Jesus from the dead, it was not actually Jesus who got raised from
the dead; it was Michael. Seeing as how Michael the angel had gone
completely out of existence when he became Jesus the human being; God
had to re-create Michael the angel from memory; in other words: in Society
theology, Michael the angel has undergone creation twice.

Bottom line: According to the Society; Jesus Christ's crucified body is still
dead; and his remains are squirreled away somewhere on earth in a
condition and a location known only to God.

What about Christ's alleged post resurrection appearances?

Well; according to the Society; those were not actually Christ. Those were
Michael disguised in a human avatar that was, in all respects, a perfect, fully
functioning knock-off of the real Christ.

==================================
I was aware that they believed Jesus and Michael were the same person but I didn't realise how complex their belief about it was. I feel even more strongly now that engaging in a debate with them is something to be left to people with a particular calling for it. Incidently the SDA have some belief about Michael as well. I understand that they are somehow connected with the JWs. I remember reading somewhere that Charles Russell was once a member of the SDA and its magazine editor at one point.
 
Jan 24, 2012
1,299
15
0
#5
As a former JW, the subject to debate with a witness is their Bible translation, the New World Translation. It is an incredibly corrupted version of the Bible that validates all of their views. Any Trinity passages have been edited out.

That being said, I think most JWs have an insane heart for God. I just don't believe they know Him, and Satan has used JW teachings to snuff out the spiritual connection that JWs would have with God otherwise.

I believe that if every JW converted to Christianity today, the effectiveness of the Body of Christ would increase 10-fold.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,708
3,650
113
#6
Nice list.
i welcome them in dialogue , give them enough noose and then I'll interject with my understanding. It lasts about two minutes and then it's "Well, it's been nice talking with you". I don't know, maybe it's my stuttering:p
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#7
when I encounter a j.w. I do what I think is best and it's worked for me.
I sic a Mormon on them.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,947
113
#8
About 10 years ago, I was taking theology in Seminary when the JW's came to my door. I was so excited to see them, so I could try out some of my new found knowledge. I ran and got my study Bible, my theology book and some other helpful things.

The lead woman saw the study Bible and asked me if it was "study" Bible. I said yes, and she got really antsy. She asked if they could put me on their "do not call list." I thought about how futile it was to argue with them, and said yes.

They never bothered me again. I've been in my new home for 9 months now. They came once really early on a Saturday morning, and I just didn't feel like dealing with them, because of the pain.

But I do have a lot more material than I had in those early days. Greek New Testament and Lexicons, same for Hebrew, and things I have found in the original languages which totally show the deity of Christ.

So I am waiting. And no, I won't take their literature. Unless they want to take my literature!
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#9
I do take there tracks and any literature they offer, I like to know what the enemy is up to.
 
T

tanach

Guest
#10
I do take there tracks and any literature they offer, I like to know what the enemy is up to.
If you want to know what they are up to without actually meeting one they have a website where you can download their
books for free. Enjoy??
 
Jan 24, 2012
1,299
15
0
#11
About 10 years ago, I was taking theology in Seminary when the JW's came to my door. I was so excited to see them, so I could try out some of my new found knowledge. I ran and got my study Bible, my theology book and some other helpful things.

The lead woman saw the study Bible and asked me if it was "study" Bible. I said yes, and she got really antsy. She asked if they could put me on their "do not call list." I thought about how futile it was to argue with them, and said yes.

They never bothered me again. I've been in my new home for 9 months now. They came once really early on a Saturday morning, and I just didn't feel like dealing with them, because of the pain.

But I do have a lot more material than I had in those early days. Greek New Testament and Lexicons, same for Hebrew, and things I have found in the original languages which totally show the deity of Christ.

So I am waiting. And no, I won't take their literature. Unless they want to take my literature!
If you do talk to them again, make sure to reference a lot of "original Greek and Hebrew" translations because they believe all other Bibles except the New World Translation to be corrupted.

While not by definition a "cult", Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, and Mormons all use cult methods to gather and keep followers. When I converted to Christianity, I couldn't believe that I spent 13 years believing what I believed as a Jehovah's Witness. The psychological warfare is pretty perfect.
 
Last edited:

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#12
-
As a former JW, the subject to debate with a witness is their Bible
translation, the New World Translation. It is an incredibly corrupted version
of the Bible that validates all of their views.
One day, a pair of Witnesses came to my door consisting of an experienced
worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the trainee to a line of
questioning that homed in on the Society's rather dishonest habit of
penciling in modifiers that go to reinforcing it's line of thinking. For example:

Below are some passages taken word-for-word from a version of the Watch
Tower Society's proprietary Bible. Watch for the word in brackets: it's very
important.

Col 1:16a . . By means of him all [other] things were created.

Col 1:16b . . All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

Col 1:17 . . Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all
[other] things were made to exist.

I pointed out to the trainee that the word "other" is in brackets to indicate
that it's not in the New Testament's Greek manuscripts. The Society's editors
took the liberty to pencil it into the English text; thus forcing Paul to
substantiate their doctrine that the Word of John 1:1-3 is a creature. If
perchance some of the Society's missionaries don't know that then all I can
say is they have a lot of catching up to do.

Anyway, I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passages sans the
bracketed word. Here they are with [other] removed.

"By means of him all things were created"

"All things have been created through him and for him"

"Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made to
exist"

The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to
discover that those passages reveal something quite different than what he
was led to believe.

=====================
 
P

popeye

Guest
#13
If you do talk to them again, make sure to reference a lot of "original Greek and Hebrew" translations because they believe all other Bibles except the New World Translation to be corrupted.

While not by definition a "cult", Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, and Mormons all use cult methods to gather and keep followers. When I converted to Christianity, I couldn't believe that I spent 13 years believing what I believed as a Jehovah's Witness. The psychological warfare is pretty perfect.
It is a cult big time

Cult= any religion or group that denies the fundamental truths of christianity. (namely the person and testimony of Jesus)
 
P

popeye

Guest
#14
They are no "Jehovah's witness"

I am. that is what I tell them.

Because Jehovah testifies of the son,while they testify of watchtower.
 
E

ember

Guest
#15
oh it's not all bad

I once hired a JW...and THAT is what got me started into studying the Bible

quite the experience...as a Christian, I did not know all the answers, so I dug in and have never looked back
 
Jan 24, 2012
1,299
15
0
#16
oh it's not all bad

I once hired a JW...and THAT is what got me started into studying the Bible

quite the experience...as a Christian, I did not know all the answers, so I dug in and have never looked back
Oh JWs are the bomb at Bible Study. Again, it's just the Bible and doctrine that they study that is apostate.
 
E

ember

Guest
#17
Oh JWs are the bomb at Bible Study. Again, it's just the Bible and doctrine that they study that is apostate.

their new world translation is unique and quite helpful if one cares to be a JW

they certainly are dedicated though

and yes it's definately aliens!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,947
113
#18
If you do talk to them again, make sure to reference a lot of "original Greek and Hebrew" translations because they believe all other Bibles except the New World Translation to be corrupted.

While not by definition a "cult", Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, and Mormons all use cult methods to gather and keep followers. When I converted to Christianity, I couldn't believe that I spent 13 years believing what I believed as a Jehovah's Witness. The psychological warfare is pretty perfect.

My Greek and Hebrew books are in my office, just a few steps from the front door. And the help sheets, like for John 1. I'm almost raring to go! I hadn't studied Greek and Hebrew the last time they were on my front door. I'm always so glad that it was required for my MDiv. I know some seminaries allow you to take just one language or none! That is not equipping a pastor!

I think it is wonderful people got challenged to dig into the Bible, and for Bushido getting out. God has an amazing way of reaching people! And if these people are properly shown what the original languages say, it will open their eyes to the Truth!
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#20
I hire j.ws..to pass out tracts from our church cause no one will do it.