Jehovah's Witnesses vs Old Time Religion

Word_Swordsman · Sep 10, 2015

While not choosing to hire JWs, we are now putting up with them more and more. They like the money, and are always very hard workers, grooming other JWs to be able to say the best things at a job interview, based on inside information they learn while working for you. They stick together closer than Siamese twins. I was told in no uncertain terms they are required to leave if Christian prayer is offered, or Christian doctrine discussed, and their payroll must continue until called back when we are done.

According to this local Kingdom Hall, their members are no longer allowed to hear anything religious from non-JWs. We had already noticed our home must be on their black list, as they put their Watch Towers in the door every week, but refuse to talk to us. They say come to the meeting, listen to the elders. There is no more living room discussion.

We've learned so far that whole families are caught up in the false cult, making it nearly impossible to leave it. They live in fear of the elders, forced to attend meetings. Nurses and others who can't make a meeting are require to open a link and watch it at work. Most employers allow it, afraid to touch the religion issues.

convallaria · Sep 11, 2015

Bushido8000 said:

If you do talk to them again, make sure to reference a lot of "original Greek and Hebrew" translations because they believe all other Bibles except the New World Translation to be corrupted.

While not by definition a "cult", Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, and Mormons all use cult methods to gather and keep followers. When I converted to Christianity, I couldn't believe that I spent 13 years believing what I believed as a Jehovah's Witness. The psychological warfare is pretty perfect.

They definitely are a cult.

breno785au · Sep 11, 2015

tanach said:

From my experience, I agree with that fully.

I wonder if this scripture can be applied to this? Same with mormons because they are so far off the mark with foundational doctrine..

2 John 1:9-10
9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ,does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,

WebersHome · Sep 12, 2015

-
†. 1Cor 15:50 . . This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
God’s kingdom,

That's a popular proof text for defending the theory that Jesus Christ does
not have a material body in heaven. But any honest reading of 1Cor 15:35-
-54 easily reveals that Paul is speaking of natural flesh and blood in contrast
to supernatural flesh and blood. In other words: flesh and blood that's
subject to death and putrefaction in contrast to flesh and blood that's
impervious to death and putrefaction. I don't know how the Society missed
that; but then, you know; maybe they didn't. I rather suspect that they have
reached a point where they can't turn back.

Anyway; the Watch Tower Society's resurrection doctrine is atypical. Theirs
is a re-creation resurrection because its theology supports the notion that
human life is entirely material; viz: when people die, they go completely out
of existence. So in order to get them back into existence, God has to re-
create them.

One of the Society's re-creation resurrections brings people back in a spirit
body; which is based upon a variety of passages like Matt 22:30 and
portions of the 15th chapter of first Corinthians.

I'm going to deliberately misquote 1Cor 15:44. Watch for the changes.

"It is sown a material body; it is raised a spirit body. There is a material
body, and there is a spirit body."

I did it like that to bring out the point that the koiné Greek word for
"spiritual" is ambiguous; viz: it doesn't always indicate a gaseous substance.
Below is a list of spiritual things that bear absolutely no resemblance
whatsoever to a gaseous substance.

Spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11)
Spiritual law (Rom 7:14)
Spiritual things (Rom 15:27)
Spiritual people (1Cor 2:15)
Spiritual nourishment (1Cor 10:3)
Spiritual water (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual rock (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)
Spiritual music (Eph 5:19)
Spiritual understanding (Col 1:9)
Spiritual housing (1Pet 2:5)
Spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)

So, with all that under our belts; I propose that we paraphrase 1Cor 15:44
to read as follows:

"It is sown a normal human body, it is raised up a superhuman body. There
is a natural body, and there is a supernatural body."

That works for me because words like "superhuman" and "supernatural"
imply a human body similar in some respects to the man of steel popularly
known at Comic Con as Superman. The heroic figure from the planet
Krypton isn't constructed of spirit; but rather; of some sort of indestructible
material. It looks like ordinary human tissue; but in his case, appearances
can be deceiving.

I sincerely believe that the spiritual body spoken of at 1Cor 15:44 is in no
way composed of spirit. Of what material it is composed I don't know; but I
do know at least three things about it. One is that the material is totally
unknown to modern physics, and two; it's living tissue, and the third is that
it's impervious to death and putrefaction.

All of the natural elements listed on the periodic table are those that God
created in the first chapter of Genesis. But those elements were custom
crafted for the current cosmos with all of its known and unknown forms of
life, matter, and energy. Heavenly elements are not of this cosmos. They are
unknown to modern physics; and it is those elements that God used to
construct Christ's glorious body. It resembles normal flesh and blood, but
that's where the resemblance ends.

The spiritual body is a glorious body.

†. Matt 16:28-17:2 . .Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are
standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man
coming in His kingdom. And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and
James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by
themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like
the sun, and His garments became as white as light." (Matt 16:28-17:2)

A glorious body is capable of dining upon ordinary foods.

†. Luke 22:15-16 . . I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you
before I suffer. For I tell you: I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in
the kingdom of God.

A glorious body is capable of imbibing ordinary beverages.

†. Matt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now
on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

A glorious body is a heavenly body.

†. Php 3:20-21 . . Our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a
savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him
to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that
they will be like his glorious body.

In other words: there is now two human races-- there is earth's race
pioneered by Adam, and there is heaven's race pioneered by Christ.

=====================

WebersHome · Sep 14, 2015

-
†. Col 1:15 . . He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all
creation

The Watch Tower Society has appropriated that verse as evidence that the
Word of John 1:1-3 was the first thing that God ever created. However, the
New Testament Greek word for "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos which
the Watchtower Society has construed to mean "created first" but prototokos
never means created first; no, it always means born first; viz: the eldest
offspring. The correct Greek word for created first is protoktistos.

The average door-to-door Watch Tower Society missionary doesn't know
this; and no doubt would care little for it anyway. To them; born first and
created first are one and the same.

FYI: Though the birth order of the child born first is chronologically set in
concrete; its advantages are transferable to a younger sibling; e.g. Esau and
Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben and
Joseph. (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1)

There was a time when David held the rank of God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27).
Anon, its advantages were transferred to one of David's sons. (Ps 110:1,
Dan 7:13-14, Mark 12:35-37, Php 2:9-11, Col 1:15)

OBJECTION: Jesus Christ being "born first," as stated at Colossians 1:15 is
evidence, from the scriptures, that Jesus Christ must have been created.
Why so? Because only created beings can be "born."

RESPONSE: "firstborn" is not restricted to birth-- it's primarily the title of a
position of superiority; and as such, is transferable.

Putting that in an Army chain of command context: there's the privates, the
sergeants, the officers, and ultimately the US President-- supreme
commander of all the armed forces. In rank, and in principle; Mr. Obama is
the firstborn of all the armed forces; but after the next election, the torch
may very well pass to Hillary Clinton and then she will be the firstborn of
all the armed forces.

But we're not done here yet. According to Col 1:16-17, God's son created all
things, and existed before all things: which means of course that God's son
not only created Adam but also that God's son preceded Adam. Well; it's
very easy to prove that Christ descended biologically from Adam. So the fact
of the matter is: God's son created Christ's biological father.

I suspect the trinity's opponents get fouled up with Christ's origin because
they are unable to discern the difference between the Word of John 1:1-3
and the flesh that the Word became in John 1:14.

=====================

kohelet · Sep 14, 2015

tanach said:

That's not quite right, Tanach. I wish all their literature were on their site. Unfortunately, the stuff that they've discovered can be used against them has been removed. That I would enjoy having.

kohelet · Sep 14, 2015

Angela53510 said:

Angela, I'm not sure you'll get anywhere with this approach. You are part of "Christendom" and suspect, regardless of what Greek and Hebrew you bring. The more effective one is to work away at the confidence they have in the organisation. This is what Randy Watters (is he the "Pete" you referred to, WebersHome?) recommends. There are questions they haven't considered, and he lists them. It really makes the JWs uneasy. The JWs will leave the discussion there, usually, but you've sown a seed. Who knows if the Lord will use it further down the track?

WebersHome · Sep 16, 2015

-
The Watch Tower Society alleges that Jesus Christ's resurrection was not a
resurrection as most people understand the process, but rather; Christ's
material body was left dead and he was re-created as a non material being:
specifically a spirit being. In other words; according to the Watch Tower
Society; Jesus Christ is no longer a man; he's an angel.

Of all the doctrines invented by the Watch Tower Society, I'd have to say
that is the most insidious because belief in Christ's resurrection is one of the
essential elements of the gospel that must be accepted if one is to have any
hope of escaping the wrath of God.

†. 1Cor 15:1-4 . . Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I
preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which
also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless
you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also
received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that
He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the
Scriptures

Paul goes on to say that if Christ did not revive, then Christians haven't a
prayer of escaping the wrath of God.

†. 1 Cor 15:17 . . If Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you
are still in your sins.

But we know of course that the Society's allegation has a fatal flaw; and it's
this:

†. John 2:19-22 . . Jesus said to them: Break down this temple, and in three
days I will raise it up. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in
forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days? But he was talking
about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the
dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed
the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.

You see, if Christ's material body had not been restored to life, his prediction
would be easily proven false.

Bottom line: The Society's version of Christ's resurrection is false; ergo: they
do not believe he actually rose from the dead; and I guess we all know what
that means.

Q: What and/or where are the scriptures about which Paul spoke?

A: There's at least two. One is the story of Jonah; which Christ appropriated
as a "sign" of his own resurrection. (Matt 12:40)

Another is in the book of Psalms at 16:8-10 (cf. Acts 2:22-36)

=====================

WebersHome · Sep 18, 2015

-
The Watchtower Society's form of theology is called monolatrism, which
basically alleges that all gods are actual deities; though not all deities are
deemed worthy of worship. This is not quite the same as polytheism where
numerous gods are all considered worthy of worship.

Monolatrism is distinguished from monotheism (asserts the existence of only
one god) and distinguished from henotheism— a religious system in which
the believer worships one god alone without denying that others may
worship different gods of equal value.

While traditional Christianity recognizes but two categories of gods; the
Watch Tower Society's theologians took the liberty to create a third category
of gods sandwiched between the true and the false called "mighty ones".
The mighty-one category is a sort of neutral zone where qualifying
personages exist as bona fide deities without violating the very first of the
Ten Commandments. For example:

"I myself have said: You are gods" (Ps 82:6)

The gods referred to in that statement are human beings; which everybody
knows are not true deities; so in order to avoid stigmatizing human beings
as false gods, the Society classifies them as mighty ones.

This gets kind of humorous when we plug "mighty one" into various
locations. For example:

"In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was a mighty one." (John 1:1)

And another.

"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten mighty one who is in
the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him." (John
1:18)

The neutral zone was an invention of necessity. In other words: without it,
the Society would be forced to classify the Word and the only-begotten as
false gods seeing as how John 17:3, and a host of other passages, testify
that there is only one true god.

=====================

WebersHome · Sep 20, 2015

-
†. Jer 10:10 . . Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living god

Yhvh is called "the living god" something like fifteen times in the Old
Testament, and fifteen more times in the New Testament.

I'm unaware of any other gods in the whole Bible labeled living gods.
Because of that; I think it safe to conclude that no other god is a living god;
viz: all other gods are lifeless gods; including the gods in Psalm 82 of whom
it is said "You are gods". And if the Word of John 1:1 is merely another god,
then he too is a lifeless god; along with the only-begotten god of John 1:18.
If that's true, then it would be legitimate to paraphrase John 1:1 like this:

"In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with the living God, and
the Word was a lifeless god."

And John 1:18 like this:

"No man has seen the living God at any time; the only-begotten lifeless god,
who is in the bosom position with the Father, is the one that has explained
him."

Just about everybody on both sides of the aisle agrees that the Word is a
god. The trick is: the Word isn't like the other gods; no, he's a living god.

†. John 5:26 . . For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted
also to the Son to have life in himself.

When God granted the Son to have life in himself just as the Father has life
in Himself, things got a bit complicated; viz: unless Jehovah and the Word are
one and the same god; then there is now one too many living gods out
there.

=====================

WebersHome · Sep 22, 2015

-
†. Col 1:15 . . He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all
creation

The Watch Tower Society has appropriated that verse as evidence that the
Word of John 1:1-3 was the first thing that God ever created. However, the
New Testament Greek word for "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos which
the Watchtower Society has construed to mean "created first" but prototokos
never means created first; no, it always means born first; viz: the eldest
offspring. The correct Greek word for created first is protoktistos.

The average door-to-door Watch Tower Society missionary doesn't know
this; and no doubt would care little for it anyway. To them; born first and
created first are one and the same.

FYI: Though the birth order of the child born first is chronologically set in
concrete; its advantages are transferable to a younger sibling; e.g. Esau and
Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben and
Joseph. (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1)

There was a time when David held the rank of God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27).
Anon, its advantages were transferred to one of David's sons. (Ps 110:1,
Dan 7:13-14, Mark 12:35-37, Php 2:9-11, Col 1:15)

OBJECTION: Jesus Christ being "born first," as stated at Colossians 1:15 is
evidence, from the scriptures, that Jesus Christ must have been created.
Why so? Because only created beings can be "born."

RESPONSE: The objector encumbered themselves with a humanistic axiom
that very effectively paralyzed their thinking; viz: apparently it had not yet
occurred to them that it just might be possible that God is able to reproduce.

However, "firstborn" is not restricted to birth-- it's primarily the title of a
position of superiority; and as such, is transferable.

Putting that in an Army chain of command context: there's the privates, the
sergeants, the officers, and ultimately the US President-- supreme
commander of all the armed forces. In rank, and in principle; Mr. Obama is
the firstborn of all the armed forces; but after the next election, the torch
may very well pass to Hillary Clinton and then she will be the firstborn of all
the armed forces.

But we're not done here yet. According to Col 1:16-17, God's son created all
things, and existed before all things: which means of course that God's son
not only created Adam but also that God's son preceded Adam. Well; it's
very easy to prove that Christ descended biologically from Adam. So the fact
of the matter is: God's son created Christ's biological progenitor.

I suspect the trinity's opponents get fouled up with Christ's origin because
they are unable to discern the difference between the Word of John 1:1-3
and the flesh that the Word became in John 1:14.

=====================

popeye · Sep 24, 2015

WebersHome said:

-
†. Col 1:15 . . He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all
creation

The Watch Tower Society has appropriated that verse as evidence that the
Word of John 1:1-3 was the first thing that God ever created. However, the
New Testament Greek word for "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos which
the Watchtower Society has construed to mean "created first" but prototokos
never means created first; no, it always means born first; viz: the eldest
offspring. The correct Greek word for created first is protoktistos.

The average door-to-door Watch Tower Society missionary doesn't know
this; and no doubt would care little for it anyway. To them; born first and
created first are one and the same.

FYI: Though the birth order of the child born first is chronologically set in
concrete; its advantages are transferable to a younger sibling; e.g. Esau and
Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben and
Joseph. (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1)

There was a time when David held the rank of God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27).
Anon, its advantages were transferred to one of David's sons. (Ps 110:1,
Dan 7:13-14, Mark 12:35-37, Php 2:9-11, Col 1:15)

OBJECTION: Jesus Christ being "born first," as stated at Colossians 1:15 is
evidence, from the scriptures, that Jesus Christ must have been created.
Why so? Because only created beings can be "born."

RESPONSE: The objector encumbered themselves with a humanistic axiom
that very effectively paralyzed their thinking; viz: apparently it had not yet
occurred to them that it just might be possible that God is able to reproduce.

However, "firstborn" is not restricted to birth-- it's primarily the title of a
position of superiority; and as such, is transferable.

Putting that in an Army chain of command context: there's the privates, the
sergeants, the officers, and ultimately the US President-- supreme
commander of all the armed forces. In rank, and in principle; Mr. Obama is
the firstborn of all the armed forces; but after the next election, the torch
may very well pass to Hillary Clinton and then she will be the firstborn of all
the armed forces.

But we're not done here yet. According to Col 1:16-17, God's son created all
things, and existed before all things: which means of course that God's son
not only created Adam but also that God's son preceded Adam. Well; it's
very easy to prove that Christ descended biologically from Adam. So the fact
of the matter is: God's son created Christ's biological progenitor.

I suspect the trinity's opponents get fouled up with Christ's origin because
they are unable to discern the difference between the Word of John 1:1-3
and the flesh that the Word became in John 1:14.

=====================

Nice job sir.
I would add,concerning firstborn/created being,that man CREATES a statue,but a son is BEGOTTEN....not created

popeye · Sep 24, 2015

kohelet said:

They were at my house yesterday. I was polite (a miracle in itself)

I asked them "are you from the baptist church ? (just to put them off their game)

I already knew the answer ....."Uh,no we are Jehovah's witness"

"so am I" I told them

Oh really?

"Yes. I testify of the son just like Jehovah does. That MAKES ME his witness"

They stared back ,their brains trying to process my statement.

Then I said "you know in Hebrews where Jehovah said "thy throne o God is forever and ever?....you see,it pleases the father to exalt the son,even above himself. That is what Jehovah does"

Then the party poopers said they were looking for hispanics to talk to and began speaking spanish at which time I told them I was hispanic (which I am not,but speak the lingo fairly well),and said "No sir this neighborhood is all gringo.You might as well give up on any converts.

Guess what?
They did not even offer their stupid propaganda pamphlet to me

Word_Swordsman · Sep 24, 2015

popeye said:

They will have a lesson soon on how to respond to your words, probably already. The usual will be to put you on their "ignore list", which has apparently already happened. From then on the tactic is to avoid putting their "babes" in harms way, only sent to put the literature in your door without ringing the door bell. Yet, our dog detects them so early a Sunday morning, awaking us to her rare insane bark at something that ought not to be.

Their favorite target is kind and gentle elderly folks that will let most anyone have their attention. Their agenda is to get that estate willed to the JW, it being unnecessary to notify their former family heirs who might thwart Jehovah's will for it. The estate attorney will arrive within a few hours, no fees involved. "Just sign here" to please Jehovah. The Mormons do the same. like the RCC has done quite so famously. The idea is to imitate success. That's good until it violates morality.

popeye · Sep 24, 2015

Word_Swordsman said:

They will have a lesson soon on how to respond to your words, probably already. The usual will be to put you on their "ignore list", which has apparently already happened. From then on the tactic is to avoid putting their "babes" in harms way, only sent to put the literature in your door without ringing the door bell. Yet, our dog detects them so early a Sunday morning, awaking us to her rare insane bark at something that ought not to be.

Their favorite target is kind and gentle elderly folks that will let most anyone have their attention. Their agenda is to get that estate willed to the JW, it being unnecessary to notify their former family heirs who might thwart Jehovah's will for it. The estate attorney will arrive within a few hours, no fees involved. "Just sign here" to please Jehovah. The Mormons do the same. like the RCC has done quite so famously. The idea is to imitate success. That's good until it violates morality.

I did not know they preyed on the elderly that way.
Good to know that.
But if you think about it,all they are are puppets and salesmen,so it does make sense

WebersHome · Sep 24, 2015

-
One day, a pair of Witnesses came to my door consisting of an experienced
worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the trainee to a line of
questioning that homed in on the Society's rather dishonest habit of
penciling in modifiers that go to reinforcing it's line of thinking. For example:

Below are some passages taken word-for-word from a version of the Watch
Tower Society's proprietary Bible. Watch for the word in brackets: it's very
important.

Col 1:16a . . By means of him all [other] things were created.

Col 1:16b . . All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

Col 1:17 . . Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all
[other] things were made to exist.

I pointed out to the trainee that the word "other" is in brackets to indicate
that it's not in the New Testament's Greek manuscripts. I then proceeded to
have the trainee read the passages sans the bracketed word. Here they are
with [other] removed.

"By means of him all things were created"

"All things have been created through him and for him"

"Also, he is before all things and by means of him all things were made to
exist"

The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to
discover that those passages reveal something quite different than what he
was led to believe.

The Watch Tower Society's editors took the liberty to pencil "other" into its
proprietary translation of the Greek manuscripts to support its assertion that
the Word of John 1:1-3 is a created being who, after God created him, was
assigned the task of creating everything else, including, but not limited to,
the current cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy. If
perchance some of the Society's missionaries don't know that then all I can
say is they have a lot of catching up to do.

Now; as to tampering with Paul's teachings; this is what Peter has to say
about that.

†. 2Pet 3:15-16 . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as
salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given
him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all his
letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the
untaught and unsteady are twisting, as they do also the rest of the
Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Untaught people are oftentimes self-taught; and were modern Witnesses to
check into ol' Charles T. Russell's rather ignoble past; they'd find that "self
taught" pretty much describes the origin of the Society's theology.

Anyway, according to Peter; people who force Paul's letters to mean things
they don't say in writing have actually put a gun to their heads, so to speak,
and don't know it.

=====================

WebersHome · Sep 26, 2015

-
Q: One translation of John 1:18 says that Jesus is the only-begotten god;
while another translation of John 1:18 says Jesus is the only-begotten son.
Which translation is correct?

A: Either one will do because, biologically speaking, they're both saying the
very same thing. But for clarity's sake; let's assume that "only-begotten
god" is correct. What are the ramifications of that?

Well; according to John 17:3 it suggests that the only true god's offspring is
the only true god; otherwise he'd be a false god; which is about as possible
as my offspring being a false human. In other words; like always begets like.
If the only true god were to reproduce, His offspring would be more of His
own kind just as when I reproduce, my offspring is more of my own kind.
Get my drift?

John 1:18 implies that when the only true god begot a son, He begot more
of Himself; viz: He begot a god that's of the species the only true god. It's
either that or the only true god begot not a species of god of His own kind;
but a species of god of another kind; which would be like me begetting not a
species of human of my own kind, but a species of human of an alien kind.

I watched an educational series on NetFlix in September of 2014 called "The
Inexplicable Universe: Unsolved Mysteries" hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson
Ph.D. director of the Hayden Planetarium. Mr. Tyson said, in so many words;
that in the study of Physics, one must sometimes abandon sense and accept
discoveries as they are no matter how contrary to logic they may seem.

The NASA teams that sent Pioneers, Voyagers and Mariners out to explore
the solar system came to the very same conclusion: they learned to
abandon their logical expectations and instead expect the unexpected; and
they encountered plenty.

In the field of Christianity, as in the fields of Physics and planetary
exploration, faith believes what's revealed to it rather than only what makes
sense to it. I readily admit that the only true god multiplying to produce
another of Himself also called the only true god, makes no sense
whatsoever. But just as science admits to many unsolved mysteries; so does
Christianity. And there's no shame in that. The shame is in pretending to
have complete understanding of a supernatural religion that by its very
nature defies reasoning and common sense.

=====================

WebersHome · Sep 28, 2015

-
The Watch Tower Society insists that human life is entirely physical-- people
cease to exist when their bodies expire. The Society substantiates its
doctrine with some things that Solomon wrote in the book of Ecclesiastes.

Traditional Christianity insists that human life is more than physical-- people
continue to exist beyond the demise of their bodies. Traditional Christianity
substantiates its doctrine with some things that Jesus Christ spoke in the
New Testament.

Solomon was a very wise man and the brightest intellectual of his day. But
Christ claimed that his wisdom is superior to Solomon's.

†. Luke 11:31 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment
with the men of this generation and will condemn them; because she came
from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look!
Something more than Solomon is here.

Solomon's understanding was limited, but Christ's is exceedingly vast.

†. Col 2:3 . . In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Traditional Christianity casts its vote for Christ primarily because it believes
that no man could possibly know more about the afterlife than he; and also
because it is God's edict that people listen to His son.

†. Matt 17:5 . . While Peter was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud
overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is My
beloved son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to him.

No doubt Solomon was inspired to put his world view in writing; but Christ
was more than inspired to say the things he spoke; the things he spoke
came directly from God.

†. John 3:34-35 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words; for God's
Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

†. John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

†. John 8:28 . . I speak these things as the Father taught me.

†. John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

†. John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

In other words; people who take sides with Solomon against Jesus Christ
have taken sides against God; and the repercussions of their choice are
disastrous to say the least.

†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in His son is not condemned, but whoever
disbelieves stands condemned already

†. John 3:36 . . He that disbelieves the Son shall not see life; but the wrath
of God abides on him.

=====================

ukok102nak · Sep 28, 2015

when and where we can find that jesuschrist told to his disciples the name of his father?
as we knew, christ teached us how to pray
and it goes something like this " our father . ...

WebersHome · Sep 30, 2015

-
†. 2Tim 3:16 . . All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching,
for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness

As every competent Bible student knows: though all scripture is inspired by
God, not all scripture is true. For example:

"At this the serpent said to the woman: You positively will not die." (Gen
3:4)

The serpent's statement is on record due to the inspiration of God: but the
serpent's statement is false.

Here's another:

"But as for eating of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden,
God has said: You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you
do not die." (Gen 3:3)

Though Eve's statement is in the record due to the inspiration of God, her
statement is not entirely true. God didn't say they must not touch the fruit.

Ecclesiastes is in the record due to the inspiration of God: and though it
contains many truisms, not all that it contains is true. Solomon (if that's who
actually wrote it) didn't record his observations from the perspective of a
spiritual man who's privy to special knowledge beyond the scope of empirical
evidence and human experience: but rather, he recorded his observations
from the perspective of a man under the sun: viz: a worldly intellectual
whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see going on
around him in the physical rather than what he cannot see going on around
him in the non-physical-- and that's pretty much why it's so easy to find
material in Ecclesiastes contrary to the doctrines of traditional Christianity.

Ecclesiastes is popular with agnostics and atheists because it agrees, to a
very large extent, with their own secular philosophies: viz: Solomon's
observations are primarily an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the
earth rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven.

Solomon spoke of death; but there's no textual evidence in the book of
Ecclesiastes indicating that he had ever seen beyond death for himself to
know what he was talking about. In contrast, there is an abundance of
textual evidence indicating that Jesus Christ not only spoke of death, but he
had seen beyond death for himself to know what he was talking about. (e.g.
John 3:13, John 3:31-32, John 6:33, John 6:38, and 1John 1:1-3)

So in my estimation, Christ's eye-witness reports carry far more weight than
Solomon's opinions. Solomon's perspective was pretty much limited to what
he could see for himself; while the traditional Christian perspective is
enhanced by things that Christ can see for himself.

Q: So then, in what way is Ecclesiastes beneficial for teaching, for reproving,
for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness?

A: It's very valuable for showing that life sans religion is meaningless.
Humankind needs to believe in something higher than itself just to make
sense of why people exist at all.

Nobel Prize winner, author of several best-selling books, and recipient of at
least a dozen honorary degrees; physicist Steven Weinberg (who views
religion as an enemy of science), in his book "The First Three Minutes"
wrote: The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it seems
pointless. But if there is no solace in the fruits of our research, there is at
least some consolation in the research itself . . . the effort to understand the
universe is one of the very few things that lifts human life a little above the
level of a farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy.

Well of course Mr. Weinberg feels that way. How else could a thinking man
feel when he believes in nothing higher than himself?

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