Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

[PeterJens]

Total inability is a belief that who we are means we are sinners to the day we die.
We can never walk righteously or be acceptable to God, only if God looks at us through Christs righteousness.

Now the bible is unclear about what this is and what righteousness and sin are completely.
As we walk with Christ our views and focus change, as we become more like Him.

For some theologians sex is what defines total inability and the sexual act is sinful.

Now my approach is the opposite way round. What can be achieved in life?

Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Rev 22:10-11

We can be "holy"

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Matt 19:21

We can be "perfect"

Some say you cannot be blameless as to the law, yet Paul, Moses, Abraham were.

On this brief point, it appears we can achieve walking in righteousness and being righteous in Christ.
If this is so total inability must be wrong.

Looking at church history, the early church did not believe in total inability, but it came to the church through the gnostics.

So the next question is really how do we become so we are righteous?

Do you agree?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Total inability is a belief that who we are means we are sinners to the day we die.
We can never walk righteously or be acceptable to God, only if God looks at us through Christs righteousness.

Now the bible is unclear about what this is and what righteousness and sin are completely.
As we walk with Christ our views and focus change, as we become more like Him.

For some theologians sex is what defines total inability and the sexual act is sinful.

Now my approach is the opposite way round. What can be achieved in life?

Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Rev 22:10-11

We can be "holy"

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Matt 19:21

We can be "perfect"

Some say you cannot be blameless as to the law, yet Paul, Moses, Abraham were.

On this brief point, it appears we can achieve walking in righteousness and being righteous in Christ.
If this is so total inability must be wrong.

Looking at church history, the early church did not believe in total inability, but it came to the church through the gnostics.

So the next question is really how do we become so we are righteous?

Do you agree?

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Romans 4:13
For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 9:31
but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 but Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[SUP][b][/SUP] (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[SUP][e][/SUP] (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
[SUP]9 [/SUP]that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [SUP]
11 [/SUP]For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[SUP][f][/SUP]
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”[SUP][g][/SUP]

Unbelievers are seen as darkness and unrighteous, where as believers are seen as light and rightous..


2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

No law can make us righteous. Not just the law of moses.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

Philippians 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This subject goes very deep. I think it underlies much of the aberration that we see in western Christianity.

 

[Willie-T]

I found the very straightforward and simple answer in the verse shown in my Signature.

 

[Grace777x70]

I found the very straightforward and simple answer in the verse shown in my Signature.

I agree Willie!..believing the gospel and receiving the gift of righteousness is really simple.

The subject does get very deep and complicated when one is trying to establish their own righteousness and then to maintain that by what they do and thus pervert the true gospel of the grace of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

We seem to have so many "unbelieving believers" around trying to add onto what Christ has already done for us.

 

[Ariel82]

Will come back after kids go to bed...just wanted to say hi Peter.

 

[PeterJens]

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Rom 3:21-22

What Paul is saying is you can be blameless under the law, but this does not make you righteous or acceptable to God.
Acceptable to God comes through faith.

The mistake that is being made is to say that being blameless is impossible, and it is ok for christians to ignore morality. Morality is like a super-spiritual extra, like to not be a carnal christian, or they would say not walking in the flesh but the
Spirit.

Paul as far as the law went said this

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
Phil 3:4-6

You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 3:13

Paul is saying he lived a holy, righteous, blameless life among the believers.

This does not sound like the self condemnation I hear being preached by the hyper-grace group.

Paul did not say you cannot keep the law, he just said it does not make you righteous or acceptable. It is faith that does this.

I hope this answers the question, we are able to walk in righteousness.

 

[John146]

Righteousness under the law was self righteousness through obedience. Righteousness under the New Testament is the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. There is a difference. The righteousness afforded under the law could never account for the payment of sin. It could, however, keep one safe from God's wrath in Abraham's bosom until sin was paid for by the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

Let me make a small point. Walking righteously is not a gift. If it was a gift, every christian would be righteous from day one in how they behaved which is simply not true.

It is said to cause a distraction and to deny the real problem, how do we gain communion with the Father like Jesus had on earth.

Many months ago I said the real issue is about defining what we are as people, what we are in Christ and how we progress through discipleship. What is different in our society is we are unbelievably spoilt and immature. Very few have had serious trauma or grief. Most play games in life and get by, running away from problems and not having many friends or good contacts.

Little wonder the sermon on the mount sounds so alien and impossible. Loving your enemies? Do not know what loving my own family, friends or even myself. Cynicism, loneliness, hatred, bitterness and distrust are the biggest emotional feelings.

Doing anything good for anyone else is just a pain, an obligation, something to avoid and deny.

Obedience and letting Jesus's love work in our hearts through understanding and contemplating the cross in our hearts.
Spending time 3 times a day, morning, lunch and night with Christ. Feeding our spirits with His word. This is the bread of life. Jesus is not joking. His words are eternal.

 

[Grace777x70]

Righteousness under the law was self righteousness through obedience. Righteousness under the New Testament is the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. There is a difference. The righteousness afforded under the law could never account for the payment of sin. It could, however, keep one safe from God's wrath in Abraham's bosom until sin was paid for by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen..it is possible to be "blameless" according to the law but be totally unrighteous when it comes to the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

Righteousness under the law was self righteousness through obedience. Righteousness under the New Testament is the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. There is a difference. The righteousness afforded under the law could never account for the payment of sin. It could, however, keep one safe from God's wrath in Abraham's bosom until sin was paid for by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hi John.

My thoughts have be slightly different. Righteousness under the law is just law keeping. It leads to a tick box.
Righteousness by faith is about relationship, communion, giving and receiving. So it was possible throughout time, the law simply marked the indicators of where someone was with God.

The law expressed sacrifices and dealing with sin through priests and ceremonies. In christ these have become spiritual, and centred around prayer and commitment. The failure of the sacrifices is they had to be repeated, and they were a show of relationship but not its spiritual fulfillment. After the cross, love had the healing symbol that could get to our hearts and unlock the love and heal the pain we all carry.

It is that dynamic that only a few saw before the cross, but now every believer can understand after the cross. Gods nature did not change, but the cross demonstrated who He really is and how substantial His promises really are.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here's an example IMO of how the belief in total inability has affected the church: the belief that it is impossible to do GOD's will.

 

[PeterJens]

Totally unrighteous - this is a very difficult phrase. It implies evil where there is none.

Jesus talks about love from the heart. It is this love that was missing in the pharisees, which brought everything together. The principles of life were good, but they lived them with empty hearts.

Once you start condemning and devaluing righteous behaviour you start to say sin does not matter. This is why hyper-grace fails so badly, because it wants to condemn people when their failure is to not let love in. Love will sort out the hypocracy, the spiritual blindness, the empty words, the lack of reality. And worst of all obedience becomes evil as legalism, rather than the measure of the glorious work of Christ in a believers heart.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a massive difference between one doing God's will by their own flesh and self-effort or by the fruit of an exchanged life in Christ where it is His life being manifested.

Abraham did they very same thing by trying to fulfill the words of God and he created an Ishmael. God doesn't recognize things done by self-effort in the flesh. God said to "Take your son, your only son.."

Works-based salvationists have a very hard time with this distinction above so when people say - it's impossible to do the law - it throws them off because they need to "maintain" their righteousness.

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

The real Christian life is trusting that the Lord in them will be their life and guide and the good works in them will originate from the Lord inside of them.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

This is "the" stumbling block for works-based D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindsets.

 

[B1Davanda]

Please help.....
Please read entry #264 in the
Re: Whats the deal with Catholics? thread ...
for info regarding lurker(s) signing up in
ALL CAPITALS USER NAMES.

There's at least 10 now

(And the latest just came in as
ONYOURKNEESYOUHEATHEN)

Does anyone know who can stop this?

 

[PaulMack]

Its not impossible to do the Will of the Father. We do it by walking with Jesus.

In the beginning before God created anything, He knew we will sin. He knew we on our own will never seek Him out.

God put a plan in motion that Jesus would bare our sins, that the Blood of Jesus will cleanse us of all our sins. Every time God looks at us He see's His Son Jesus.

This is how we are Holy and Blameless in the eyes of God. Its not because of anything we have done, its because of what His Son has done!

 

[FreeNChrist]

"Any effort to do something for God which comes from our own resources, ability, knowledge, etc. is flesh. Flesh can only counterfeit the real thing. The way to enjoy and express Christ is to allow Him to live His life through us. As we rest in Him, He will express His character and His ministry through us. When we struggle to live the Christian life, we stop the flow of Christ's life and begin to live after the resources of our own flesh. As we abide in Him we rest and work at the same time! We rest inwardly while He works outwardly through us. This is God's designed method of Christian service. Anything else is empty religious ritual, regardless of how successful or spiritual it may appear."

- Steve McVey

 

[Grace777x70]

"Any effort to do something for God which comes from our own resources, ability, knowledge, etc. is flesh. Flesh can only counterfeit the real thing. The way to enjoy and express Christ is to allow Him to live His life through us. As we rest in Him, He will express His character and His ministry through us. When we struggle to live the Christian life, we stop the flow of Christ's life and begin to live after the resources of our own flesh. As we abide in Him we rest and work at the same time! We rest inwardly while He works outwardly through us. This is God's designed method of Christian service. Anything else is empty religious ritual, regardless of how successful or spiritual it may appear."

- Steve McVey

Now that is going to hurt us that are relying on us that feel we need to "maintain" our own righteousness. I love that quote as it reveals the true nature of the "religious flesh". - it has the "appearance" of godliness but denies the power.

There is good flesh and bad flesh - but it's still flesh. God said "no flesh shall glory in My presence"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Totally unrighteous - this is a very difficult phrase. It implies evil where there is none.

Jesus talks about love from the heart. It is this love that was missing in the pharisees, which brought everything together. The principles of life were good, but they lived them with empty hearts.

Once you start condemning and devaluing righteous behaviour you start to say sin does not matter. This is why hyper-grace fails so badly, because it wants to condemn people when their failure is to not let love in. Love will sort out the hypocracy, the spiritual blindness, the empty words, the lack of reality. And worst of all obedience becomes evil as legalism, rather than the measure of the glorious work of Christ in a believers heart.

God said all sin is evil, james said if we break the least of the law we are guilty of all,

you just gave people a reason to excuse sin saying some sin is ok and not evil!

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe this is all a trick question.

God is saying without me you will fall into sin and die. Sin is the proof of the effect of lack of communion.
The law stands as the measuring rod, but without full communion, love working in your heart you get no where.

So though people could live blamelessly under the law, it did not make them in communion with God, and they would inevitably sin, as Paul did persecuting christians. It appeared just to him assuming they where commiting blasphemy, but if Christ was God, they are righteous and he was commiting murder and sin.

So even the law needs a right context. Nothing is absolute, except when in reference to the creator.

Some have said I claim not to be wrong or limited etc. Compared to God and ultimates I am nothing, I am a man undone, a mere beginner in the realms of life. But I stick to what I know until I have learnt something more.

I can do no other, that is the definition of revelation and truth. I did not start on cc knowing as much as I do now. I have changed and grown, but for some that is just wrong, while others rejoice. But that is spiritual reality and the way of the Lord. We all have friends and enemies, because Jesus likewise had both and warned us of this reality of following Him.

So amen, if you suffer for righteousness sake.

It sounds like no one hear holds to total inability, unless ofcourse they are hiding their belief, to later come out and say I am lying, and how dare I say what they believe etc. I am interested in why and how people believe. If you do believe in total inability, are you prepared to debate it so we can learn. I know it will be illuminating, but dare you put your faith on the line?