Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

[Ariel82]

I was all set to like your comment cuz I totally agreed until this statement "

This does not sound like the self condemnation I hear being preached by the hyper-grace group"

Now why bother talking, when it's evident no one really listens?

Or maybe the posts times are weird...forums can be so confusing.

 

[crossnote]

I was all set to like your comment cuz I totally agreed until this statement "

This does not sound like the self condemnation I hear being preached by the hyper-grace group"

Now why bother talking, when it's evident no one really listens?

Or maybe the posts times are weird...forums can be so confusing.

...and full of strawmen to erect and then beat down LOL

 

[Ariel82]

...and full of strawmen to erect and then beat down LOL

Personally I prefer a bonfire.

Finally got to the Natural Science closer than,the,zoo at 2:30pm..after waiting since 9am....then we left at 3:45 cuz the kids were SOOO hungry...

Sigh...Lord are you trying to teach me patience?

Thank you for the hour of fun we got and the many blessings of spending time with loved ones despite the frustration.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Personally I prefer a bonfire.

Finally got to the Natural Science closer than,the,zoo at 2:30pm..after waiting since 9am....then we left at 3:45 cuz the kids were SOOO hungry...

Sigh...Lord are you trying to teach me patience?

Thank you for the hour of fun we got and the many blessings of spending time with loved ones despite the frustration.

Good way to praise God and see the possitive and not the negative oh if we could all learn how to show gratitude instead of being negatrons, how much better representatives of Christ we would be.

 

[crossnote]

Personally I prefer a bonfire.

Finally got to the Natural Science closer than,the,zoo at 2:30pm..after waiting since 9am....then we left at 3:45 cuz the kids were SOOO hungry...

Sigh...Lord are you trying to teach me patience?

Thank you for the hour of fun we got and the many blessings of spending time with loved ones despite the frustration.

Ahh, real life!!

 

[Ariel82]

Please help.....
Please read entry #264 in the
Re: Whats the deal with Catholics? thread ...
for info regarding lurker(s) signing up in
ALL CAPITALS USER NAMES.

There's at least 10 now

(And the latest just came in as
ONYOURKNEESYOUHEATHEN)

Does anyone know who can stop this?

They are working on it and ask for your patience..the trolls found a loop hole and admins are writing code to fix it.

 

[Grace777x70]

They are working on it and ask for your patience..the trolls found a loop hole and admins are writing code to fix it.

They came up with some...Ahhhh....creative names...

 

[Ariel82]

Hi John.

My thoughts have be slightly different. Righteousness under the law is just law keeping. It leads to a tick box.
Righteousness by faith is about relationship, communion, giving and receiving. So it was possible throughout time, the law simply marked the indicators of where someone was with God.

The law expressed sacrifices and dealing with sin through priests and ceremonies. In christ these have become spiritual, and centred around prayer and commitment. The failure of the sacrifices is they had to be repeated, and they were a show of relationship but not its spiritual fulfillment. After the cross, love had the healing symbol that could get to our hearts and unlock the love and heal the pain we all carry.

It is that dynamic that only a few saw before the cross, but now every believer can understand after the cross. Gods nature did not change, but the cross demonstrated who He really is and how substantial His promises really are.

I totally agree with this.

 

[Ariel82]

They came up with some...Ahhhh....creative names...

As Lynn said 6th grade summer camp.

Just glad folks are NOT taking the bait.

 

[PeterJens]

This does not sound like the self condemnation I hear being preached by the hyper-grace group"

There appears to be a line of thought that goes, Gods law is just there to make us know we are sinners.
It humbles us but has no other purpose.

To achieve this you have to get hyper legalistic, and raise the idea of what is sin to the level of everything regarding yourself is sinful.

A common them talking to people was self condemnation, how many times each day they sinned.
The term living in the flesh had come to mean anything that they did for themselves.
So people where serving the Lord but it was carnal because it served their pride or self worth or something else.

Rather than focusing on loving people, seeing need and meeting it, everything was spent analysing why things were being done.

The claim was we are not sin conscious, yet these believers always could tell you all the sins they did that day, and repeated. So rather than being free from condemnation they lived it, and felt it was normal.

This is just not my experience. This is why I said what I said

 

[Ariel82]

Ahhh your quotes are off Peter..,

My point is stop making blanket statements about what folks believe...for example you could have said
.

 

[Ariel82]

There appears to be a line of thought that goes, Gods law is just there to make us know we are sinners.
It humbles us but has no other purpose.

Then see who agrees and disagrees.

 

[Ariel82]

I agree God's law humbles us but it also serves as warning sign post about the pits of suffering that taking the path of sin will lead you into.......


Adultery will lead to broken marriage and distrust.
Greed, sloth and gluttony will lead to obesity and many health problems associated with that..


Note (to avoid offending folks unintentionally) the inverse is NOT true, not all divorce is due to adultery and not all obese people are gluttonous...

But sin often leads to negative things, but not always...

Satan likes his super stars too, until they are old and no longer attract the masses to his deceptions.

 

[PeterJens]

Ahhh your quotes are off Peter..,

My point is stop making blanket statements about what folks believe...for example you could have said
.

My reason for making these observations is just they were how people reacted in discussions.
I use language to summarise a position or another way of describing it.
The problem is it is an abstract with reference to a particular way of talking about theology.
Believe it or not, people are doing this about everyone all the time.

So it will not help just saying you cannot do this, because that is what we all do.
It is why saying I was not OSAS means I must be a legalist. I was told this enough times.

There are those who think if you are OSAS you are a heretic. I tend to use these descriptions
as markers, indicators of language, talking points. They are not real, they are created by
people to give a sense of certainty. Once you begin to understand this, they become helpful
and not being judgemental or condemnatory etc. People change their beliefs over time and
experience, but if they do not have tools to understand and converse they tend to stay stuck.

Hope you see where I am coming from, I am not saying any individual believes this, it is just
a construct based on what has been said, to help describe it.

 

[Ariel82]

I get you Peter and that's why I am converse with you, but it's better to just speak simply than use those terms...folks think you are being arrogant if you use big words and since they don't understand what you are saying.....they conclude you are making fun of them because you make them feel stupid which makes them angry...

Just say in..

 

[Ariel82]

Before someone jumps me for my posts I freely admit if I did not spend hours in research I would have no clue what OSAS and other terms meant and would be one of the clueless masses who would rather read her Bible than debate grace versus law, hyper grace, word of faith, etc.

So it's not a matter of intelligence but of time spent in research and study of such topics.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Total inability is a belief that who we are means we are sinners to the day we die.
We can never walk righteously or be acceptable to God, only if God looks at us through Christs righteousness.

Now the bible is unclear about what this is and what righteousness and sin are completely.
As we walk with Christ our views and focus change, as we become more like Him.

For some theologians sex is what defines total inability and the sexual act is sinful.

Now my approach is the opposite way round. What can be achieved in life?

Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Rev 22:10-11

We can be "holy"

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Matt 19:21

We can be "perfect"

Some say you cannot be blameless as to the law, yet Paul, Moses, Abraham were.

On this brief point, it appears we can achieve walking in righteousness and being righteous in Christ.
If this is so total inability must be wrong.

Looking at church history, the early church did not believe in total inability, but it came to the church through the gnostics.

So the next question is really how do we become so we are righteous?

Do you agree?

I understand where your mind is in this peter, because my mind went the same way some time ago. I saw that something was not right in what was being said and taught.

There is another verse that is relevant along with the verses from Revelation. I think it is in Ezekiel. It is God saying: I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked.

I think it will help you to look up some different translations with these two verses.
Ezekiel is describing TWO groups of people. Revelation is describing FOUR groups of men.

You are on a good but very hard to accept path right here. Anyone I have ever seen desire to talk about it (and it has been very, very few men I have seen do it) has been eventually greatly maligned.

You have started to see the same thing God showed me. I would prefer He show you the rest because if you think there has been bitter strife already, it is NOTHING compared to what happens when you try to discuss this.

Find the verse in Ezekiel and ask Him to show you why He would ever, ever destroy the righteous along with the wicked.
There is also one more verse I have found that ties in. It is, and we know that if we abide in Him, we do not sin.

This is not a conversation that goes well. Discretion and discernment are necessary to have it and to know when and who not to have it with. There is such a stronghold around it. I have only ever met three men who could even accept it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There appears to be a line of thought that goes, Gods law is just there to make us know we are sinners.
It humbles us but has no other purpose.

To achieve this you have to get hyper legalistic, and raise the idea of what is sin to the level of everything regarding yourself is sinful.

A common them talking to people was self condemnation, how many times each day they sinned.
The term living in the flesh had come to mean anything that they did for themselves.
So people where serving the Lord but it was carnal because it served their pride or self worth or something else.

Rather than focusing on loving people, seeing need and meeting it, everything was spent analysing why things were being done.

The claim was we are not sin conscious, yet these believers always could tell you all the sins they did that day, and repeated. So rather than being free from condemnation they lived it, and felt it was normal.

This is just not my experience. This is why I said what I said

Gal 3: [SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

I guess paul was a "hyper grace" preacher. Because he said the very thing you claim is a false teaching.

People who do not think the law has done its job, are in danger of excusing their sin, Because they have come to a point the law no longer condemns them, Who need Christ, Who needs to mature, Who needs to keep "running the race" as paul calls it, if we already made it..

I do have a question though, Who can tell you every sin they committed? I sure can't nor do I know anyone that could. Is this just another one of your "proofs" which no one has said?

ps. this is not an attack, Just a different view..

 

[Ariel82]

There appears to be a line of thought that goes, Gods law is just there to make us know we are sinners.
It humbles us but has no other purpose.

To achieve this you have to get hyper legalistic, and raise the idea of what is sin to the level of everything regarding yourself is sinful.

A common them talking to people was self condemnation, how many times each day they sinned.
The term living in the flesh had come to mean anything that they did for themselves.
So people where serving the Lord but it was carnal because it served their pride or self worth or something else.

Rather than focusing on loving people, seeing need and meeting it, everything was spent analysing why things were being done.

The claim was we are not sin conscious, yet these believers always could tell you all the sins they did that day, and repeated. So rather than being free from condemnation they lived it, and felt it was normal.

This is just not my experience. This is why I said what I said

This posts troubles me because you give voice to the lies demons whisper to people but never address and refute the lies with truth....

Counter to the lies..

1. You should love you, your body, your life because God loves you. Which of you would want your son or daughter to hate themselves?

2. You can't serve the Lord and be carnal at the same time.

3.too much self examination does not lead to anything but self righteousness Or condemnation depending on what you find and how honest you are about what God expects....no look to God and His will and have pure undefined religion.,feed the hungry and visit widows and orphans.

4. God convicts hearts and wants humble and contrite hearts that are teachable and willing to learn...not condemnation or harden hearts who are so numb from the pain they have stop beating..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand where your mind is in this peter, because my mind went the same way some time ago. I saw that something was not right in what was being said and taught.

There is another verse that is relevant along with the verses from Revelation. I think it is in Ezekiel. It is God saying: I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked.

I think it will help you to look up some different translations with these two verses.
Ezekiel is describing TWO groups of people. Revelation is describing FOUR groups of men.

You are on a good but very hard to accept path right here. Anyone I have ever seen desire to talk about it (and it has been very, very few men I have seen do it) has been eventually greatly maligned.

You have started to see the same thing God showed me. I would prefer He show you the rest because if you think there has been bitter strife already, it is NOTHING compared to what happens when you try to discuss this.

Find the verse in Ezekiel and ask Him to show you why He would ever, ever destroy the righteous along with the wicked.
There is also one more verse I have found that ties in. It is, and we know that if we abide in Him, we do not sin.

This is not a conversation that goes well. Discretion and discernment are necessary to have it and to know when and who not to have it with. There is such a stronghold around it. I have only ever met three men who could even accept it.

Amen, it all goes to context. If we get the context wrong, Our interpretation will be wrong no matter what we are talking about, or who we are discussing..