Trinity vs. Oneness

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Trinity vs. Oneness, why or why not?

For my position, refer to page 3 of the 'YHVH + Jesus + Holy Spirit' discussion: YHVH + Jesus + Holy Spirit

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Correction on spelling: 'Sabellian,' not 'Sabellion.'

[livingbygrace]

Well I completely agree with you. I have read your comment on page three of the other debate, and have myself quoted Heb1:9 many times. 1Cor15:24-28 shows that to Paul Jesus is not God the Father in Heaven now. They are five continual plain and explicit verses stating that Jesus is not God the Father now in Heaven. I have debated this subject in the past exhaustively and I am afraid it will not matter how much scripture you put up or how plainly it is written people will not accept it.

In the casse of 1Cor15:24-28 one response I received was.

'Jesus is greater than Paul and Jesus spoke the truth.' The person was more prepasred to cast doubt on the author of nearly half the books of the NT, rather than admit Jesus is the son in Heaven now.

I could quote many Bible verses but will simply quote two of Jesus statements once he had returned to Heaven.

Just as I have recieved authority from my Father. Rev2:27

Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which is coming dsown out of Heaven from my God. Heb3:12

If Jesus was God the Father in Heaven why would he still refer to God as his God when he had returned to Heaven.

Good luck with this

[MahogonySnail]

I expect to see two peopel in heaven. Jeesus and the Father.
It is the figure of a man surrounded by a cloud of bright shining glory. The glory cloud is the Father. The man is Jesus. They can appear as one, or two.

I believe in Father, Son and Holy spirit. Always have and always will. God hasn't shown me any thing otherwise so why would I go and believe other teaching?

YouTube - HOLY,HOLY,HOLY LORD GOD ALMIGHTY/MICHAEL W SMITH

[loveschild]

I've seen Jesus a few times. I've seen the Holy Spirit. The Father talked to me the other day. I'm body, soul, and spirit plus the Holy Spirit lives in me. That not all easy to explain either.

[mpaper345]

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne(Revelation 4:2).


3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads(revelation 22:3-4).

The only person we will see in heaven is Jesus,who is both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus being on the right hand of God means,that God gave the man Christ Jesus all power in heaven and earth until a certain time.

Matt

Well... actually.. I really don't know..

The Bible teache us a triunity, but there is an oneness too. I don't think we can't understand how it is in real.. we can't understand...

I remember a theologian, that said... : a person who say: I understand really how it is happen... That person.. doesn't understand anything.

We can read.. and we know.. that Jesus is God.. But for the rest..... I know what Sabellius taugh I know what Tertullianus taught..

And... don't know who is right...

[1Covenant]

This discussion seems to keep resurrecting itself. No pun intended.

In answer to your question why or why not let me preface my remarks with the a statement about our atonement. In my opinion, MAN had to die for his sin from the beginning for the sake of the divine consistency of God's curse but in death alone there was no hope since in men their is no source of the "infinite atonement." Only God could atone infinitely for a creature's sin against HIS infinite nature, so that thereafter in holiness/perfection/consistency God had the right to eternally forgive whom he wills to forgive without harm to his divinity and glorifying his great condescension and goodness.

Therefore the mystic union of God/Man in Christ Jesus died on the cross for my sins. The Father in Heaven overseeing.

From all my reading and discussions: Oneness theology cannot and will not say that God died on the cross. In part or in whole this is because they cannot have the "whole" of God in one entity on the cross dying.

[miktre]

I've seen a whole lot of people attack the Trinity doctrine as if God will no longer present Himself like this.
They shame people for their love of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
This is the very nature of our one God.
God will not change this ever!

New Jerusalem
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

[livingbygrace]

[quote=miktre;297133]I've seen a whole lot of people attack the Trinity doctrine as if God will no longer present Himself like this.
They shame people for their love of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
This is the very nature of our one God.
God will not change this ever!

New Jerusalem


If the Apostle Paul did not believe Jesus is God the Father I am quite happy to accept what he said. 1Cor15:24-28

I don't thnik Jesus believed it either.
Rev2:27
Rev3:12
These words were spoken once Jesus had returned to Heaven

John10:29
John17:3

Man will always have his philosophies, but I go by scripture.

[Lifelike]

Our Father who art in Heaven, Jesus ascended from earth to the right hand of the Father, and the Spirit was sent to the earth when Jesus returned to heaven - where He is now. I think the scripture shows a seperation but also a unity that one day we will know experientially. "that they be one as we are one' Jesus prayed. Such deep things for the earthly man to understand! we can only know it by the spirit, its not good trying to rationalise higher truth with the mind. "The carnal man cannot perceive the things of the spirit, they are foolishness to him" - this is not just talking about a man that has never received Christ but also the part of us that is flesh as we have dual natures.

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by Lifelike

Our Father who art in Heaven, Jesus ascended from earth to the right hand of the Father, and the Spirit was sent to the earth when Jesus returned to heaven - where He is now. I think the scripture shows a seperation but also a unity that one day we will know experientially. "that they be one as we are one' Jesus prayed. Such deep things for the earthly man to understand! we can only know it by the spirit, its not good trying to rationalise higher truth with the mind. "The carnal man cannot perceive the things of the spirit, they are foolishness to him" - this is not just talking about a man that has never received Christ but also the part of us that is flesh as we have dual natures.

'That they may be one as we are one.'

I personally believe this proves that when Jesus says he and His Father are one, this shows that Jesus is not God the Father.

How can we as believers be one? Only in the Spirit. We cannot be one person, we remain individuals, but can be one in the Spirit.

That they may be one as we are one.

Therefore surely that is how Jesus and His Father are one, in the Spirit,

Of course Jesus and His Father are far closer than we are as believers.

The Father is Spirit and unseen. The Father's Spirit exhibit's in His Son, but this does not make Jesus the Father. Hard to understand? Definately. I don't believe anyone will fully until we reach Heaven.


The Holy Spirit in the NT is said to be the Spirit of the Father, and the Spirit of the Son.

Therefore, to me we have a oneness if you like of Father, Son and Holy Spirit that is one in the Spirit of God the Father. But within that you have three distinct members of that oneness.

And I for one do not profess to understand the working out of the Trinity. But for me this is the best way to bring scripture together.

What I can say is with assurance, if anyone says Jesus is God the Father, they are ignoring, or going against much plainly written scripture, this is indisputable. I do not see how anyone who would call themselves 'fundamentalist can do this, as my understanding is that the fundamentalist belief would have to adhere strictly to what the Bible says.

[Lifelike]

[quote=livingbygrace;297243]'That they may be one as we are one.'

I personally believe this proves that when Jesus says he and His Father are one, this shows that Jesus is not God the Father.

How can we as believers be one? Only in the Spirit. We cannot be one person, we remain individuals, but can be one in the Spirit.

That they may be one as we are one.

Therefore surely that is how Jesus and His Father are one, in the Spirit,

Of course Jesus and His Father are far closer than we are as believers.

The Father is Spirit and unseen. The Father's Spirit exhibit's in His Son, but this does not make Jesus the Father. Hard to understand? Definately. I don't believe anyone will fully until we reach Heaven.


The Holy Spirit in the NT is said to be the Spirit of the Father, and the Spirit of the Son.

Therefore, to me we have a oneness if you like of Father, Son and Holy Spirit that is one in the Spirit of God the Father. But within that you have three distinct members of that oneness.

And I for one do not profess to understand the working out of the Trinity. But for me this is the best way to bring scripture together.

What I can say is with assurance, if anyone says Jesus is God the Father, they are ignoring, or going against much plainly written scripture, this is indisputable. I do not see how anyone who would call themselves 'fundamentalist can do this, as my understanding is that the fundamentalist belief would have to adhere strictly to what the Bible says.[/QUO TE]

mmm ok.

[mpaper345]

We are the same as Jesus but Jesus is the fulness of God's attributes,where the saints have partial attributes.

God is an omnipresent Spirit and is the same throughout His omnipresent Spirit with no distinction of persons.

God manifest in the flesh means that God manifest all His attributes to His Son,the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.

Jesus is not a created god or a second person of a trinity,but He is the fulness of God's attributes in a human body,and the Spirit in Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.

The difference between the Father and Son is God the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus,God the Father's personal human body,and the way we will see the invisible God in heaven.

Matt

Originally Posted by miktre

I've seen a whole lot of people attack the Trinity doctrine as if God will no longer present Himself like this.
They shame people for their love of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
This is the very nature of our one God.
God will not change this ever!

New Jerusalem
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

They attack it because they don't understand it the trinity doctrine. I can't say I understand their reasoning to why they believe what they believe? But they seem to agree with other false teachings apparently as they even admit it. I have seen evidence that there is abuse going on in their church because I have witnessed things in one church sadly. Not to go into a whole lot of details but the Lord had me pray and be silent.

See Oneness Pentecostal here.
Apologetics research resources on religious cults and sects - Occult, Oneness Pentecostalism, Orthodoxy, Etc.

But on the other hand they do hold to the scripture that one must be born again of the Spirit and of Water. That I will agree with because I do believe that a person must be born again of the Spirit and Baptism is the result of a New Born Life in Christ. But what about a person who can't get baptized and they receive Jesus just before they get hit by a car or they in some way just before they receive Jesus Christ? I do believe in Baptism because Jesus Christ does teach it. (John 3)

Acts 2:38
38Peter said to them, "(A)Repent, and each of you be (B)baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[1Covenant]

I would urge caution when dealing with oneness folks. They are not dummies and they have their own reasoned biblical examples for their beliefs.
I have spent two years reading and studying on it and believe me it can be tricky.
Most of the Trinitarians that I have seen confront a oneness believer end up walking away and just dogmatically believing the Trinity since both sides had their scripture proofs. Which to that, I Praise God that at least they didn't give into the oneness theology, but I would rather people see the heart of the difference and not just argue semantics or metaphysics or even isolated proof texts.

The heart of the issue is the atonement. Who had to atone for sin?

The oneness cannot put the fullness of God in Christ's death on the cross. The Trinitarian can because he confesses that mystery of the trinity which is laid out in my avatar.

[livingbygrace]

[quote=1Covenant;297334]I would urge caution when dealing with oneness folks. They are not dummies and they have their own reasoned biblical examples for their beliefs.
I have spent two years reading and studying on it and believe me it can be tricky.
Most of the Trinitarians that I have seen confront a oneness believer end up walking away and just dogmatically believing the Trinity since both sides had their scripture proofs. Which to that, I Praise God that at least they didn't give into the oneness theology, but I would rather people see the heart of the difference and not just argue semantics or metaphysics or even isolated proof texts.

The heart of the issue is the atonement. Who had to atone for sin?


But what I found when discussing this with a oneness Pentecostal was as follows

They gave short shrift to those they consdsidered Christian Liberals. The complaint was that the Liberal Christian would not adhere to the literal statements of the Bible, and this Pentecostal would quote literal statemenmts and expect everyone to accept them because they were in the Bible, and anyone who didn't was a liberal and wrong.

Yet, when I produced literlal Biblical statements which say that Jesus cannot be God the Father, and produce continuous verses of scripture to state this, they told me we have to read the Bible as a 'cohesive whole.'
In effect this person therefore actually believed that plain scripture could be jettisoned if it did not agree with their idea of the cohesive whole of the Bible
.
They in effect were prepared to ignore much of what is written in the NT


So in effect the fundamental Pentecostal was no different from the Christian Liberal at all, and yet he felt he had the right to admonish someone who in effect acted as he did concerning scripture, I found it strange!

Originally Posted by 1Covenant

I would urge caution when dealing with oneness folks. They are not dummies and they have their own reasoned biblical examples for their beliefs.
I have spent two years reading and studying on it and believe me it can be tricky.
Most of the Trinitarians that I have seen confront a oneness believer end up walking away and just dogmatically believing the Trinity since both sides had their scripture proofs. Which to that, I Praise God that at least they didn't give into the oneness theology, but I would rather people see the heart of the difference and not just argue semantics or metaphysics or even isolated proof texts.

The heart of the issue is the atonement. Who had to atone for sin?

The oneness cannot put the fullness of God in Christ's death on the cross. The Trinitarian can because he confesses that mystery of the trinity which is laid out in my avatar.

They are very difficult to talk to especially when they are so gung ho about evangelism. I had one woman come up to me and she started evangelizing to me out of the blue. They think every one is unsaved unless you are oneness. I would need to study much more and yet there is so much to know.

I tend to be better with scripture memorizing rather then retaining all this other information on this or that belief. Try studying Catholic doctrine, now that right there is enough to send a person's head spinning in outer space some where. They have so much and I don't even know how the average catholic can remember of that?

How do I get a picture of your avatar? I like it because it is all laid out for me and I like that.

[1Covenant]

Originally Posted by HeartOfGod

How do I get a picture of your avatar? I like it because it is all laid out for me and I like that.

I think you can just right click on it and copy it. Otherwise you can google "Shield of the Trinity" and one of the sites that pop up should have some you can download. Or you can go to Wikipedia and find more on it that way.

Originally Posted by HeartOfGod

They are very difficult to talk to especially when they are so gung ho about evangelism. I had one woman come up to me and she started evangelizing to me out of the blue. They think every one is unsaved unless you are oneness. I would need to study much more and yet there is so much to know.

They do have a skewed view of other christians, primarily because they see the Trinity as an unbiblical Catholic Church creation and not supported by the whole scripture. That being said and while I believe that they are wrong about the Trinity, they are right to try to fit all of scripture together. This in fact was the reformers rallying cry "sola scriptura." Meaning that scripture alone interprets scripture. You should have scripture help in interpreting passages and easier passages should be used to help with more difficult. And on and on.

Their difficulty is starting with a premise with which they go to the Bible to justify it, but again they are not novices at this and we all should be cautious because we all have a tendency to do this in one area or another of our faith and lives.

That being said, their premise refuses to let them acknowledge the OT revelation of the trinity in a clouded fashion, as the OT does with every NT truth which was revealed in the light of Christ Jesus.