YHVH + Jesus + Holy Spirit

[April6th]

How can Jesus be the Son and the Father at the same time? If God is the Father then he must have a son right? Jesus is not God, He is the SON of God. When it says that the Father has appointed his son heir, how can he appoint himself heir?

When Jesus told his disciples that he would send a comforter, what did he say? He said "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come unto you" How can he be the Spirit & Jesus at the same time?
Another thing about Trinitarian teaching is that God is the Father of Jesus right?
Well the bible says that The Spirit conceived Jesus not God. so would that make the Sprit the Father? See what i'm saying?
God had to wrap himself in flesh to come down b/c we cant contain His glory.
John 1:1,14. Jesus is God in flesh. Jesus is the Holy Ghost. Jesus is everything. He is the father, he is the son, he is the spirit.
God bless.

 

[phil36]

When Jesus told his disciples that he would send a comforter, what did he say? He said "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come unto you" How can he be the Spirit & Jesus at the same time?
Another thing about Trinitarian teaching is that God is the Father of Jesus right?
Well the bible says that The Spirit conceived Jesus not God. so would that make the Sprit the Father? See what i'm saying?
God had to wrap himself in flesh to come down b/c we cant contain His glory.
John 1:1,14. Jesus is God in flesh. Jesus is the Holy Ghost. Jesus is everything. He is the father, he is the son, he is the spirit.
God bless.

I take it you do know that this thought was deemed heresay? just incase you did not know. it is not Christian!!!!!

 

[Rogue]

I take it you do know that this thought was deemed heresay? just incase you did not know. it is not Christian!!!!!

Deemed heresy by mortal men, I might add.

Let's not forget that God defines Truth in His Word, we do not

 

[MahogonySnail]

correction: deemed heresy by the majority of mortal leaders of God's church and inspired by the Holy Spirit. No more mortal or prone to error than the apostles themselves.

 

[James_Steven]

How can Jesus be the Son and the Father at the same time? If God is the Father then he must have a son right? Jesus is not God, He is the SON of God. When it says that the Father has appointed his son heir, how can he appoint himself heir?

How can Jesus be the Son and the Father at the same time?

This misunderstanding stems from the God concept. If we look at it as a family name standpoint it makes sense.
Like - Jesus is firstborn of the Yahweh family.

If God is the Father then he must have a son right?

Yes, to use the word Father implies there is a son.

Jesus is not God, He is the SON of God. When it says that the Father has appointed his son heir, how can he appoint himself heir?

What are you saying?

Jesus is not YHVH, He is the son of YHVH. When it says the Father has appointed his son heir, how can he appoint himself heir?

So lets go back to what the Bible has said about the subject:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

When we try to interject our understanding we fall short.

 

[Rogue]

correction: deemed heresy by the majority of mortal leaders of God's church

The key is in the bold

and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

We think, when in reality we have no way of proving that.

Keep in mind, I don't agree with that theology in the least. I'm just saying, it's a common defense to avoid even considering an idea just because centuries ago mortal men deemed it deplorable to their own theology, and we have to be careful.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Mortal man wrote the scriptures. Mortal man chose which books should be in your bible. Yes even your beloved old testament. In fact the Nicene creed and the canon go hand in hand, one was made to confirm the other. So you can't reject one and still hold absolutely to the other. You can't really get away from the mortal man thing on any level .

 

[HeartOfGod]

I have seen one post on the forums here that denies this and heard it a few times in chat.

That would be oneness pentecostal as that is one that I can think that believes that way.I think they believe that you also baptize only in the name of Jesus and all other names are titles.

This is very helpful resource.
Apologetics research resources on religious cults and sects - About T.D. Jakes

Yes, I believe in the trinity always have since day I was a child.

 

[mercer]

YHVH YESHUA= YHVH's savior- the FATHER and the SON put together is the HOlY SPIRIT . I am in my FATHER and he is in me I do nothing of my self but only of my father, me and my father are one, if you see me you see the father. Isaiah 7:14 prophecy Emmanuel means GOD with us. JESUS was the total representative to teach a tru abba (father) or teacher he was simply teaching us thruogh his acounts how to pray to the FATHER his being in the flesh and teaching the ones who walk in the flesh.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Yes, Jesus is God, but to say Jesus is the Father as some claim, is a false assertion. This post is intended to defend the Doctrine of the Trinity, to make a clear distinction of what the Trinity is (which most people mistaken for a Oneness Theology approach), and to help people who hold to a Oneness approach see the Trinity in the Scriptures. The Trinity states: God is three Persons (not to be confused with 'Being'), whom subsides in the One Being (not to be confused with 'Persons'), whom are co-equal.

With that said, the Son/Word pre-existed WITH the Father, you have heard it said, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.' -- John 1:1-2

This is also emphasized in John 17:5, which states, 'Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.'

The Father did not take the flesh. The pre-incarnate Son (whom is God) took the flesh, as it is written, 'And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.' This same concept is reiterated in John 4:2-3, 'By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.' How can one 'come in the flesh' without existing beforehand?

So we conclude that Jesus Christ, the Son from all Eternity, whom was always with the Father, took the flesh. It is to my understanding that Oneness Theology denies the Eternal existence of Christ, because they view the Person of the Son as a mere creation at Bethlehem. To that, I would like to look at two pieces of Scripture that are commonly misused to prove Jesus as being created, as cited in a previous post of mine:

1.) Firstly, let us look at Colossians 1:15, which states, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, the word 'firstborn' (Greek: prototokos) is an adjective. While in a literal sense, it can denote the first that comes from the womb, but frequently is an expression of supremacy, not chronological order.

Psalms 89:27, God said in regards to David, that He would appoint David to be His 'firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.' Also in Jeremiah 31:9, where Ephraim is called the Lord's 'firstborn,' although, Manasseh was Ephraim's older brother, the 'firstborn' from the womb (Genesis 48:14). In this context, and as shown in Genesis 48:19, as well as Psalms 89:27, the term 'firstborn' is a title of superiority, of supremacy. The term 'firstborn' in Colossians 1:15 does not refer to an actual physical birth, but rather, refers to Christ's position of supremacy. Colossians 1:15 has absolutely nothing to do with Christ being 'created.' Colossians 1:18 goes on to Jesus is 'the beginning.'

2.) Secondly, let us examine Revelation 3:14-15, which states, “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.’”

‘Beginning’ here, translates from the Greek word ‘arche,’ meaning ‘the origin,’ ‘the active cause,’ ‘that by which anything begins to be,’ ‘leader,’ ‘the person or thing that commences,’ ‘magistracy,’ ‘rule.’ Revelation 3:14 does not in anyway teach that Christ was created. Ironically, it teaches that He is the ‘active cause,’ ‘the origin’ of all creation, that He is the Creator, the source of all things, the Beginning of all things. As Micah 5:2, a Messianic prophecy puts it, ‘But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of ETERNITY.’

To further prove the Eternal existence of Christ, He said in John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say unto you, before Abraham was born, I am." Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" The 'I am' denoted absolute eternal existence, it is a claim to be Yahweh of the Old Testament. The Jews understood the significance of this claim, and it's clear in their reaction, when they picked up stones against Christ. John 10:29-33 also make note of a similar incident, "The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"

​

In addition, refer to Isaiah 48:16, which says, “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

The speaker in Isaiah 48:16 is obviously God, (refer to verses 11 and 12, “For My Own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another… I am He, I am the first, I am also the last&#8221, and yet He says He has been sent by God [the Father]. This is clearly in reference to the pre-incarnate Christ. Cross reference Isaiah 48:12 with what Christ also said in Revelation 1:17-18, and Revelation 22:12-13, 16 in His claim to be the 'first and the last,' the 'Alpha and the Omega.' A question for those who hold to Oneness doctrine, did the Father send Himself, or did He send the Son? Jesus (Father) is going to send Himself (Son), and also send Himself (Holy Spirit) again? How much sense does that make? Absolutely none! With that said, we can further conclude that Jesus is the Eternal Son, and pre-existed with the Eternal Father, along with the Eternal Spirit. God the Father sent God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit – three Persons subsiding in One Godhead.

I tend to use Galatians 3:28 as an illustration to help ‘paint’ the Trinity. It says, ‘There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.’ Likewise, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One in the Godhead, One God, not three.

Another way of looking at it is pictured in Mark 10:6-8, which states, ‘But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.’

That’s not to say that the husband and wife become one in person, as in numerical value. I wholly believe that what Christ said in reference to Genesis 2:24 (‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh&#8217 can completely be applied to the Trinity, to the Godhead. The reason for that is because the term used in Genesis 2:24 for the word ‘one’ is the Hebrew word ‘echad,’ which in this context means ‘unified,' 'compound unity.' And though 'echad' does not always mean 'compound unity,' it at times does. With that said 'echad,' which is used as a compound unity in Genesis 2:24, is also used in Deuteronomy 6:4, which states, ‘Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!’ While in light of the whole of Scriptures, 'echad,' in terms of Deuteronomy 6:4 does seem to make reference to a compound unity when referring to Genesis 1:26, John 1:1, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:8-12.

For those who would deny the Trinity, Psalm 45:6-7 (c.f. Hebrews 1:8-10) states, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.' If Jesus is the Father, then does even the God have a god? The same question holds to any Jehovah Witness that may be floating on the boards: if Jesus isn't God, who is the Father speaking to? Another god? And my answer to that is this: absolutely preposterous! Who is able to say there is a god higher than God Himself?

Revelation 5:4-7 states, "Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, 'Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.' And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. AND HE CAME AND TOOK THE BOOK OUT OF THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE.' So let me get this straight, the Lamb, who is Jesus, whom you also proclaim as the Father, is going to take the book out of who’s hands? If Jesus is the Father, who's sitting on the throne?

When we apply the Doctrine of the Trinity, the questions that I've posed suddenly make sense:

1.) Q: If Jesus is the Father, who was He praying to in John 17:11, Luke 10:21, Luke 9:18?

A: Jesus isn't the Father, He is the Eternal Son whom is completely 100% God, and He prayed to the Eternal Father whom is completely 100% God, in Spirit whom is completely 100% God. These three Persons are One in Being, One in Essence, One in the Godhead. Refer to the above for the illustrations posed for this view.

2.) Q: If Jesus is the Father, then does even God have a god ('...Therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed You...')?

A: Since Psalm 45:6-7 is speaking of the Eternal Father UNTO the Eternal Son, it all makes sense now -- God the Father speaking of God the Son. The Father does not have a god, and Christ was not formed or created at Bethlehem, but rather, is from all Eternity. Christ said in John 20:17, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" This is all explained with proper knowledge of the Trinity, and the subordination within. Subordination does not mean that Members of the Godhead are not co-equal. Christ is equal to His Father, yet also voluntarily took on a subordinate role, and is shown in the verse above, Philippians 2:5-7, John 4:34, John 5:30, and Hebrews 10:5-10. Philippians 2:5-7 states, 'Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.'

You can not understand this text without understanding first that Christ pre-existed. For how can He empty Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant, if He had not existed beforehand?

3.) Q: What does Genesis 1:26 suggest? Genesis 1:26 says, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’"

A: The terms ‘Us,’ and ‘Our’ are plural, not singular. This is not in reference to angels as some anti-Trinitarians claim, or otherwise, you would be suggesting that angels AND God equally created us, when it is God ALONE who is Creator. The ‘Us,’ and ‘Our’ are in reference to the three Persons of the Godhead. If Christ be the Father, it would read something along the lines, “Then God said, ‘I will make man according to My image, according to My likeness…’” Also see Genesis 3:22, and Genesis 11:7. With these verses in mind, it now crystallizes everything said thus far, that Christ was the Eternal Son and co-existed WITH the Father (John 1:1-2), what it meant when Jesus said, in John 17:5, ‘Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was,’ what is being said in Isaiah 48:16, and Psalm 45:6-7. It deeply sorrows me to see that people would give mere ANGELS more credit in creation than they would the King of Glory!

This all can also be seen in the baptism of Christ, as Christ was brought up from the water, and the Spirit of God descended down, and simultaneously, at the same time, a voice out of heaven (God the Father) saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

James, I would be careful using 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. as a proof text of the trinity because most scholars consider it an addition done a few hundred years ago.

In fact many of the translations like NIV do not include it.

Actually, the Byzantine-type texts do include 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.' It is thought that the reason the modern day translations do not include this verse is because they are translated from the Alexandrian-type texts, which most modern translations are translated from. The reason for this missing verse is thought to be due to the arising Seballianism in the early Church. While the early Catholic church kept it in it's original format, it is thought that the Orthodox Greek deleted it from the manuscripts so that it would not be used to support Seballianism. It is apparent through the writings of the early Church, such as in the writings of Tertullian, a firm believer in the Trinity, pre-Nicene, had combated Sebellianism. While I do not doubt this fact, I do not know if they were ever originally in the Alexandrian-type texts.

 

[ShelleBelle76]

Greetings Everyone,

I have a somewhat different Scriptural take on the Deity of God. In my opinion, the Scriptures very clearly teach that there are only two entities Whom we should acknowledge as God, not three and not as co-equals. They are God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor. 8:5-7 makes this very clear. Notice what Paul points out:

A. That there are many gods and many lords both in heaven and in the earth.

B. But to US………(the Saints, the true Believers).

C. There is only ONE GOD, known as the Father, out from Whom everything thing that exists has come.

D. And that there is only ONE LORD, Who is Jesus Christ, through Whom everything that exists came into being, including us.

E. Now notice the very next thing Paul says: That NOT EVERYONE knows this obvious fact. And apparently, it must have even included some in the Church at Corinth who lacked this knowledge.

What is striking in all of this is that Paul totally fails to mention the so-called “third person” in the Trinity doctrine, the Holy Spirit. Why? Because Paul knew, through the revelations he received directly from the risen Saviour, that there is only ONE God, the Father and ONE Lord, Jesus Christ.

If there were such a Trinity of gods (as most of Christianity claims), Paul, who was directly called and taught by Christ and was commissioned by Him to go the heathen gentiles, would have committed a serious sin by not being obedient to Christ’s commission to him in making that fact known to heathen people who worshipped many gods!

Do other Scriptures support Paul’s teaching on this subject? Yes they do! Take a look at what Colossians 1:15-17 says:

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.”

See also:

1Timothy 2:5 For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

Remember the little exchange that took place between the Lord and the Apostles in Matthew 16: 15-17 where Jesus asked them who did they say He was? What did Peter say?

“Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Did Jesus Christ rebuke Peter and tell him that he had it all wrong? That He (Christ) was co-equal with God the Father and that He was the second person in the Trinity? Not only did Christ not rebuke Peter but He blessed Him and complimented him for saying what he did!

Here is another interesting verse of Scripture which neatly puts things into the proper perspective concerning the relationship that exists between Jesus Christ and the and the Father and the Believers with Christ and the Father.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So, concerning the poll question as to whether: “Do you believe that Jesus is God?” I would say “yes” but with these qualifications:

That Jesus Christ is not equal with or the same as God the Father because He is the Son of the Living God (the Father) and acknowledges the Father as His God.

Ponderer

I read this and it is very interesting and something I want to study further. But I am trying to fit one scripture into this theory and it isn't making sense...

Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

That would make Lord and God the same being. Not God and Lord seperate?

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

I read this and it is very interesting and something I want to study further. But I am trying to fit one scripture into this theory and it isn't making sense...

Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

That would make Lord and God the same being. Not God and Lord seperate?

Read the above, I address this in a lengthy format.

 

[ShelleBelle76]

Read the above, I address this in a lengthy format.

I did read and it says there is One God- the Father, and One Lord-Jesus. And that Jesus is God but subordinate to the Father. It sounded like you were explaining your doctrine of two beings, God the Father, and the Lord Jesus the mediator, not one,"Lord our God". The scripture I referenced says there is one. Did I misunderstand you? I am just trying to understand...

 

[mercer]

yes the NIV is horrible i think GOD wants us to study deligently to understand his word through the HOLY SPIRIT ,if you read somthing simple and easy with the flesh your spirit is not at work, plus niv and any new translation is watered down from the truth of GOD cant trust watered down it can water down your faith, you should invest in an old King James Bilble with a Strongs Concordnance it tells you the original language of greek and chaldean. GOD BLESS

 

[livingbygrace]

Well, to me God is Spirit. The Spirit of the Father resides in His Son, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, the Bible also says the Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus, which we can accept if we believe that the Spirit of the Father exhibits in His Son.

So if people put the emphasis on the three being one, I find nothing wrong with that, to me they are are all of the one Spirit. If others lay the emphasis on three individual members of that one spirit I don't believe that is wrong either.
The Apostle Paul most certainly distinguished between the Father and the son in five very plain continuous verses of scripture.
I don't believe that God is really that concerned which way the individual sees it. Some things we will never perfectly understand until we get to Heaven

 

[Ponderer]

I read this and it is very interesting and something I want to study further. But I am trying to fit one scripture into this theory and it isn't making sense...

Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

That would make Lord and God the same being. Not God and Lord seperate?

ShelleBelle76:

The verse of Scripture you quoted was Jesus’ reply to a question one of the Scribes had asked Him concerning the First Commandment (see verse 28). Now notice the very interesting comment the Scribe made concerning Jesus' reply:

Mark 12:32 ".........Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for THERE IS ONE GOD; AND THERE IS NONE OTHER BUT HE.

No mention here about a Trinity of Gods, neither by Jesus or the Scribe. But who is this "HE"

Well, Jesus' verse 29 response is a direct quote from Deuteronomy 6:4. This is what Deut 6:4 says literally:

"Hear O Israel: YHWH our ELOHIM is the only YHWH."

As taught elsewhere in the Scriptures, "YHWH" is the most High God's name, and there is only ONE MOST HIGH GOD. He is known as THE FATHER.

Ponderer

 

[Dutch41]

I read this and it is very interesting and something I want to study further. But I am trying to fit one scripture into this theory and it isn't making sense...

Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

That would make Lord and God the same being. Not God and Lord seperate?

Before I am going to write.. we have to understand that the first Christians did have one Bible.. and that is the OT.

Like the Jews in Berea we have to do the same:These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This part said: we have to study the Bible and know who Jesus is.

In my opinion: The Scripture is clear about one God...

We can read it in the Shema..HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE.,

We also know: even what you said in Mr 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

Even Paul believes in one God: We can read that in 1Cor 8:4 Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no God but one.

Even the God Him self said in Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

God said in:

Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will you liken me, or shall I be equal? said the Holy One.
and in 46:5 5 To whom will you liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

and in 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me

Moses, Jesus, Paul and God Him self are saying: There is only one God. Not 2 or 3.

And there is nobody equal at God.

But to understand what the Bible teach, from who is Jesus.. we have to understand some...

Who is Jesus... I think to understand really who Jesus is.. we have to look at Fil 2:6
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in the fashion of a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death—even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name,

This is a strange part: Because Paul said here about Jesus... Jesus was before He was a human... in an appearance of God. Even... there is written: He was equal at God.

This is strange... Because would YHWH lie in His Word... When we look further.. we see more: In Isiah 44 we just read that the YHWH is the the first and the last..

When we look what is written in the book of Revelation 22:13: Jesus said from Him self:
I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

This is only possible when Jesus is God.. The Bible gave us a lot of clue's who Jesus is.
Is He really JHWH? is that possible?

Well I think it is....
I will gave you a couple of text more.. (but actually there is a lot of more) why Jesus is the same as JHWH.. I will gave you that from the OT.

First from the book of Zech
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn

When we read Rev 1:7 we know we are talking about Jesus.

We can read here that YHWH is talking. That all the inhabitants of Jerusalem YHWH will see.. and see that they had pierced Him, YHWH Him self..

Another interesting piece is Zech 14:3-4
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall split in the middle thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

YHWH Him self would fight against the nations.. and the feet of JHWH would standing at Mnt Olive.. We know when we read Act 1:9-12 that we are talking about Jesus..

Further an interesting quote is this: (and I quote from the Jewish Publicity Society, the translation from the TeNaCH, like the Jews are using it.)

In Micah 5:2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days

Here is YHWH talking that He is coming.. in Bethlehem, that He is a ruler in Israel.

The last couple of text that I will gave you for now is John 12:37-41
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, Lord, who has believed our report? and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He has blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

John quote here Isaiah 6:9-10

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see you indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

and John said that Isaiah was spoken of Jesus.. when He saw Jesus. And when we looked at Isaiah 6:1 we see this..In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

So John said actually.. Isaiah saw Jesus in His former morphe.. and that was: YHWH
We can see.. Jesus is the same as JHWH.

When we are going back to the first verse that I quote from Phil 2:6 We can see in the short text who Jesus is...before He was a human..

I gave a couple of verses to show you in a short time.. who Jesus is.. and why we called Him God. And why He is God. But there is a lot more proves..

It showed there is one God.. and when Jesus was a human.. He was totally human.. not half God, and half human.. He couldn't talk, or walk... he had to learn...

When we read the OT.. who create the world? The OT is clear.. it said only Elohiem.. (or YHWH) The NT said Jesus..
How many Redeemers are there? The OT said.. only YHWH is the Redeemer.. but, the NT teach.. Jesus. (Remember in the time of Jesus they only got the OT)
How many Rocks are there..? In the OT, YHWH said, He is the only Rock.. and He knows no other Rock.. The NT said Jesus is the Rock.. (even He was there in the dessert during the exodus from Israel.

I know it is difficult to understand.. But like I see it: The Creator Him self, became a human.. for me.. He became a slave.. to serve me. To save me, so I could live for ever in His presents.. because He knows..I can't do it by my own.

 

[livingbygrace]

I believe Paul plainly thought there was two beings

Then the end will come , when he(Jesus) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
For He must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For He has put everything under his feet.
Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself who put everything under Christ.
When he has done this, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

1Cor15:24-28

 

[ShelleBelle76]

Before I am going to write.. we have to understand that the first Christians did have one Bible.. and that is the OT.

Like the Jews in Berea we have to do the same:These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This part said: we have to study the Bible and know who Jesus is.

In my opinion: The Scripture is clear about one God...

We can read it in the Shema..HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE.,

We also know: even what you said in Mr 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

Even Paul believes in one God: We can read that in 1Cor 8:4 Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no God but one.

Even the God Him self said in Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

God said in:

Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will you liken me, or shall I be equal? said the Holy One.
and in 46:5 5 To whom will you liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

and in 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me

Moses, Jesus, Paul and God Him self are saying: There is only one God. Not 2 or 3.

And there is nobody equal at God.

But to understand what the Bible teach, from who is Jesus.. we have to understand some...

Who is Jesus... I think to understand really who Jesus is.. we have to look at Fil 2:6
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in the fashion of a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death—even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name,

This is a strange part: Because Paul said here about Jesus... Jesus was before He was a human... in an appearance of God. Even... there is written: He was equal at God.

This is strange... Because would YHWH lie in His Word... When we look further.. we see more: In Isiah 44 we just read that the YHWH is the the first and the last..

When we look what is written in the book of Revelation 22:13: Jesus said from Him self:
I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

This is only possible when Jesus is God.. The Bible gave us a lot of clue's who Jesus is.
Is He really JHWH? is that possible?

Well I think it is....
I will gave you a couple of text more.. (but actually there is a lot of more) why Jesus is the same as JHWH.. I will gave you that from the OT.

First from the book of Zech
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn

When we read Rev 1:7 we know we are talking about Jesus.

We can read here that YHWH is talking. That all the inhabitants of Jerusalem YHWH will see.. and see that they had pierced Him, YHWH Him self..

Another interesting piece is Zech 14:3-4
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall split in the middle thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

YHWH Him self would fight against the nations.. and the feet of JHWH would standing at Mnt Olive.. We know when we read Act 1:9-12 that we are talking about Jesus..

Further an interesting quote is this: (and I quote from the Jewish Publicity Society, the translation from the TeNaCH, like the Jews are using it.)

In Micah 5:2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days

Here is YHWH talking that He is coming.. in Bethlehem, that He is a ruler in Israel.

The last couple of text that I will gave you for now is John 12:37-41
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, Lord, who has believed our report? and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He has blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

John quote here Isaiah 6:9-10

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see you indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

and John said that Isaiah was spoken of Jesus.. when He saw Jesus. And when we looked at Isaiah 6:1 we see this..In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

So John said actually.. Isaiah saw Jesus in His former morphe.. and that was: YHWH
We can see.. Jesus is the same as JHWH.

When we are going back to the first verse that I quote from Phil 2:6 We can see in the short text who Jesus is...before He was a human..

I gave a couple of verses to show you in a short time.. who Jesus is.. and why we called Him God. And why He is God. But there is a lot more proves..

It showed there is one God.. and when Jesus was a human.. He was totally human.. not half God, and half human.. He couldn't talk, or walk... he had to learn...

When we read the OT.. who create the world? The OT is clear.. it said only Elohiem.. (or YHWH) The NT said Jesus..
How many Redeemers are there? The OT said.. only YHWH is the Redeemer.. but, the NT teach.. Jesus. (Remember in the time of Jesus they only got the OT)
How many Rocks are there..? In the OT, YHWH said, He is the only Rock.. and He knows no other Rock.. The NT said Jesus is the Rock.. (even He was there in the dessert during the exodus from Israel.

I know it is difficult to understand.. But like I see it: The Creator Him self, became a human.. for me.. He became a slave.. to serve me. To save me, so I could live for ever in His presents.. because He knows..I can't do it by my own.

Thank you so much for this post I am going to copy this and study it. This is a major focus point for me right now as I am diligently trying to understand God or the Godhead. The beautiful thing is despite my lack of knowledge and understanding, he is so present in my life! I can only imagine the walls that will fall in my heart, once I have a good perception of who He really is.