Healing in the Atonement?

[7777pinacled]

​

Proverbs 20 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

20 Wine is a mocker, strong liquor a rowdy;
anyone led astray by it is unwise.

2 The dread of a king is like when a lion roars;
he who makes him angry commits a life-threatening sin.

3 Avoiding quarrels brings a person honor;
for any fool can explode in anger.

4 A lazy person won’t plow in winter;
so at harvest-time, when he looks, there is nothing.

5 The heart’s real intentions are like deep water;
but a person with discernment draws them out.

6 Most people announce that they show kindness,
but who can find someone faithful [enough to do it]?

7 The righteous live a life of integrity;
happy are their children after them.

8 The king seated on his judgment throne
can winnow out all evil with his glance.

9 Who can say, “I have made my heart clean,
I am cleansed from my sin”?

10 False weights and false measures —
Adonai detests them both.
11 The character of even a child is known by how he acts,
by whether his deeds are pure and right.

12 The hearing ear and the seeing eye —
Adonai made them both.

13 If you love sleep, you will become poor;
keep your eyes open, and you’ll have plenty of food.

14 “Really bad stuff!” says the buyer [to the seller];
then he goes off and brags [about his bargain].

15 A person may have gold and a wealth of pearls,
but lips informed by knowledge are a precious jewel.

16 Seize his clothes, because he guaranteed a stranger’s loan;
take them as security for that unknown woman.

17 Food obtained by fraud may taste good,
but later the mouth is full of gravel.

18 After consultation, plans succeed;
so take wise advice when waging war.

19 A gossip goes around revealing secrets,
so don’t get involved with a talkative person.

20 Whoever curses his father or mother —
his lamp will go out in total darkness.

21 Possessions acquired quickly at first
will not be blessed in the end.

22 Don’t say, “I’ll pay back evil for evil”;
wait for Adonai to save you.

23 Adonai detests a double standard in weights,
and false scales are not good.

24 A man’s steps are ordered by Adonai,
so how can a person understand his own ways?

25 It is a snare to dedicate a gift to God rashly
and reflect on the vows only afterwards.

26 A wise king winnows the wicked [from the righteous]
and threshes them under the cartwheel.
27 The human spirit is a lamp of Adonai;
it searches one’s inmost being.

28 Grace and truth preserve a king;
with grace he upholds his throne.

29 The pride of the young is their strength;
the dignity of the old is gray hair.

30 Blows that wound purge away evil,
yes, beatings [cleanse] one’s inmost being.









Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

[FONT=&quot]“He committed no sin,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]nor was any deceit found on his lips.”


[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

“He committed no sin,
nor was any deceit found on his lips.”

Amen

We can trust Him with all of our life.

This scripture reveals the character, the goodness of the Lord, which when known causes repentance within our heart. Kind of like the end of Job.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for well-being, and not for calamity, in order to give you a future and a hope.

 

[stonesoffire]

Thanks. Not a salvation issue..

Curious do you think the man in Mathew 7 performed what he claimed as valid, as wonderful works ? Can God use a unbeliever to bring His work of faith ?

If I harbor any hurt within my spirit by your words, then bitterness will developed and pollute the flow of living water within me. This pertains to me. You will deal with your own heart issues.

The man in Matthew 7 is Jesus. I have no idea what your question means.

 

[stonesoffire]

Many (((((HUGS)))))) to you stonesoffire . I so appreciate you here. I'll be praying for your continued healing sissy.

Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 1 Cor. 2:12

I appreciate your strong stand for your faith Joanie. The Word is as Jesus says, power and life because it's His and He backs His own Word.

blessings flow abundantly to you girl!

 

[stonesoffire]

This is sad and where I draw the line. If God is healing you then you praise him for it. You do not go out telling others that they are in unbelief or do not have enough faith and that is why they are not getting healed.

There is no where in the Bible that God says that he will always or has to heal everyone. He is God and his will for us is what is best for us whether it be sickness or health. I'm sure Paul had enough faith...He raised someone from the dead, yet he still had to suffer himself and God did not take that thorn from his flesh. Paul pleaded with the Lord three times to take it away. And what was God's reply....My grace is sufficient for you because my strength is made perfect in weakness.

So yeah, I take much offence in your statement to another sister in God, insinuating she is in unbelief. You people really need to wake up if you think it is God telling you this stuff.

To state healing isn't included in the atonement is unbelief.

Paul was being buffeted. Suffering blows. What do you think that means?

There are degrees of both faith and unbelief. I did not say she wasn't a Christian. I did not say she was deceived. Nor did I say she was in captivity to demonic beings, yet she has said these things to me.

And there is a lot of gossip being banded about.

 

[7777pinacled]

To state healing isn't included in the atonement is unbelief.

Paul was being buffeted. Suffering blows. What do you think that means?

There are degrees of both faith and unbelief. I did not say she wasn't a Christian. I did not say she was deceived. Nor did I say she was in captivity to demonic beings, yet she has said these things to me.

And there is a lot of gossip being banded about.

to the above bolded.



[FONT=&quot]Galatians 6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]6 Brothers, suppose someone is caught doing something wrong. You who have the Spirit should set him right, but in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you won’t be tempted too. 2 Bear one another’s burdens — in this way you will be fulfilling the Torah’s true meaning, which the Messiah upholds. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is really nothing, he is fooling himself. 4 So let each of you scrutinize his own actions. Then if you do find something to boast about, at least the boasting will be based on what you have actually done and not merely on a judgment that you are better than someone else; 5 for each person will carry his own load. 6 But whoever is being instructed in the Word should share all the good things he has with his instructor. 7 Don’t delude yourselves: no one makes a fool of God! A person reaps what he sows. 8 Those who keep sowing in the field of their old nature, in order to meet its demands, will eventually reap ruin; but those who keep sowing in the field of the Spirit will reap from the Spirit everlasting life. 9 So let us not grow weary of doing what is good; for if we don’t give up, we will in due time reap the harvest. 10 Therefore, as the opportunity arises, let us do what is good to everyone, and especially to the family of those who are trustingly faithful.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Look at the large letters I use as I close in my own handwriting.
12 It is those who want to look good outwardly who are trying to get you to be circumcised. The only reason they are doing it is to escape persecution for preaching about the Messiah’s execution-stake. 13 For even those who are getting circumcised don’t observe the Torah. On the contrary, they want you to get circumcised so that they can boast of having gained your adherence. 14 But as for me, Heaven forbid that I should boast about anything except the execution-stake of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah! Through him, as far as I am concerned, the world has been put to death on the stake; and through him, as far as the world is concerned, I have been put to death on the stake.
15 For neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is being a new creation. 16 And as many as order their lives by this rule, shalom upon them and mercy, and upon the Isra’el of God!
17 From now on, I don’t want anyone to give me any more tsuris, because I have scars on my body to prove that I belong to Yeshua!
18 The grace of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.[/FONT]




[/FONT]

 

[oldethennew]

He committed 'no sin', un-fortunately, we did...

 

[garee]

To state healing isn't included in the atonement is unbelief.

Paul was being buffeted. Suffering blows. What do you think that means?

There are degrees of both faith and unbelief. I did not say she wasn't a Christian. I did not say she was deceived. Nor did I say she was in captivity to demonic beings, yet she has said these things to me.

And there is a lot of gossip being banded about.

The blows suffered are those who are yoked with Christ that works in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure . Because the Son of man is no longer here the arrows of the wicked are aimed at the believers. Kill the perceived enemy.

We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.2Co 4:8

 

[stonesoffire]

The blows suffered are those who are yoked with Christ that works in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure . Because the Son of man is no longer here the arrows of the wicked are aimed at the believers. Kill the perceived enemy.

We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.2Co 4:8

This post makes no sense.

 

[7777pinacled]

This post makes no sense.

Increase our faith?



God has shown us such mercy that we do not lose courage as we do the work he has given us. 2 Indeed, we refuse to make use of shameful underhanded methods, employing deception or distorting God’s message. On the contrary, by making very clear what the truth is, we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 So if indeed our Good News is veiled, it is veiled only to those in the process of being lost. 4 They do not come to trust because the god of the ‘olam hazeh has blinded their minds, in order to prevent them from seeing the light shining from the Good News about the glory of the Messiah, who is the image of God. 5 For what we are proclaiming is not ourselves, but the Messiah Yeshua as Lord, with ourselves as slaves for you because of Yeshua. 6 For it is the God who once said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has made his light shine in our hearts, the light of the knowledge of God’s glory shining in the face of the Messiah Yeshua.

7 But we have this treasure in clay jars, so that it will be evident that such overwhelming power comes from God and not from us. 8 We have all kinds of troubles, but we are not crushed; we are perplexed, yet not in despair; 9 persecuted, yet not abandoned; knocked down, yet not destroyed. 10 We always carry in our bodies the dying of Yeshua, so that the life of Yeshua may be manifested in our bodies too. 11 For we who are alive are always being handed over to death for Yeshua’s sake, so that Yeshua’s life also might be manifested in our mortal bodies. 12 Thus death is at work in us but life in you.

13 The Tanakh says, “I trusted, therefore I spoke.”[a] Since we have that same Spirit who enables us to trust, we also trust and therefore speak; 14 because we know that he who raised the Lord Yeshua will also raise us with Yeshua and bring us along with you into his presence. 15 All this is for your sakes, so that as grace flows out to more and more people, it may cause thanksgiving to overflow and bring glory to God.

16 This is why we do not lose courage. Though our outer self is heading for decay, our inner self is being renewed daily. 17 For our light and transient troubles are achieving for us an everlasting glory whose weight is beyond description. 18 We concentrate not on what is seen but on what is not seen, since things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal.

 

[know1]

And if there is any doubt about why he did this - why was he afflicted by God, he suffered for OUR iniquities, OUR sin, and in OUR place! So, this is the part where we come in. Did Jesus suffer so we could be healed? Well, the verse says,

He lifted up our illnesses and carried our pain OR Our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried.

So, quite a difference. The Hebrew, I think, does use the word "sickness." But, what kind of sickness? Sickness in our bodies, or sickness in our souls? Because the entire book of Isaiah, as I have posted before, is about Isaiah being told to go to the nation of Israel, who were diseased with sin! Here is what God says to Isaiah when he first calls him.

"4. The sinful nation is as good as dead,
the people weighed down by evil deeds.
They are offspring who do wrong,
children who do wicked things.
They have abandoned the Lord,
and rejected the Holy One of Israel.
They are alienated from him.
5 5. Why do you insist on being battered?
Why do you continue to rebel?
Your head has a massive wound,
your whole body is weak.
6 6. From the soles of your feet to your head,
there is no spot that is unharmed.
There are only bruises, cuts,
and open wounds.
They have not been cleansed or bandaged,
nor have they been treated with olive oil.
7 7. Your land is devastated,
your cities burned with fire.
Right before your eyes your crops
are being destroyed by foreign invaders.
They leave behind devastation and destruction." Isaiah 1:4-7

This is totally a message to to Isaiah to proclaim to Israel who have been wounded and are weak, because they are wicked, weighed down by evil deeds and a sinful nation. That is the CONTEXT of Isaiah.

Isaiah starts with the wounded, sin-sick metaphor right here in Chapter 1, which I have italicized above, and he keeps it up throughout the book. Israel is going down, if they do not repent. In fact, in Isaiah 6, even Isaiah realizes what a wicked sinner he is.

"I said, “Too bad for me! I am destroyed, for my lips are contaminated by sin, and I live among people whose lips are contaminated by sin. My eyes have seen the king, the Lord who commands armies. 6 But then one of the seraphs flew toward me. In his hand was a hot coal he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Look, this coal has touched your lips. Your evil is removed; your sin is forgiven.” Isaiah 6:5-7

Even Isaiah himself had sin he needed to be burned right out of him.

So, now we get to why some verses say "by his stripes we are healed." It is because we are healed, in the atonement, of sin sickness. In fact, the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Bible, which Jesus and the disciples actually quoted more than the Hebrew Bible, and the Septuagint clearly recognizes Isa. 53:4 as referring to diseased Israel, and translates it as "He himself bore our sins."

Why did the Greek Jews translate it this way? Because they knew that not only did Israel suffer from sin sickness, God took them captive, burned down Solomon's temple, by way of the Babylonians, and these Jews did NOT want Israel to apostasies again.

The first thing in hermeneutics is to look at what some call "the plain meaning of the text." Some might say that means you can take each word literally, and that is the truth. In fact, we need to look at the original meaning, that the AUTHOR plainly intended, and that his AUDIENCE plainly understood. The Bible is a book for all seasons, but it first spoke to the Jews of that century, not to us, in the 21st century, with charlatans teaching things that were never meant to be to either Isaiah, to his audience, and certainly not to God.

This interpretation which the Word Faith and this OP holds is NOT about us claiming healing in the 21st century. It was about a prophecy that the Messiah would come and heal the diseased, sin sick nation of Israel, and when they rejected him, that the Gentiles would be healed of their sin-sickness. This interpretation, in which naming and claiming based on out of context verses (and by out of context, please remember the metaphor that Isaiah himself started with in chapter 1 of this book) which refer to sickness, which in fact is SIN SICKNESS. The Jews knew this in the 3rd century BC when the put the Hebrew into Greek.

Further, if you want to look down to Jesus time, after Christ died on the cross, why were the epistles not written telling people to name and claim their healing? Because, they knew the atonement did NOT contain healing. (Yes, healing happened, but not BECAUSE it was in the atonement). Even if you want to suddenly juxtapose all those verses about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, our iniquities, with a few weak lines about healing, it simply does not bear the weight of creating an entire doctrine, in fact and entire religious movement, based on healing (and claiming wealth, of course!)

The truth is, Isaiah is about Jesus coming to redeem his people from their sins. That is the meaning of the atonement. No Jew, in Isaiah's day, in Jesus day, or even today would pull healing out of those verses. And no Christian should either.

Pray for healing, and I hope God grants it. But, it is simply NOT part of the atonement.

It is very much part of the atonement.
Would you care to show the relationship between sin and physical sickness, because you weren't far from saying the same thing.

Mat 8:15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

The above verse is clearly pointing to the same verse you claim is talking about a spiritual sickness, which the bible does not say, only in the new testament, Jesus is NOT healing the people's souls of sin, (if you are referring to cleansing the soul of sin) God did that when they confessed their sins during water baptism, but He was, without any doubt, healing ALL who were PHYSICALLY SICK OR DISEASED.
If you want to refer to casing out evil spirit as cleansing of the soul, that would be fine for the weaknesses, but sicknesses is simply referring to physical sicknesses and diseases.
To say anything else is to make the bible say only what you want it to say, not what God is saying.

 

[know1]

One last simple thing to think on:

The basic reason why healing is not included in the atonement is simple. Christ died to atone for our sins. We are saved when we believe this. We are never accused in the Bible of not having enough faith or doubting our salvation, if we believe Christ died on the cross for our sins.

But neither healing, nor prosperity are included in the atonement, or it would indeed have to be perfect healing, and every Christian a rich person, from the time they are saved. People are not always healed, including those who believe this twisting of Scripture, and God uses that for good.


So again – we are saved when we believe in the atonement. I would hope that this is generally agreed upon, no matter what their denominational background.

BUT, we are not automatically healed, nor do we automatically become rich when we believe in the atonement. The atonement is about sin, not healing or riches.

NOT agreed.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but no one is automatically saved when or because they believe in the atonement, just like no one is automatically healed when they are born again.
It takes a personal faith in Jesus for salvation and it takes the same faith for healing.
One reason why healing is in the atonement is because sicknesses and diseases are a result of the CURSE of God. Of which, Jesus bore and became a curse, that all who believe might be healed, made whole, delivered, preserved, and saved.
That's what the Greek word means for "saved".
Are you going to tell me that is referring to the soul as well?
Again, you point to the fact that not all who receive Christ get a "perfect healing" (seriously?), but apparently you can show that everyone is born again when they believe in the atoning blood of Jesus.
You always look and point to the natural world, the same world the devil is god of, to prove a point, but WHEN someone backslides or turns from God, all of a sudden, they were never saved.
BUT THEY BELIEVED IN THE ATONEMENT, WHY AREN'T THEY SAVED ANYMORE?
Why, when it is written that all who believe shall be saved?
But healing by the blood of Jesus is also written.
You don't want to believe that, or others for that matter, because you have to look at the natural world for proof to back up your assertion. Not what is written, but what is happening in the natural world.
It is sad to see so many looking to the natural to determine what the bible says, or using it to overrule what is written.
Making the physical evidence truer than the word of God.

 

[stonesoffire]

Increase our faith?



God has shown us such mercy that we do not lose courage as we do the work he has given us. 2 Indeed, we refuse to make use of shameful underhanded methods, employing deception or distorting God’s message. On the contrary, by making very clear what the truth is, we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 So if indeed our Good News is veiled, it is veiled only to those in the process of being lost. 4 They do not come to trust because the god of the ‘olam hazeh has blinded their minds, in order to prevent them from seeing the light shining from the Good News about the glory of the Messiah, who is the image of God. 5 For what we are proclaiming is not ourselves, but the Messiah Yeshua as Lord, with ourselves as slaves for you because of Yeshua. 6 For it is the God who once said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has made his light shine in our hearts, the light of the knowledge of God’s glory shining in the face of the Messiah Yeshua.

7 But we have this treasure in clay jars, so that it will be evident that such overwhelming power comes from God and not from us. 8 We have all kinds of troubles, but we are not crushed; we are perplexed, yet not in despair; 9 persecuted, yet not abandoned; knocked down, yet not destroyed. 10 We always carry in our bodies the dying of Yeshua, so that the life of Yeshua may be manifested in our bodies too. 11 For we who are alive are always being handed over to death for Yeshua’s sake, so that Yeshua’s life also might be manifested in our mortal bodies. 12 Thus death is at work in us but life in you.

13 The Tanakh says, “I trusted, therefore I spoke.”[a] Since we have that same Spirit who enables us to trust, we also trust and therefore speak; 14 because we know that he who raised the Lord Yeshua will also raise us with Yeshua and bring us along with you into his presence. 15 All this is for your sakes, so that as grace flows out to more and more people, it may cause thanksgiving to overflow and bring glory to God.

16 This is why we do not lose courage. Though our outer self is heading for decay, our inner self is being renewed daily. 17 For our light and transient troubles are achieving for us an everlasting glory whose weight is beyond description. 18 We concentrate not on what is seen but on what is not seen, since things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal.

I can understand increase our faith Pin. And Paul did have the cares of the fellowships on him, but the thorn is defined as blows from the enemy. The Word buffeting is used to give the meaning. It sounds to me like tormenting spirits. And I can understand why this would be, due to the power and authority Paul moved out of.

It also shows his complete dependence upon the Lord, and that he would not make a move without His approval. That's if indeed, blows were from demonic spirits.

 

[joaniemarie]

It is very much part of the atonement.
Would you care to show the relationship between sin and physical sickness, because you weren't far from saying the same thing.

Mat 8:15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

The above verse is clearly pointing to the same verse you claim is talking about a spiritual sickness, which the bible does not say, only in the new testament, Jesus is NOT healing the people's souls of sin, (if you are referring to cleansing the soul of sin) God did that when they confessed their sins during water baptism, but He was, without any doubt, healing ALL who were PHYSICALLY SICK OR DISEASED.
If you want to refer to casing out evil spirit as cleansing of the soul, that would be fine for the weaknesses, but sicknesses is simply referring to physical sicknesses and diseases.
To say anything else is to make the bible say only what you want it to say, not what God is saying.

Good post Know1.

 

[wolfwint]

NOT agreed.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but no one is automatically saved when or because they believe in the atonement, just like no one is automatically healed when they are born again.
It takes a personal faith in Jesus for salvation and it takes the same faith for healing.
One reason why healing is in the atonement is because sicknesses and diseases are a result of the CURSE of God. Of which, Jesus bore and became a curse, that all who believe might be healed, made whole, delivered, preserved, and saved.
That's what the Greek word means for "saved".
Are you going to tell me that is referring to the soul as well?
Again, you point to the fact that not all who receive Christ get a "perfect healing" (seriously?), but apparently you can show that everyone is born again when they believe in the atoning blood of Jesus.
You always look and point to the natural world, the same world the devil is god of, to prove a point, but WHEN someone backslides or turns from God, all of a sudden, they were never saved.
BUT THEY BELIEVED IN THE ATONEMENT, WHY AREN'T THEY SAVED ANYMORE?
Why, when it is written that all who believe shall be saved?
But healing by the blood of Jesus is also written.
You don't want to believe that, or others for that matter, because you have to look at the natural world for proof to back up your assertion. Not what is written, but what is happening in the natural world.
It is sad to see so many looking to the natural to determine what the bible says, or using it to overrule what is written.
Making the physical evidence truer than the word of God.

Why then this is not taught from the NT writers to the believers. Also you cant find this teaching in the churchhistory, if I am not wrong.
What sense makes a statement: you are already physical healed, but you see in your body that you are not healed.
What makes sense to pray for healing, if there is a statement you are already healed.
But I can say, and the Holy Spirit gives this assurance to me, that I am saved through Jesus gives his life for me.
This is a fact.
This statement you are already physical healed is a fake, solong you are still suffer in your deaseases.
And to tell that you have not enough faith, this why you are still sick, is an cheap excuse for a not function of this claim. A claim which God never has prommissed us while we live on earth.

 

[1ofthem]

To state healing isn't included in the atonement is unbelief.

Paul was being buffeted. Suffering blows. What do you think that means?

There are degrees of both faith and unbelief. I did not say she wasn't a Christian. I did not say she was deceived. Nor did I say she was in captivity to demonic beings, yet she has said these things to me.

And there is a lot of gossip being banded about.

I can see no promise of physical healing in the atonement. I read your OP and can't see it, so if I'm overlooking it, please point it out to me.

I think, it is talking about Spiritual healing in the atonement.

If the atonement covered physical healing then wouldn't anyone who was sick be immediately healed as soon as they got saved, and then never get sick again with any type of illness not even a cold?

I do believe in healing, just not the name it and claim it kind. I know that God has the power to heal anyone at anytime, but he does this according to his will. We all have our own walks in life and God uses us for his glory and his purpose...we are to seek God's will in our life not our own. I'm not saying not to pray for healing. I would like to see all Christians healed. So Yes, let's all pray and ask for healing for all of our brothers and sisters...but we need to be sure to remember that if it doesn't happen, then it doesn't necessarily mean we don't have enough faith. It could just mean it is not the Lord's will.

So honestly, that is why I don't like you're statement about unbelief. Too me, implying that because a person doesn't get healed, they must have less faith than a person who does get healed... is just plain wrong.

With Paul, I have no idea what his thorn was. All I know is that it he was buffeted by the enemy and God did not take it away. It was God's will for Paul, to suffer with what ever it was. He couldn't just name it and claim it so he listened and understood when God said my grace is sufficient for you. Now, I am in no way saying that all sick people are experiencing what Paul did. I am just saying sometimes we can pray all we want, but it is just not God's will.

 

[davida]

People would rather blame God than take responsibility for their own lack of faith and unbelief.

 

[valiant]

People would rather blame God than take responsibility for their own lack of faith and unbelief.

BUT GOD IS 'to blame' if you mean by that that HE is responsible for people not being healed. Not that we can blame God, for we must recognise that He has a right to heal whom He will. Our faith and unbelief is only secondary in the matter.

 

[1ofthem]

People would rather blame God than take responsibility for their own lack of faith and unbelief.

Would they now? You know this because?

Seriously though, let's get real here for a second, show me where anyone is blaming God for anything? We are to follow God and seek after his will...whatever it may be we are to glory and praise him in all things. So show me the place where anyone here has blamed or God for anything.

 

[1ofthem]

BUT GOD IS 'to blame' if you mean by that that HE is responsible for people not being healed. Not that we can blame God, for we must recognise that He has a right to heal whom He will. Our faith and unbelief is only secondary in the matter.

I agree...I just don't see it as it is as any blame to God and sometimes it is no blame to anyone else either...

Sometimes, it is what it is...It rains on the just and the unjust. We don't blame God for anything. We learn to accept his will in our lives no matter what it is and we know that he works all things for our good if we are called according to his purpose.