Healing in the Atonement?

[stonesoffire]

No one is saying God does not heal. At least, I am not! But if it is not God’s will, it won’t happen. It is not automatically included in the atonement. See my post above!

As for your first copy and paste, seriously??? Here I sit, with serious debliatiting Rheumatoid Disease, and asthma now active because of a cold, plus about 3 other diseases. I have suffered so badly, I cannot get out of bed, feed myself or go to the bathroom on my own. I KNOW what suffering is. I also understand the accompanying depression that comes with being chronically ill.

Yet, you have the nerve to post:



When I speak of healing, it is from 20 years + of pain and disabilty. It is from a point of someone who was prayed over, by Word Faith people. It was myself believing God for a physcial healing that never came, although the doctors have been instrumental in gettting me up and active.

I never tell people any kind of platitudes! Everything I say comes directly out of the Bible, and from my own experiences not just of pain and suffering, but from how none of this Word Faith stuff works! And the people I know that claimed healing, when they had cancer, and died because they did not accept medical treatment. And I am not the only one in this forum who knew someone who was deceived by these deliberate twistings of Scripture, especially when it came to divine healing of cancer, and died because of these lies!

And they amazing miracles God worked in my life’s through sickness, and how God walked me out of depression, caused by the pain and suffering. All the years God taught me in his Word, as I read daily, and the Holy Spirit quickened the words I was reading, and showed me how God was with me, he knew my pain, and I should praise him anyway!

Word Faith and hypergrace are unbilblical lies from the devil. We need to seek God, in prayer and in his Word, not seek power for healing.



That is the same story as Simon the magician in Acts 8. That is what the first charlatan you posted said.

“Now in that city was a man named Simon, who had been practicing magic and amazing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great. 10 All the people, from the least to the greatest, paid close attention to him, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called ‘Great.’” 11 And they paid close attention to him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. 12 But when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they began to be baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip constantly, and when he saw the signs and great miracles that were occurring, he was amazed.” Acts 8:9-13

”Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power too, so that everyone I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could acquire God’s gift with money! 21 You have no share or part in this matter because your heart is not right before God! 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart. 23 For I see that you are bitterly envious and in bondage to sin.” 24 But Simon replied, “You pray to the Lord for me so that nothing of what you have said may happen to me.” Acts 8:18-24

Your teachers are Simon the Magician, wanting power for all the wrong reasons! You are Simon the Magician, promoting false teachers who are seeking power, instead of Jesus!

Beware the false teachers and their adherents, who want you to buy their books, contribute to their ministries, when all they have is a twisted and false gospel and a different gospel.

I am still waiting for YOU to post Scriptures. Your first book, written by Simon the Magician, does not have ONE Bible verse. The second book has 2 addresses thrown into to look spiritual. Well, we are no longer deceived by addresses. We want proper exegesis of the Word. Which you are completely unable to give!

I know your suffering Angela. I too have a debilitating disease. Plus it's rare and not much known about. It destroys nerves to thecspinal cord that affects many organs of my body.

Just recently, after participating in the meetings, again received a touch from the Lord.

I could not lay flat flat period on my back. Had to have two pillows under my head. And I had to tip my whole body back to drink a coke or whatever.

I didnt feel anything except a release from pain in the middle of my back. This has been at least 4 times now that something has changed. So my healing is a recovery type. Am not stopping.


This started in 1988 when injured at my work. I can truthfully say, I was half hearted in seeking healing because I had pain pills that kept me comfortable. Until my heart failed and nearly died twice. Now have a pacemaker.

Am not afraid to pass on, but I haven't finished my course.

Ask yourself....have you sought healing with everything in you? Selah

oh, forgot this...I can lay flat on the floor. My family is my witness. My doctor does not yet know.

 

[tourist]

Healing is in the oil and wine

Exactly, how does that work?

 

[tourist]

I know your suffering Angela. I too have a debilitating disease. Plus it's rare and not much known about. It destroys nerves to thecspinal cord that affects many organs of my body.

Just recently, after participating in the meetings, again received a touch from the Lord.

I could not lay flat flat period on my back. Had to have two pillows under my head. And I had to tip my whole body back to drink a coke or whatever.

I didnt feel anything except a release from pain in the middle of my back. This has been at least 4 times now that something has changed. So my healing is a recovery type. Am not stopping.


This started in 1988 when injured at my work. I can truthfully say, I was half hearted in seeking healing because I had pain pills that kept me comfortable. Until my heart failed and nearly died twice. Now have a pacemaker.

Am not afraid to pass on, but I haven't finished my course.

Ask yourself....have you sought healing with everything in you? Selah

oh, forgot this...I can lay flat on the floor. My family is my witness. My doctor does not yet know.

No, you haven't finished the course yet but are still fighting the good fight. You are a survivor type and so is Angela. It's been a blessing for me to get to know you both. We are not strangers to pain but with the grace of God we will all cross the finish line with our heads held high keeping our eyes on the prize.

 

[joaniemarie]

Theres a lot said about leprousy in the OT Angela. It's a disease found in the blood that manifests as corruption in the body. Unclean. The life of one, animal or man is found in the blood. The blood of Jesus, is of God Himself. Uncorrupted eternal life is found there. If you can receive this truth, it will change your thinking.

We have His Spiritual DNA, in our spirit. Am sure you have seen the Greek explanation of His Spirit intertwining within , like braiding, another English word to describe.

No death is present. Pure blood teeming of life! Or pure life. That is what we have within. If we walk in this, walk in Spirit, as spiritual men and women of God, do you not think that life will affect our souls, and our bodies? Nor do we live in the lust of the flesh. That is not a sexual lust alone!

How would you explain this?

If that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, lives in you, then He will quicken your mortal body by that same Spirit, that raised Him from death. Life!

We aren't to dwell in, "dead to sin"... ...but "alive unto God". It's time for ressurrection life's rising!


I did forget to make my point about atonement and leprousy. If an animals sacrifice can make ones blood clean again, healing the leper, How much more the blood of Jesus, Son of God cleanse our blood unto life!

Amen. And this happens as we are daily transformed by the renewing of our minds. We can't do this in our flesh. It doesn't work to try to have power in our flesh because we are now called to walk in the Spirit and learn how to be who we are IN Christ. Born again not of corruptible seed but incorruptible. When we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh... Those lusts are also fear.... confusion., weakness .... sickness.....

We were not given a spirit of fear... we have been given the Spirit of POWER and LOVE and a SOUND MIND. yet many of us are still learning how to walk in those gifts and it doesn't happen over night. We grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ daily.

Our minds are not always thinking soundly., Our minds need renewing daily. We need the water of the Word as the Holy Spirit also gives us those rivers of living water over flowing as John 7:38 says.

"He who believes in Me as the Scripture said... From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water..."

 

[Angela53510]

Isaiah 53:5 he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we ""are healed"".
(NOTE: Pre Atonement ""are healed"")

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye ""were healed"".
(NOTE: Post Atonement ""were healed"")

I see healing in the Atonement.

Goodness! Did you ever read my post above?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/163639-healing-atonement.html#post3465052

I also dealt with verse 5 extensively in another post, found here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-misconceptions-about-god-16.html#post3464115

Read a little about hermeneutics which is the proper way to read the Bible, we simply do not pull verses out of context. And clearly, when Peter was writing he was talking about SIN, and we were healed from our SIN! Read the whole verse, and read all of Isaiah! Isaiah was sent call Israel to repentance, to heal the nation of their sin sickness, not their physical illness. So sad, that people are so deluded by these false teachers, and their refusal to look at context!

 

[stonesoffire]

Our born again Spirit lives in a fallen body of death!

I will never say that the Lord won't heal, but do you really want to be perfected in health in the imperfect body you now inhabit on Earth?

Don't you long for your New heart to be placed into it's new glorified habitation?

can you explain the high calling of God PennEd?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

can you explain the high calling of God PennEd?

does that high calling say everyone will be healed?

 

[stonesoffire]

does that high calling say everyone will be healed?

can you explain the high calling EG?

 

[PennEd]

can you explain the high calling of God PennEd?

Not just lip service. I am genuinely happy you feel better.

Our highest calling should be to spread the good news of Jesus Christ's birth, death and resurrection. And to Love God with all our heart, body, soul, and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves.

What do you consider to be our high calling?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I would call this thread: "Is Physical Healing In The Atonement? " answer : no.

 

[stonesoffire]

Not just lip service. I am genuinely happy you feel better.

Our highest calling should be to spread the good news of Jesus Christ's birth, death and resurrection. And to Love God with all our heart, body, soul, and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves.

What do you consider to be our high calling?

Ressurrection life.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

When you’re sick, the last thing you want to hear are pithy, powerless platitudes from people who are healthy. What you want to hear is good news from someone who has experience healing the sick. This is why I recommend two outstanding books on healing.

Diving Healing Made Simple, by Praying Medic
The first book is probably the most practical, down-to-earth book on healing you’ll ever read. There’s no hype, just good instruction from a paramedic who has met and healed many sick people. (An ambulance medic who wrote a book about divine healing. Brilliant!) Here’s a taste:

God is the only one who receives the glory for the works that we do. But the fact remains that Jesus told his disciples to heal the sick. He did not tell them to ask the Father to heal the sick. He told them to do it. (p.129)

Divine Healing Made Simple deals with a number of myths (“God gave me this sickness to teach me character”) and misperceptions (“I’m not good enough to be healed”) that some have about healing. It also addresses lame excuses (“I don’t have the gift of healing”) and puzzling questions (“Why do people known for their healing success sometimes get sick?”).
But the best thing about this book may be the many practical suggestions on how to minister and receiving healing – suggestions that are based on Praying Medic’s own experience in the field. Here are two:

Among my friends who have the highest success rates in healing, there is agreement on one approach that seems to work best. It involves commanding sickness or pain to leave and commanding healing to take its place. Don’t beg or plead with God to heal anyone. The most common mistake people make is begging God to heal. The second is quitting too soon… The vast majority of healings I’ve seen came because I stood there looking like an idiot, repeatedly commanding an injury to be healed until it finally was healed. (p.105)

There aren’t any formulas to this – it’s all faith – but there are definitely some poor ways to pray for healing. As I have explained elsewhere, you can pray like a beggar (“Oh please God”) or a commander (“Sickness be gone!”), but the former approach is seldom based in faith.

Divine Healing Made Simple is a practical and prophetic book that will inspire you to rise out of the rut of powerless religion and take the sort of faith-risks that were commonplace for Jesus and his first-century followers.

Healing the Sick, by T.L. Osborn
With more than a million copies in print, chances are you’ve read this book. It’s a classic. Like the book above it’s a solid introduction to the subject of healing written by someone with considerable experience. TL Osborn regularly ministered to tens of thousands of people at a time and typically saw amazing healings in his meetings (cripples running, blind seeing, etc.).

In the Bible we are told that supernatural signs and wonders will follow the preaching of the gospel (Mark 16:20). Miracles happen among those who hear the gospel because the gospel is the power of God for salvation and healing (Rom 1:17). The vast majority of people who were healed at TL Osborn’s meetings weren’t prayed for. They simply received the gospel with faith and were healed. It’s a sign to make you wonder.

At the end of this book (I have the 1992 edition), there is a long chapter called “Our Witness.” It’s a record of evidence of supernatural healings, such as this one:

Juan Santos… had been shot through the spine, destroying his spinal column and the nerves below his waist. It left him totally paralyzed… He dragged himself on the ground with his hands… His head also shook because he had attempted suicide by hitting himself with a club; but the blow only caused the palsy. He could hardly talk because his tongue and throat were partially paralyzed… He was instantly healed and is now as perfect as any man could be. (p.290)

This book is a stick of dynamite for blowing up the dams of doubt in your mind. The stories in it will stir your faith. You’ll read them and think, “If one man can get healed, so can I!”

And this attitude is important because faith and doubt are contagious. As the saying goes, “Feed your faith and starve your doubts.” These books will feed your faith. They’ll do it by painting a picture of life as Jesus defines it.
The last time I saw a healing was this morning. Healing the sick should be normal for a follower of Jesus – Jesus said so (Mark 16:18). But it won’t be normal for you if don’t believe it or if you don’t know how to go about it.

You may think, “This is not for me. I’m not that kind of person. I don’t heal people.” Don’t you believe it! Healing is your Christ-bought prerogative. It is your blessed right as a dearly-loved child of God. If you’ve never seen a healing, don’t feel condemned. Instead, renew your mind and start thanking Jesus in advance for the gift that is already yours in Christ.

So do you tell people who were not healed that their sins are not atoned for?

 

[PennEd]

Ressurrection life.

I kinda agree with you here. Too many Christians live like they aren't eternally Childrfen of God. And in a sense, eternal life started for us the moment we are born again.

But I don't think living victoriously in Christ means physical, healing of our flesh, or monetary prosperity, although sometimes it can. This is really the dividing line I'm coming to understand with this total atonement doctrine in the TEMPORAL physical life.

That's why I say being used of God to bring others to Christ IS THE HIGHEST CALLING. If my persecution/infirmaty/death were to change the eternal destiny of even one person, wouldn't that be to God's glory and my good?

 

[PennEd]

So do you tell people who were not healed that their sins are not atoned for?

This is a fair, and important question.

After all, if the atonement is for healing, and someone isn't healed who has trusted in Jesus, then would it not follow that the atonement also failed to cover their sin?

 

[joaniemarie]

Our threads are sort of saying the same things so I'll repost for PennEd

Originally Posted by PennEd

Joanie, I have to say, I find your views a little schizophrenic.

For example, I'm pretty sure you believe Revelation, and end Times doctrine that is pretty close to mine.

[FONT=&quot]I'm a pre tribulation rapture lady.

And although it CANNOT be said often enough that GOD is the one in control, Adam ceded the title deed to the Earth to satan when he sinned and fell.
[FONT=&quot]I see in the Bible (and posted already) that God is in control but He gave us a free will and He gave the earth to Adam and he gave it over to satan and sin entered in. satan took the earth by default and we humans have been suffering ever since. [/FONT]

We know satan has the title deed for several reasons. 1. Satan tempted Jesus with the title deed WITHOUT GOING TO THE CROSS. If satan didn't have the deed then his temptation would NOT have been a temptation at all. It would be like me 'tempting" you by offering to give you ownership of Manhattan Island for a buck. You wouldn't be tempted at all.
[FONT=&quot]
Agree. Jesus had to save us from our sins. satan is the god of this world... 1John 5:19 [/FONT]

2 Well AFTER Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension John was caught up to Heaven and wept convulsively because no one could open the Title deed.

Now I know we have people here that believe the Title deed has ALREADY been opened by Jesus. And some of those people think WE need to make the world better and better and THEN Jesus will return. I'm pretty sure you don't believe that.
[FONT=&quot]
No., I don't believe that you are correct. Jesus won the battle and freed us from the power of sin but NOT the presence of sin. We still deal with tribulation coming from 3 places.. 1. The world.. 2. The flesh..3. The devil. Not from God. He sent Jesus and saved us from the power of sin in our lives but the only way to walk in the power is when we do it by the Spirit and not in the power of our flesh. [/FONT]

But I'm confused as to why, since I think you believe satan still has the deed, you ALSO believe we won't be persecuted by him in MANY diverse ways? Especially since Jesus TOLD us we would be persecuted.
[FONT=&quot]
That's because I do not believe we won't be persecuted by satan...the world and the flesh.. WE ARE DAILY. But Jesus tells us we have the victory when we walk by faith and not by sight. When we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We hold the ground Jesus already gained for us by faith in His finished work for us. (not by our works for us)[/FONT]

Now I believe we are, but that God will use the afflictions and persecutions for His Glory and our ultimate good.

[FONT=&quot]God doesn't send us confusion, sickness or death. Those things come from 3 places... world-flesh-devil. God takes the things meant for evil.... and in Christ has made us over comers IN Him. By faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross., we are MORE than conquerors through Christ who loved us and gave Himself for us. [/FONT]

Do I have your Eschatology right in that regard, and if so, how do you square the 2 positions you hold?

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My Eschatology is Jesus took the power of sin out of our lives and that we no longer have to be at sins mercy. Yes, we are in the presence of sin in this world but we are not under it's power any longer. Jesus has taken the power of the devil away so we are no longer under his foot either. But many of us will not experience this freedom because we insist on seeing life through the eyes of the flesh and not the Spirit and by our born again spirit man. We have been made actual new creations in Christ.

We only have our new imperishable bodies to get. Our flesh is the shell and we are not our flesh. We are new creations in Christ with earth suits sort of speak. Our bodies are a shell. But we have His seed in us that needs to be watered by the Word. We have already died and our life is hid with Jesus. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in His imperishable body. Jesus is the first of many brethren. He came to earth and became one of us. He is sitting in heaven with His imperishable body like the ones we will be getting.

We have daily access to the power of the Holy Spirit living and moving in our lives when we walk by faith and in the Spirit. I only began to learn this a few years ago. I never knew how to walk in the Spirit so my old way of seeing life (old manner of life and living) was how I lived and saw Jesus. We must be transformed each day by the renewing of our minds. That is a job we do IN COOPERATION with the HolySpirit. He will not force us to do this.

Why don't we Christians have victory in our lives today? Because we give the ground Jesus died to give us over to the devil because we believe the lie that we are sinners and not sons. We allow the enemy to condemn us and lie to us and we willingly believe God is not for us but against us. The lie satan told in the garden to Adam and Eve is still going strong today. The only thing the devil can do to us is lie to us. And if we don't resist him., he doesn't have to flee. Many of us have believed his lies and he has access to our daily lives.[/FONT]

 

[Angela53510]

Theres a lot said about leprousy in the OT Angela. It's a disease found in the blood that manifests as corruption in the body. Unclean. The life of one, animal or man is found in the blood. The blood of Jesus, is of God Himself. Uncorrupted eternal life is found there. If you can receive this truth, it will change your thinking.

We have His Spiritual DNA, in our spirit. Am sure you have seen the Greek explanation of His Spirit intertwining within , like braiding, another English word to describe.

No death is present. Pure blood teeming of life! Or pure life. That is what we have within. If we walk in this, walk in Spirit, as spiritual men and women of God, do you not think that life will affect our souls, and our bodies? Nor do we live in the lust of the flesh. That is not a sexual lust alone!

How would you explain this?

If that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, lives in you, then He will quicken your mortal body by that same Spirit, that raised Him from death. Life!

We aren't to dwell in, "dead to sin"... ...but "alive unto God". It's time for ressurrection life's rising!


I did forget to make my point about atonement and leprousy. If an animals sacrifice can make ones blood clean again, healing the leper, How much more the blood of Jesus, Son of God cleanse our blood unto life!

Oh wow! Not a single Bible verse to support anything you have said!

My thought is neither the ancient Hebrews, nor the disciples in Jesus time knew anything about DNA. Period! As for “spiritual” DNA, wow, where on earth did you get that in the Bible? Oh right, no such thing.

I have read this kind of garbage when I was a new Christian. It so appealed to my human side. But it is death to the spirit not life.

So, you postulate some imaginary DNA, and that we are not dead spirituality. I can buy that we are made alive in Christ.

“And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.” Eph. 2:1-10 NET

Yes, we are alive in Christ! Thats what is all about. I could post so many more verses about this. Christ has written on our hearts. But even this passage says we will do this in the coming ages. Yet, God is changing our spirit, as we walk with him.

”Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on ourhearts, to be known and read by all.3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.[FONT=&quot]4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” 2 Cor. 3:1-6

So, we can certainly agree the Holy Spirit gives us life in our spirits. And I just figured out you did post a verse, but forgot the address. Romans 8:11. Sadly, again, pulled out of context.

Do you know what Romans 8 is about? It is about the “NOT YET” I talked about in another post. It is about the fulfillment of all God’s promises when Jesus returns. In other words, Paul is talking to believers (the Romans and everyone till he returns) about the eschatological hope we have in Christ. So we ALREADY have been changed in our spirits. But, we await the redemption of our bodies. You must read all of Romans 8 to understand this. When Paul talks about our moral bodies in verse 11, it must be read as a future hope. I’m going to post a huge swath of verses from Romans 8. Read it here, or read it in your own Bible, along with the rest of Romans 8.

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit. 6 For the outlook of the flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is your life because of righteousness. 11 Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh 13 (for if you live according to the flesh, you will die), but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 And if children, then heirs (namely, heirs of God and also fellow heirs with Christ)—if indeed we suffer with him so we may also be glorified with him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the coming glory that will be revealed to us. 19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility—not willingly but because of God who subjected it—in hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. 23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance.” Romans 8:1-25 NET

Paul is clearly saying that our mortal bodies being redeemed is something we WAIT for. Creation waits for it, we wait, and we eagerly await it with endurance. This is a NOT YET promise. This is making future promises into present promises.

How do I know this is true? Because, if our mortal bodies were presently redeemed, not only would there be no sickness, no asking for healing, but we would never die! And the Bible acknowledges we will die in this life! [/FONT]

“I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Cor. 15:50-56

I don’t think it gets any clearer than this. I don’t know if you know anything about verb tenses in English. Rather than having a specific form, you just add the words “shall” or “will” and violà - the Future tense.

Five of the verses above talk about WHEN - in the future! Our bodies will not be mortal. They all use the future tense. When Christ returns, then we will not know sickness or dying, and we will have imperishable bodies.

“We SHALL not sleep:” (v51)
”we SHALL all be changed” (v51)
”dead WILL be raised imperishable (v52)
”we shall be changed” (v52)
”then SHALL come to pass (v54)

WHEN? The future! We have not yet reached that point. Again, you are forgetting we are in the inbetween times. Between the beginning of the End, which Jesus inaugurated with his death and resurrection, and the END of the END when he returns. That was the expectation of the early church. We are NOT YET raised into incorruptible bodies.

But my hope, is that I KNOW, one day we will! I look forward to that eschatological event with all my hearts. And I read my whole Bible, not false teachers who pull verses out of context, and make up false doctrines to lead astray, even the elect!

”[FONT=&quot]For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Matt 24:24

Jesus warned about this! Do not be lead astray by false promises that healing is in the atonement, when it is promised for after the return of Christ - to all! No needing power, no having “more” faith, and certainly no people dying because they have believed the Word Faith lie, instead of the truth of the Bible![/FONT][/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

I kinda agree with you here. Too many Christians live like they aren't eternally Childrfen of God. And in a sense, eternal life started for us the moment we are born again.

But I don't think living victoriously in Christ means physical, healing of our flesh, or monetary prosperity, although sometimes it can. This is really the dividing line I'm coming to understand with this total atonement doctrine in the TEMPORAL physical life.

That's why I say being used of God to bring others to Christ IS THE HIGHEST CALLING. If my persecution/infirmaty/death were to change the eternal destiny of even one person, wouldn't that be to God's glory and my good?

If one comes to the Lord for any reason, of course it would be for good.

I was still working med-surg when a friend of mine came to my floor. She was just newly dianosed with bowel cancer. She had surgery but the cancer wasn't all removed so chemo and radiation was started.

She suffered terribly for several years. But, she had great faith that she would be healed. This was back in the early '80's. My faith wasn't strong, but I had some faith that God could heal. Was healed as a child from burns, and then asthma. And grew up in a home of this faith. But, up and down.

Other friends of hers was supporting her in teachings of WOF. What happened that I could plainly see, was her family was suffering financially, her husband was under a great burden of caring for everything with small children. and she gave up.

Now I know she entered glory with victory! The whole thing made a tremendous impression on many for good. But, others only saw her body and the suffering. And our town funeral director told me she was like a starved bird.

There were few ministries of,power like today. And some healings. A notable one of MS in our area.

So which made the greater impression Penn Ed?

Jesus healed all that came to Him. There's a key I believe in that sentence.

I can tell you which caused a revival.

 

[stonesoffire]

Oh wow! Not a single Bible verse to support anything you have said!

My thought is neither the ancient Hebrews, nor the disciples in Jesus time knew anything about DNA. Period! As for “spiritual” DNA, wow, where on earth did you get that in the Bible? Oh right, no such thing.

I have read this kind of garbage when I was a new Christian. It so appealed to my human side. But it is death to the spirit not life.

So, you postulate some imaginary DNA, and that we are not dead spirituality. I can buy that we are made alive in Christ.

“And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.” Eph. 2:1-10 NET

Yes, we are alive in Christ! Thats what is all about. I could post so many more verses about this. Christ has written on our hearts. But even this passage says we will do this in the coming ages. Yet, God is changing our spirit, as we walk with him.

”Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on ourhearts, to be known and read by all.3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” 2 Cor. 3:1-6

So, we can certainly agree the Holy Spirit gives us life in our spirits. And I just figured out you did post a verse, but forgot the address. Romans 8:11. Sadly, again, pulled out of context.

Do you know what Romans 8 is about? It is about the “NOT YET” I talked about in another post. It is about the fulfillment of all God’s promises when Jesus returns. In other words, Paul is talking to believers (the Romans and everyone till he returns) about the eschatological hope we have in Christ. So we ALREADY have been changed in our spirits. But, we await the redemption of our bodies. You must read all of Romans 8 to understand this. When Paul talks about our moral bodies in verse 11, it must be read as a future hope. I’m going to post a huge swath of verses from Romans 8. Read it here, or read it in your own Bible, along with the rest of Romans 8.

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit. 6 For the outlook of the flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is your life because of righteousness. 11 Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you.
12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh 13 (for if you live according to the flesh, you will die), but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 And if children, then heirs (namely, heirs of God and also fellow heirs with Christ)—if indeed we suffer with him so we may also be glorified with him.
18 For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the coming glory that will be revealed to us. 19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility—not willingly but because of God who subjected it—in hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. 23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance.” Romans 8:1-25 NET

Paul is clearly saying that our mortal bodies being redeemed is something we WAIT for. Creation waits for it, we wait, and we eagerly await it with endurance. This is a NOT YET promise. This is making future promises into present promises.

How do I know this is true? Because, if our mortal bodies were presently redeemed, not only would there be no sickness, no asking for healing, but we would never die! And the Bible acknowledges we will die in this life!

“I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Cor. 15:50-56

I don’t think it gets any clearer than this. I don’t know if you know anything about verb tenses in English. Rather than having a specific form, you just add the words “shall” or “will” and violà - the Future tense.

Five of the verses above talk about WHEN - in the future! Our bodies will not be mortal. They all use the future tense. When Christ returns, then we will not know sickness or dying, and we will have imperishable bodies.

“We SHALL not sleep:” (v51)
”we SHALL all be changed” (v51)
”dead WILL be raised imperishable (v52)
”we shall be changed” (v52)
”then SHALL come to pass (v54)

WHEN? The future! We have not yet reached that point. Again, you are forgetting we are in the inbetween times. Between the beginning of the End, which Jesus inaugurated with his death and resurrection, and the END of the END when he returns. That was the expectation of the early church. We are NOT YET raised into incorruptible bodies.

But my hope, is that I KNOW, one day we will! I look forward to that eschatological event with all my hearts. And I read my whole Bible, not false teachers who pull verses out of context, and make up false doctrines to lead astray, even the elect!

”For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Matt 24:24

Jesus warned about this! Do not be lead astray by false promises that healing is in the atonement, when it is promised for after the return of Christ - to all! No needing power, no having “more” faith, and certainly no people dying because they have believed the Word Faith lie, instead of the truth of the Bible!

Word of faith in my understanding, is to speak the Word to create faith. I don't know if this is true or not.

but, I do know that out of faith in God, when you speak His promises, there is power to perform. Faith being a substance in heavenly realms, that God sees and is drawn to, to perform the word spoken.


I can't help what you question. And honestly I thought that you would remember the OT verses about leprousy. So didn't post them. Was looking at it last night.

So continue on, and I will also.

Do you really think the demons have any power to heal? Steal, kill, destroy.

 

[Angela53510]

I just wanted to repost the theological comments I made about the "ALREADY" and the "NOT YET!" I know a few people read it, but it needs to be read by everyone.


"Here are some non-Biblical words, the ALREADY and the NOT YET! But the principles are found everywhere in the NT, and they are ignored by the Word Faith movement. We are NOT YET in our glorified bodies, where there will be no sickness or tears anymore.

Jesus announced the coming Kingdom as having arrived with His own coming. The Spirit's coming in fullness and power were also signs that the Kingdom had arrived.Yet, the End of this age apparently had not taken place. Evil and its effects are still very much in evidence.

Believers in the NT came to realize that Jesus had not come to usher in the "final" End, but the beginning of the End. Thus they came to see that with Jesus' death and resurrection, and with the coming of th eSpirit, the blessings and the Future had already come. In a sense, therefore, the End had already come. But in another sense, it had not yet come. Thus they saw the Kingdom, and salvation as both already and not yet.

The early believers saw themselves as truly eschatological people, who lived "between the times" that is between time of the beginning of the end, and the consummation of the End. There is a tension, living between the times, in which some things have been fulfilled, but others are promises to do with the glorification of our bodies, when Christ returns.


At the Lord's Supper, they celebrated their eschatological existence by proclaiming "the Lord's death until he comes."1 Cor. 11:26. They ALREADY knew God's friend full forgiveness, but they had NOT YET been perfected. (Phil. 3:7-14). ALREADY death was theirs (1 Cor. 3:220 YET they would still die (Phil. 3:20-22). ALREADY they lived in the Spirit, YET they still lived in the world where Satan could attack. ALREADY they had been justified and faced no condemnation, YET there was still to be a future judgment. They had been conditioned by the future; they knew its benefits, lived in its values. But they still had to live out these benefits and values in the present world.

The Corinthian church had errors, which the Word Faith movement is repeating, was to emphasize the ALREADY in such a way they almost denied the continuing presence of the world. They saw Christ only as exalted (which he is!) but not as crucified.They believed that the only thing that glorified God was signs and wonders and powers. Because God heals, he must heal everyone. There is no place for weakness or hunger or thirst or sickness in this kind of eschatological existence.

This false theology lay the the very heart of the Corinth rejection of Paul. His bodily weaknesses did not commend his apostleship. An apostle should be "spiritual, eloquent, living in glory, and perfect health. They rejected Paul and his theology of the cross, (with its ongoing suffering in the present age) because they saw themselves as more spiritual, redeemed from such weakness. In their view, Paul looked like anything but an apostle of their "glorious" Jesus.

Paul tries everything in his power to get them back to his gospel. In 1 Cor. 1:18-25, he reminds them that the gospel has as its very base a "crucified Messiah."

"8 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach[a] to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1 Cor. 1:18-25 ESV

For the Corinthians, that's like saying "fried ice." Messiah means "power, glory, miracles; crucifixion means weakness, shamed suffering. Thus, they gladly accepted false apostles who preached "a different gospel" with "another Jesus."

"For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough." 2 Cor. 11:4 ESV

Paul explains to them the true nature of apostleship, which has a glorious message, but it is proclaimed by a less-than-gloriousmessengers.

"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us." 2 Cor.4:7

In 2 Cor, chapters 10-13 Paul attacks their false teachers head on! I will only post a brief excerpt, but do read these chapters, realizing that Word Faith heresy was met straight on by the apostle Paul, who boasted in being foolish, and weak. Not strong, rich or healthy.

" I repeat, let no one think me foolish. But even if you do, accept me as a fool, so that I too may boast a little. 17 What I am saying with this boastful confidence, I say not as the Lord would[a] but as a fool.18 Since many boast according to the flesh, I too will boast. 19 For you gladly bear with fools, being wise yourselves! 20 For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face. 21 To my shame, I must say, we were too weak for that!
But whatever anyone else dares to boast of—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast of that." 2 Cor. 11:16-21

"But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:9-10

"since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you. 4 For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God.
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. 7 But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9 For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. Your restoration is what we pray for. 10 For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down." 2 Cor. 13:3-10

I wish I could just copy and paste all of chapters 10-13, they so powerfully rebuke the entire Word Faith heresy. We do not have perfect health or perfect wealth in this life time. But, are caught between the ALREADY and the NOT YET! The future is not this present age! Our bodies are not yet perfected. In this present age, even some of God's choicest servants continue to be perfected through suffering, as was the Son of God himself.

"Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him," Hebrews 5:8-9

Again, WHEN do we receive our perfect, resurrection bodies? When Jesus returns. John writes in Revelation, that we will not have mourning, nor crying nor pain anymore. Why? Because they have finally passed away. And notice, in this last book of the Bible, written last, and in the second last chapter, the use of "will" to say this is a future event. It did NOT happen when Christ was resurrected, but it WILL happen, when he returns! Or did all these people not have enough faith to blast away their pain?

"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling placeof God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Rev. 21:3-4

 

[BenFTW]

I don't know why individuals so well versed in the Bible and "hermeneutics" always seem to avoid where Isaiah 53:4 has been quoted in the New Testament in the context of healing.

Isaiah 53:4 King James Version (KJV)

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.


Matthew 8:13-17 King James Version (KJV)

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Now the reason I brought this back to verse 13 is to see the heart of Jesus. He was healing people all of the time. He is still alive today, His heart the same. As for the healing context we see Isaiah 53:4 being quoted in Mathew 8:17 as Jesus delivered people and "healed all that were sick."

Someone would have to be willfully ignorant, nearly deceptive, to say that physical healing is not found in Isaiah 53 (especially after being shown this before) and is only talking of "spiritual healing." Too many times have these verses been paralleled and unaddressed, ignored.

God, our Father in the OT presented Himself with a name that defines Him. Jehovah Rapha, the Lord that heals. It is His very nature to heal. All throughout Jesus' ministry He healed. We see God Almighty healing all of the time, throughout history. People often point to spiritual healing, but look at these verses by King David as he spoke about physical healing in the same breath as he spoke of spiritual healing.

Psalm 103:1-5 King James Version (KJV)

103 Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

God is faithful, he saves us from sin and sickness.