2 Peter 2 (Let's get into it)

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

He was pointing out that the Pharisaic idea of obtaining eternal life was wrong (they taught it was by keeping the Law). He was proving to the young man that he could not do it. No man receives eternal life by keeping the commandments, only by following Jesus

You have however made crystal clear that YOU believe it. God help you

That's not what these scriptures say.

it is clear to anyone who knows the Gospels that that was what His intention was.

But you cannot see the wood for the trees

 

[MattforJesus]

He was pointing out that the Pharisaic idea of obtaining eternal life was wrong (they taught it was by keeping the Law). He was proving to the young man that he could not do it. No man receives eternal life by keeping the commandments, only by following Jesus

You have however made crystal clear that YOU believe it. God help you

But when the rich man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life,Jesus said keep the commandments that have to do with love towards people,and sell all you have and give to the poor,for that is love.

The Bible says,anybody that names the name of Christ must depart from iniquity,and Jesus said some cannot dwell with Him for they were workers of inquity,and Jesus said if you love Him you will keep His commandments,and the love of God is this,that we keep His commandments,and His commandments are not grievous,and to obey is better than sacrifice,and we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish it,live up to it.

 

[Chris1975]

No it says, 'we are NOT of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and guard their souls.'

In other words 'we have believed'.

Here's the whole passage:

Hebrews 10
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. [SUP]36 [/SUP]For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: [SUP]37 [/SUP]“For yet a little while,
And He[SUP][j][/SUP] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the[SUP][k][/SUP] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[SUP][l][/SUP]


[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


The contrast is very clear. Those who remain in faith will receive the promise (v35,36,39)
Those who fall back fall into perdition (v38,39)

The writer of Hebrews says "we are those who believe" - simply stating that they (the writer or writers of Hebrews) are living by faith (they are in the faith). And by this an example to those who are reading the letter.

 

[valiant]

But when the rich man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life,Jesus said keep the commandments that have to do with love towards people,

No He just cited the bare commandments (no mention of love). And the young man replied, 'all these I have done from my youth up.'

and sell all you have and give to the poor,for that is love.

And he couldn't do it. But you have omitted the important words 'and come and follow Me'. That was at the root of Jesus' words.

 

[valiant]

Here's the whole passage:

Hebrews 10
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. [SUP]36 [/SUP]For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: [SUP]37 [/SUP]“For yet a little while,
And He[SUP][j][/SUP] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the[SUP][k][/SUP] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[SUP][l][/SUP]


[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


The contrast is very clear. Those who remain in faith will receive the promise (v35,36,39)
Those who fall back fall into perdition (v38,39)

Those who believe will receive the promise. Those who do not believe will draw back and fall into perdition. See, its so simple. (it does not mention 'stay in the faith', You just wish it did).

The writer of Hebrews says "we are those who believe" - simply stating that they (the writer or writers of Hebrews) are living by faith (they are in the faith). And by this an example to those who are reading the letter.

Yes that they too might believe. All the emphasis is on saving faith.

 

[Chris1975]

Those who believe will receive the promise. Those who do not believe will draw back and fall into perdition. See, its so simple. (it does not mention 'stay in the faith', You just wish it did).

Can't draw back from something if you were not already there. It is simple.

Yes that they too might believe. All the emphasis is on saving faith.

The emphasis is on continuing faith.

As above..........

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Everyone has faith – – even unbelievers.

The issue is not whether one has faith or does not have faith.

To all men is given a measure of faith...but a measure is a part, not the whole. The measure of faith that all men have is the ability to believe. However they believe what they want to believe is true and dismiss whatever they don't want to believe is true, having not the faith to adhere to the principles of Christ.

Right. What do we do with the truth when we hear it? Do we suppress it in unrighteousness or do we receive it into our hearts where God brings increase (1 Cor 3:7)?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As we hear the word of God and do not suppress it, God brings increase.

And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 2 Thess 3:2

Those referred to as not having faith are those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18).

I have also read different versions of the Bible and some render 2 Thess 3:2 as:

International Standard Version: Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith.

New Living Translation: Pray, too, that we will be rescued from wicked and evil people, for not everyone is a believer.

Berean Study Bible: And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men; for not everyone holds to the faith.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

I am always amazed and thankful for all that God has given to each individual believer. All God asks of us is that we utilize that which He has given us to bless others. And we are not all the same. We don't all have the same capabilities. We all have differing strengths and weaknesses, interests and disinterests, likes and dislikes, and capabilities. That just shows how multi-faceted our God is and how variegated is His wisdom!

You can ask oneself, what if some do not believe according to the faith of God, will their unbelief (no faith) make the faith of ?God as the work of God without effect. To effect is to work. No effect no work.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Rom 3:3

Those who do not believe are those spoken of in Rom 1:18. They suppress the truth in unrighteousness when they hear truth.

And no. Their unbelief does not make the faith of God without effect.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Those who believe will receive the promise. Those who do not believe will draw back and fall into perdition. See, its so simple. (it does not mention 'stay in the faith', You just wish it did).

Can't draw back from something if you were not already there. It is simple.

Of course you can

Yes that they too might believe. All the emphasis is on saving faith.

The emphasis is on continuing faith

.

No, that follows.

 

[Meggido]

^^^^^ without faith it is impossible to please God.
Without faith, there is no salvation.
If you lose faith, you will not be granted access to eternal life.

John 17.3 might be something for you to consider and it is Jesus talking:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

 

[Meggido]

John disagrees with you. He says that we know we have eternal life now. Either "we have the Son and have life or we don't".

It is not some thing we work for in our own self-effort. I really encourage you to ask the Lord about the real gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

1 John 5:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Jesus Confirms this in John 17.3

[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

 

[Meggido]

1 Corinthians 5
[SUP]2 [/SUP]by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

- if you hold fast (continue in faith) - you are saved
- if you don't hold fast (don't continue in the faith) - you are not saved.

If it is the latter, you believed in vain. Your earlier faith will be to no account in regards to your salvation.

Ezekiel 3
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die;
- Righteousness can only be by faith
- Iniquity is unrighteous.
- Living in iniquity means no faith.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[SUP][a][/SUP] who believe.

Is salvation eternal life or is salvation, deliverance from the powers of darkness and the forgiveness of SIN?

 

[Meggido]

Luke 18:18-23New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

[SUP]19 [/SUP]So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.”

[SUP]22 [/SUP]So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.



Why is it that Jesus did not tell this one to simply "Believe"? Why was Jesus talking about commandments in answer to the question of eternal life?

Or do you think there are multiple ways to eternal life? A set of commandments for one set of people, and for set of people its faith?

Let's see now.....Jesus and the rich young ruler where under the Mosaic law, we are not, so.

 

[Meggido]

Interesting way to describe Judas Iscariot, what would be some of the verses in the bible that support Judas Iscariot as being bought by Jesus, I do know the verses that say Jesus was sold out by Judas Iscariot, though maybe I'm not understanding correctly what you mean?

You mentioned Jesus always knew Judas Iscariot was A devil, what do you mean by this?

John 6.70 say's
[SUP]70 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”

 

[Chris1975]

Let's see now.....Jesus and the rich young ruler where under the Mosaic law, we are not, so.

Megiddo - here's a few questions for you to ponder....

- Were any people from the Old Testament saved?
- If so, by what means were they saved?

 

[valiant]

Megiddo - here's a few questions for you to ponder....

- Were any people from the Old Testament saved?

Yes

- If so, by what means were they saved?

By election, and by a true knowledge of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Luke 18:18-23New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

[SUP]19 [/SUP]So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.”

[SUP]22 [/SUP]So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.

Why is it that Jesus did not tell this one to simply "Believe"? Why was Jesus talking about commandments in answer to the question of eternal life?

Or do you think there are multiple ways to eternal life? A set of commandments for one set of people, and for set of people its faith?

Jesus wanted to impress on the rich young ruler both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation based on his own merit. This should have elicited a response about his failure, but instead he confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). This young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying; keep the commandments and you will be saved, yet that's not what Paul said. Jesus knows the hearts of all men. Jesus responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. Did Jesus respond to the woman at the well or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way? Yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation through faith, not works.

Why did Jesus connect receiving eternal life with "BELIEVE(S)" in these passages of scripture (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) if BELIEVING is insufficient to receive eternal life? In John 3:16, Jesus said - whoever believes in Him "apart from additions or modifications" shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[mailmandan]

John 6.70 say's
[SUP]70 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”

Amen! Jesus also said in John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) and Jesus knew it from the beginning.

 

[MattforJesus]

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

But the Bibe says that those that name the name of Christ must depart from iniquity.Stop sinning intentionally,and put in the effort to abstain from sin,which can be done by the Spirit.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,holy,just,and good,moral laws,love God,and love people,which the ten commandments are laws of love,moral laws,and any other laws as such.

Everybody has to live up to the law which they can do by the Spirit,and there is no excuse,for good is a choice we can make.

The rich man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life,and Jesus said,keep the commandments that have to do with loving people,plain and simple,but he said,I have kept them from my youth,so Jesus said,then sell all you have and give to the poor,which is also based in loving people.

If the rich man was not rich,but only got by with his needs,and asked Jesus what must I do to inherit eternal life,He would of said the same thing,keep the comandments that have to do with loving people.

For we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law.

A Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts,and will show the characteristics of the Spirit,and not the flesh,so sin has no place there,so they are not under the law,which means the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

If a person claims Jesus but holds unto sin,then they are under the law,for the law can touch them for prosecution,but they say that sin does not affect their relationship with God,and many hold unto sin,and then say,we are not under the law,but you are under the law for your sin you hold unto testifies that you are not led of the Spirit,and only by being led of the Spirit you are not under the law.

 

[Chris1975]

Jesus wanted to impress on the rich young ruler both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation based on his own merit. This should have elicited a response about his failure, but instead he confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). This young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying; keep the commandments and you will be saved, yet that's not what Paul said. Jesus knows the hearts of all men. Jesus responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. Did Jesus respond to the woman at the well or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way? Yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation through faith, not works.

Why did Jesus connect receiving eternal life with "BELIEVE(S)" in these passages of scripture (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) if BELIEVING is insufficient to receive eternal life? In John 3:16, Jesus said - whoever believes in Him "apart from additions or modifications" shall not perish, but have eternal life.

You are still divorcing faith from obedience and this gives you a poorer understanding. Look at the below:

Hebrews 3
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? [SUP]19 [/SUP]So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4
4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[SUP][a][/SUP] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Inheriting eternal life is still found in obedience (Hebrews 3v18,19). Jesus did not lie to the ruler who asked the question (Luke 18v20).
Those in the old covenant who tried to uphold the law based on their own self effort always fell short. For faith looks to God. Only those who believed God found salvation. And these lived in obedience (Abraham), these lived in repentance (David), these lived under great persecution (Joseph), these lived under great ridicule and scoffing (Noah), etc. Yet time and again we see through these heroes in the bible great faith. Were they perfect all the time? No. Did they always repent, Yes. For they lived by faith. Not merely a belief. But a belief in action.