Augustine and Original Sin

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Nov 26, 2011
3,818
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#1

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]

I have been working on this presentation for awhile, it was initially a powerful audio presentation originally produced by Chris Hill which I deemed was well worthwhile taking the time in putting it to video. This is a very concise presentation which examines the origin of the doctrine of Original Sin as well as its effects on the Gospel message.

It is well researched and fully annotated. I encourage people to dig into early Christian writings, particularly the writings of the "Ante-Nicene Fathers" as upon reading these one can clearly see how the simplicity of the Gospel became corrupted within a few hundred years of the apostles and by the time of Augustine (around 400 c. ) a system of error had come into being due to the development of systematic theology. That system of error is in full force today 1600 years later.

Ante-Nicene Fathers – VOL I – IX : HolyBooks.com – download free ebooks

I hope you all find it well worthwhile to watch and carefully consider the implications and I welcome constructive criticism and questions.


Standing the Gap Ministry

Standing the Gap

Early Christian Writings
Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Welcome to the CCEL - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#2
Augustine and Original Sin
(Companion Notes)


by Chris Hill

Original Sin is the principal notion in which the majority of modern day theology is supported. Understanding the origins of the doctrine of original sin is key in unraveling the theological mess in present day Christianity. This doctrine was blended into Christian teaching in third-forth century Rome. (NOT the Reformation!) There were several players involved and many theories expounded. Up to that time the free will of man was a given in Christian teaching. This is confirmed in the Scriptures and clearly stated in early Christian writings passed down by second generation disciples.

The original sin doctrine teaches that Adam and Eve's guilty consciences and wicked natures have been transmitted to their posterity, descending from them by ordinary generation. Thus Adam's sin has been "imputed" automatically to his descendants (with the exception of Jesus of course). His fall from grace resulted in the entire human race being utterly inclined toward evil. Mankind in his natural state is entirely disabled, opposite of all good and ferociously wicked to the core. Thus man is subject to punishment and death for Adam's (original) sin. He sins by necessity, NOT by choice and is born DEAD in his sins.

Basically this doctrine is divided into two major camps of thought. Namely: Traducianism and Creationism.

Traducianism teaches that the immaterial aspect of the (soul) is transmitted through nature generation along with the body (material aspect of man), meaning that each soul born is derived (not directly from God!) but DIRECTLY from the souls or (loins) of the parents. Therefore all souls were "in Adam" at the time of his creation by God. (God retired from the soul creating business after Adam so to speak.) Adam is the "Natural Head" of the entire human race by which the rest of us sprang by natural generation. (All infected by his original sin.) This is one early theory expounded in ancient times, but seldom embraced today.

Creationism on the other hand teaches that God creates EACH soul individually for each body that is generated. (This is supported a hundred fold in the Scriptures!) Adam then was our representative and entered into a "Covenant" agreement with God (which cannot be found anywhere in scripture.) on condition of his continued obedience in the garden. Thus the penalty for violating this covenant would be Adam's corruption and death (separation from God) and that of his posterity. Since the fall of Adam, this sentence of condemnation causes God to immediately "impute" each soul He creates with Adam's sin and depraved nature. This is called the: Federal Headship Theory and is the basics of all reformed theology since the reformation.

If the Jewish Rabbis did not teach the doctrine of original sin nor the early Christians who followed the Apostles, WHERE did it come from? Paul certainly did not teach it in Romans chapter 5, as is generally accepted by almost all modern scholars. Otherwise his disciples (who wrote extensively) would have expounded on it! On the contrary, they spoke against such teaching mainly because it is a GNOSTIC myth! The Gnostics were prevalent in the Roman Empire during the second-third and forth centuries and their teaching spread like wild fire through the populace by a cult named the Manicheans.

Inevitably Manichean teaching became blended into Christianity as a result of MANY devote followers of the so-called Prophet: Mani (AD 210-276) considering themselves "Christians" because of their austere life styles. One prominent person in Rome at the time who followed this teaching was AUGUSTINE of Hippo. Although he is heralded in Christianity as one of the greatest theologians of all time, it is through his efforts that the doctrine of original sin is engrained into main-stream teaching to this day and has thus rendered the preaching of real repentance and faith null and void. Augustine concluded in his writings and teaching that Adam's sin (in the garden) is physically transmitted and genetically derived from parent to child through the concupiscence (lust) that accompanies sexual reproduction. For that reason the infection of Adam's sin is passed down through "sexual intercourse" to the entire human race (except for Jesus, who was born of the man-made doctrine of Immaculate Conception).

Before you can even begin to unravel this mess and understand what the Bible really teaches concerning repentance and faith, you MUST grasp the impact of this doctrine on the nature of God. Augustine was a FALSE TEACHER! If you fail to see this in its proper light, you will remain in the dark concerning these things and none of this will make any sense to you. Clearly he converted to Christianity out of necessity (from Manicheanism) in 387AD, because of a royal edict by the Emperor who outlawed Manicheanism teaching in Rome. Because of his background in Gnostic teaching and influence of certain other Bishops, he immediately began to BLEND this teaching into Christian thought. Augustine was highly educated and a professor of rhetoric at a very early age, which gave him access to the high courts of Rome and entrance into high powered society.

Basically Gnostic/ Manichean teach a DUAL NATURE of man. (Christian doctrine has NEVER taught this!) One side is a world of light, good and virtuous. The other (material world) is of darkness or inherently evil. Each world is presided over by a god. Everything material (man's flesh) is evil by nature from birth and drawn only toward sin. Only the immaterial soul is the light, pure and undefiled. Sins of the flesh cause the pure soul to be imprisoned in a corrupted body. Their way out was the hope of the re-incarnation cycle to move them closer to salvation. They also embraced "election".

Hence, you have the teaching embraced by Christian doctrine of the "sinful nature", as taught in all the Churches today. Man in his converted (Born Again) state remains the "Chief of sinners" and "Roman's wretch". The old man is NOT crucified with Christ in repentance (where the sin stops!) but by a process of sanctification or by simple imputation (the moral transfer of Jesus' righteousness and obedience to the believer). This teaching is the PERFECT excuse for men to remain in bondage to sin and not be condemned by God. The fear of judgment for ungodly conduct is eliminated entirely! Augustine (who himself had a huge problem with sexual lust) LOVED this doctrine and expounded on it in his writings significantly. Consequently, his influence has spread through the ages and planted the seeds of Calvinist-Lutheran heresy in the 1500's and framed main-stream reformed theology to this day (all this can be easily confirmed by some historical research, ie: History of the Church 1 Henry Chadwick).

What this doctrine boils down to is the elimination of free will. If man is born, already imputed with Adam's sin by reason of his birth, he no longer has a CHOICE but becomes a sinner by NECESSITY. His sin is a malady over which he has absolutely no control whatsoever. Humans are born incapable of doing anything good without the "gracious influence" of Divine Grace bestowed randomly as God wills on certain individuals. By rejecting this concept the house of cards that supports all the other doctrinal fallacies immediately crumbles. Original sin necessitates election, moral transfer, pre-forgiveness of sins, limited Atonement, irresistible grace, and eternal security! ALL of which make it IMPOSSIBLE for man to turn to God, truly repent of his sins (be cleared of his wrong doing!), and be purged by the Blood of Christ and made pure by faith working by love!

Much of the foundation of these false doctrines can be traced directly back to Augustine. Failure to see this is the main reason most people in the churches remain in bondage to sin and blinded by lies. History clearly shows that this 'dual nature' teaching was blended into Christian doctrine in forth Century Rome and Augustine was one of the major players in promoting it. He wrote huge volumes advocating just war, the Church militant on earth and the dual nature of man. They are studied considerably in modern seminaries and sold in Christian book stores. Any teaching that exposes these things as false is suppressed, difficult to find and highly suspect of error among today;s so-called scholars (but you can find them at on-line book sellers). The "sinful nature" teaching has also infected many modern translations of the Bible including the New International Version, which translates the word "flesh" (Sarx 4561) to: "sinful nature" in Romans, but NOT in other passages such as in 1st and 2nd John.

There are two main New Testament passages that are used by those who have embraced the Augustinian Tradition in order to provide a measure of support and to prove there beloved theory of original sin. They are as follows:

"For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive" (1 Co. 15:21-22).

This passage is used to support the representation theory that ALL (spiritually and physically) die due to the transmission of Adam's original sin. However, this passage is strictly speaking of physical death, being the context is referencing the future (physical) resurrection of the dead (1 Co. 15). Hence, "even so in Christ all SHALL BE (future) made alive". According to Paul, physical death is a consequence springing from the man (Adam), just as a glorified body shall come in the future through the Man, Jesus Christ. Now, how is it man dies on an account of Adam's sin? I believe Adam was created mortal, that is, flesh and blood (Gen. 2:7; 3:19; 1 Co. 15:45-50). Through his personal act of disobedience he lost for himself (and descendants) physical access to the "Tree of Life" which he (and we) must eat from to "live forever" (Gen. 3:22). As follows, man physically dies due to being separated from this tree, but can regain physical access to its fruit (in the future) through Jesus Christ (Rev. 22:14).

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all have sinned" (Ro. 5:12).

Clearly, this passage is speaking of personal sin by imitation ('because all sinned') rather than inherited sin through imputation (Gen. 2:17; Ro. 5:12). In fact, Paul reports there were some individuals who lived after Adam, who sinned NOT according to the "likeness" of his original transgression (Ro. 5:14)! The word "have" indicates an activity on every individual's part. Sin is voluntary. All that have sinned are the ones who have sinned. As follows, sin is not a physical substance that is inbred in your flesh, rather, sinfulness is a result of living out aimless conduct received by tradition (or long practiced habit) from your fathers. (1 Pe. 1:18). Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and (spiritual) death through sin, and thus (spiritual) death spread to all men, BECAUSE ALL SINNED" (Gen. 2:17; 3:6; Ro. 3:23; 5:12; 1 Co. 10:13; Jas. 1:13-16)!

It should be noted that Augustine relied on the translation of the Latin Vulgate, (Catholic translation of the Bible) because he was unable to read Koine Greek. So, when he came to Romans 5:12 he read, "As sin entered the world by one man and death because of sin, so death spread into all men, IN WHOM all sinned." Thus, we arrive at another aspect that influenced the notion of the doctrine known as, 'original sin'. In the Latin Bible, the last part of Romans 5:12 passage is translated "in quo", meaning, "in whom" all sinned, which does NOT agree with the original Greek or the English which expresses the conclusion of Romans 5:12 as follows: "for that all have sinned" (AV), "because all men sinned" (RSV) and "because all sinned" (NKJV).

Does the Bible teach that all men are automatically made righteous by Christ apart from repenting and believing in the Gospel (Mk. 1:15; Acts 17:30-31; 20:21)? Of course not! Then why is it automatically assumed that all men are automatically made sinners by Adam apart from choice (Ro. 5:18)? The idea of original sin being hereditary is contrary to many parts of the Bible. For instance, Deuteronomy 24:16 states, "Fathers shall NOT be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers...every man shall be put to death for his own sin", while in Ezekiel 18:4 God confirms, "All souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sins, it shall die". This being the case, why would God allow the transmission of sin?

The 'sin nature' doctrine plainly contradicts other parts of the Bible and erroneously makes God the author of sin. Under this teaching, sin becomes a calamity (instead of a crime) and consequently places ALL un-baptized and aborted babies into hell. This doctrine has handicapped Ministers ability to call sinners to repentance and effectively preach against immoral behavior. Consequently, the Churches have been overrun with double-minded professing Christians who are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth! This teaching is utterly absurd, unfounded, unscriptural and promotes other false doctrines. For example, If the notion of original sin was valid, then it must be just as true that Jesus was born of a woman who was infected with this disease and thus shaped our sinless Lord in her very iniquity (Psa. 51:5 & Heb. 4:15)! The only way to avoid this blasphemes predicament is to embrace the Roman Catholic Dogma termed 'Immaculate Conception' which was invented to remedy the issue of Christ being infected with original sin.

Original sin is Gnostic and utterly false! Truly, this teaching is the Devil's masterpiece! By it, Satan has taken himself OUT of the picture completely! Man's bodily desires are now to be blamed for its constant wrong doings in the world, rather than the Devil's tempting and influential schemes. Because man's own nature (according to original sin) is wholly corrupted and entirely incapable of virtuous actions in thought or deed, Satan need NOT prowl anymore to seek and devour all who would submit to his influences. (Jas. 1:13-16; 1 Pe. 5:8; 1 Jn. 2:15-16)! Why? Because the inevitable consequences of all man's actions are already wicked and depraved from birth. No longer does Satan need to launch his fiery darts or lay in wait to deceive, instead, the (inherited) sinful nature will do it for him! He can just sit back and wait for the preachers to keep telling their lies and the so-called Christians to keep coming forth in their sins, thinking they are
save!

Source document at Sandra's website.
Welcome To Dividing Word
 
Last edited:
Jun 24, 2010
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#3
Augustine and Original Sin (Companion Notes)


by Chris Hill


Original Sin is the principal notion in which the majority of modern day theology is supported. Understanding the origins of the doctrine of original sin is key in unraveling the theological mess in present day Christianity. This doctrine was blended into Christian teaching in third-forth century Rome. (NOT the Reformation!) There were several players involved and many theories expounded. Up to that time the free will of man was a given in Christian teaching. This is confirmed in the Scriptures and clearly stated in early Christian writings passed down by second generation disciples.

The original sin doctrine teaches that Adam and Eve's guilty consciences and wicked natures have been transmitted to their posterity, descending from them by ordinary generation. Thus Adam's sin has been "imputed" automatically to his descendants (with the exception of Jesus of course). His fall from grace resulted in the entire human race being utterly inclined toward evil. Mankind in his natural state is entirely disabled, opposite of all good and ferociously wicked to the core. Thus man is subject to punishment and death for Adam's (original) sin. He sins by necessity, NOT by choice and is born DEAD in his sins.

Basically this doctrine is divided into two major camps of thought. Namely: Traducianism and Creationism.
Traducianism teaches that the immaterial aspect of the (soul) is transmitted through nature generation along with the body (material aspect of man), meaning that each soul born is derived (not directly from God!) but DIRECTLY from the souls or (loins) of the parents. Therefore all souls were "in Adam" at the time of his creation by God. (God retired from the soul creating business after Adam so to speak.) Adam is the "Natural Head" of the entire human race by which the rest of us sprang by natural generation. (All infected by his original sin.) This is one early theory expounded in ancient times, but seldom embraced today.

Creationism on the other hand teaches that God creates EACH soul individually for each body that is generated. (This is supported a hundred fold in the Scriptures!) Adam then was our representative and entered into a "Covenant" agreement with God (which cannot be found anywhere in scripture.) on condition of his continued obedience in the garden. Thus the penalty for violating this covenant would be Adam's corruption and death (separation from God) and that of his posterity. Since the fall of Adam, this sentence of condemnation causes God to immediately "impute" each soul He creates with Adam's sin and depraved nature. This is called the: Federal Headship Theory and is the basics of all reformed theology since the reformation.

If the Jewish Rabbis did not teach the doctrine of original sin nor the early Christians who followed the Apostles, WHERE did it come from? Paul certainly did not teach it in Romans chapter 5, as is generally accepted by almost all modern scholars. Otherwise his disciples (who wrote extensively) would have expounded on it! On the contrary, they spoke against such teaching mainly because it is a GNOSTIC myth! The Gnostics were prevalent in the Roman Empire during the second-third and forth centuries and their teaching spread like wild fire through the populace by a cult named the Manicheans.

Inevitably Manichean teaching became blended into Christianity as a result of MANY devote followers of the so-called Prophet: Mani (AD 210-276) considering themselves "Christians" because of their austere life styles. One prominent person in Rome at the time who followed this teaching was AUGUSTINE of Hippo. Although he is heralded in Christianity as one of the greatest theologians of all time, it is through his efforts that the doctrine of original sin is engrained into main-stream teaching to this day and has thus rendered the preaching of real repentance and faith null and void. Augustine concluded in his writings and teaching that Adam's sin (in the garden) is physically transmitted and genetically derived from parent to child through the concupiscence (lust) that accompanies sexual reproduction. For that reason the infection of Adam's sin is passed down through "sexual intercourse" to the entire human race (except for Jesus, who was born of the man-made doctrine of Immaculate Conception).

Before you can even begin to unravel this mess and understand what the Bible really teaches concerning repentance and faith, you MUST grasp the impact of this doctrine on the nature of God. Augustine was a FALSE TEACHER! If you fail to see this in its proper light, you will remain in the dark concerning these things and none of this will make any sense to you. Clearly he converted to Christianity out of necessity (from Manicheanism) in 387AD, because of a royal edict by the Emperor who outlawed Manicheanism teaching in Rome. Because of his background in Gnostic teaching and influence of certain other Bishops, he immediately began to BLEND this teaching into Christian thought. Augustine was highly educated and a professor of rhetoric at a very early age, which gave him access to the high courts of Rome and entrance into high powered society.

Basically Gnostic/ Manichean teach a DUAL NATURE of man. (Christian doctrine has NEVER taught this!) One side is a world of light, good and virtuous. The other (material world) is of darkness or inherently evil. Each world is presided over by a god. Everything material (man's flesh) is evil by nature from birth and drawn only toward sin. Only the immaterial soul is the light, pure and undefiled. Sins of the flesh cause the pure soul to be imprisoned in a corrupted body. Their way out was the hope of the re-incarnation cycle to move them closer to salvation. They also embraced "election".

Hence, you have the teaching embraced by Christian doctrine of the "sinful nature", as taught in all the Churches today. Man in his converted (Born Again) state remains the "Chief of sinners" and "Roman's wretch". The old man is NOT crucified with Christ in repentance (where the sin stops!) but by a process of sanctification or by simple imputation (the moral transfer of Jesus' righteousness and obedience to the believer). This teaching is the PERFECT excuse for men to remain in bondage to sin and not be condemned by God. The fear of judgment for ungodly conduct is eliminated entirely! Augustine (who himself had a huge problem with sexual lust) LOVED this doctrine and expounded on it in his writings significantly. Consequently, his influence has spread through the ages and planted the seeds of Calvinist-Lutheran heresy in the 1500's and framed main-stream reformed theology to this day (all this can be easily confirmed by some historical research, ie: History of the Church 1 Henry Chadwick).

What this doctrine boils down to is the elimination of free will. If man is born, already imputed with Adam's sin by reason of his birth, he no longer has a CHOICE but becomes a sinner by NECESSITY. His sin is a malady over which he has absolutely no control whatsoever. Humans are born incapable of doing anything good without the "gracious influence" of Divine Grace bestowed randomly as God wills on certain individuals. By rejecting this concept the house of cards that supports all the other doctrinal fallacies immediately crumbles. Original sin necessitates election, moral transfer, pre-forgiveness of sins, limited Atonement, irresistible grace, and eternal security! ALL of which make it IMPOSSIBLE for man to turn to God, truly repent of his sins (be cleared of his wrong doing!), and be purged by the Blood of Christ and made pure by faith working by love!

Much of the foundation of these false doctrines can be traced directly back to Augustine. Failure to see this is the main reason most people in the churches remain in bondage to sin and blinded by lies. History clearly shows that this 'dual nature' teaching was blended into Christian doctrine in forth Century Rome and Augustine was one of the major players in promoting it. He wrote huge volumes advocating just war, the Church militant on earth and the dual nature of man. They are studied considerably in modern seminaries and sold in Christian book stores. Any teaching that exposes these things as false is suppressed, difficult to find and highly suspect of error among today;s so-called scholars (but you can find them at on-line book sellers). The "sinful nature" teaching has also infected many modern translations of the Bible including the New International Version, which translates the word "flesh" (Sarx 4561) to: "sinful nature" in Romans, but NOT in other passages such as in 1st and 2nd John.

There are two main New Testament passages that are used by those who have embraced the Augustinian Tradition in order to provide a measure of support and to prove there beloved theory of original sin. They are as follows:

"For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive" (1 Co. 15:21-22).

This passage is used to support the representation theory that ALL (spiritually and physically) die due to the transmission of Adam's original sin. However, this passage is strictly speaking of physical death, being the context is referencing the future (physical) resurrection of the dead (1 Co. 15). Hence, "even so in Christ all SHALL BE (future) made alive". According to Paul, physical death is a consequence springing from the man (Adam), just as a glorified body shall come in the future through the Man, Jesus Christ. Now, how is it man dies on an account of Adam's sin? I believe Adam was created mortal, that is, flesh and blood (Gen. 2:7; 3:19; 1 Co. 15:45-50). Through his personal act of disobedience he lost for himself (and descendants) physical access to the "Tree of Life" which he (and we) must eat from to "live forever" (Gen. 3:22). As follows, man physically dies due to being separated from this tree, but can regain physical access to its fruit (in the future) through Jesus Christ (Rev. 22:14).

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all have sinned" (Ro. 5:12).

Clearly, this passage is speaking of personal sin by imitation ('because all sinned') rather than inherited sin through imputation (Gen. 2:17; Ro. 5:12). In fact, Paul reports there were some individuals who lived after Adam, who sinned NOT according to the "likeness" of his original transgression (Ro. 5:14)! The word "have" indicates an activity on every individual's part. Sin is voluntary. All that have sinned are the ones who have sinned. As follows, sin is not a physical substance that is inbred in your flesh, rather, sinfulness is a result of living out aimless conduct received by tradition (or long practiced habit) from your fathers. (1 Pe. 1:18). Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and (spiritual) death through sin, and thus (spiritual) death spread to all men, BECAUSE ALL SINNED" (Gen. 2:17; 3:6; Ro. 3:23; 5:12; 1 Co. 10:13; Jas. 1:13-16)!


It should be noted that Augustine relied on the translation of the Latin Vulgate, (Catholic translation of the Bible) because he was unable to read Koine Greek. So, when he came to Romans 5:12 he read, "As sin entered the world by one man and death because of sin, so death spread into all men, IN WHOM all sinned." Thus, we arrive at another aspect that influenced the notion of the doctrine known as, 'original sin'. In the Latin Bible, the last part of Romans 5:12 passage is translated "in quo", meaning, "in whom" all sinned, which does NOT agree with the original Greek or the English which expresses the conclusion of Romans 5:12 as follows: "for that all have sinned" (AV), "because all men sinned" (RSV) and "because all sinned" (NKJV).

Does the Bible teach that all men are automatically made righteous by Christ apart from repenting and believing in the Gospel (Mk. 1:15; Acts 17:30-31; 20:21)? Of course not! Then why is it automatically assumed that all men are automatically made sinners by Adam apart from choice (Ro. 5:18)? The idea of original sin being hereditary is contrary to many parts of the Bible. For instance, Deuteronomy 24:16 states, "Fathers shall NOT be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers...every man shall be put to death for his own sin", while in Ezekiel 18:4 God confirms, "All souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sins, it shall die". This being the case, why would God allow the transmission of sin?

The 'sin nature' doctrine plainly contradicts other parts of the Bible and erroneously makes God the author of sin. Under this teaching, sin becomes a calamity (instead of a crime) and consequently places ALL un-baptized and aborted babies into hell. This doctrine has handicapped Ministers ability to call sinners to repentance and effectively preach against immoral behavior. Consequently, the Churches have been overrun with double-minded professing Christians who are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth! This teaching is utterly absurd, unfounded, unscriptural and promotes other false doctrines. For example, If the notion of original sin was valid, then it must be just as true that Jesus was born of a woman who was infected with this disease and thus shaped our sinless Lord in her very iniquity (Psa. 51:5 & Heb. 4:15)! The only way to avoid this blasphemes predicament is to embrace the Roman Catholic Dogma termed 'Immaculate Conception' which was invented to remedy the issue of Christ being infected with original sin.


Original sin is Gnostic and utterly false! Truly, this teaching is the Devil's masterpiece! By it, Satan has taken himself OUT of the picture completely! Man's bodily desires are now to be blamed for its constant wrong doings in the world, rather than the Devil's tempting and influential schemes. Because man's own nature (according to original sin) is wholly corrupted and entirely incapable of virtuous actions in thought or deed, Satan need NOT prowl anymore to seek and devour all who would submit to his influences. (Jas. 1:13-16; 1 Pe. 5:8; 1 Jn. 2:15-16)! Why? Because the inevitable consequences of all man's actions are already wicked and depraved from birth. No longer does Satan need to launch his fiery darts or lay in wait to deceive, instead, the (inherited) sinful nature will do it for him! He can just sit back and wait for the preachers to keep telling their lies and the so-called Christians to keep coming forth in their sins, thinking they are


Anyone that does not believe in original sin is living in unbelief. I don't care who you are, what credentials you have or how long you have been calling yourself a Christian, you are in unbelief and you do not understand what God did to sin through His Son on the cross, through His death, burial and resurrection. Your gospel is incomplete and you limit the atoning work of the blood of Christ and the justification that God provides sinful through His Son. You do not understand that Jesus not only died for us but as us and we were buried with Him. Your understanding of the doctrine of Christ is way off and it does not have the power to redeem, to reconcile or to save man in his sin and from his sins making him part of the one new man through the new birth. If original sin is not the reason for Christ shedding his blood then He died in vain, the Father did not know what he was doing and we are still in our sin.
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#4
Anyone that does not believe in original sin is living in unbelief. I don't care who you are, what credentials you have or how long you have been calling yourself a Christian, you are in unbelief and you do not understand what God did to sin through His Son on the cross, through His death, burial and resurrection. Your gospel is incomplete and you limit the atoning work of the blood of Christ and the justification that God provides sinful through His Son. You do not understand that Jesus not only died for us but as us and we were buried with Him. Your understanding of the doctrine of Christ is way off and it does not have the power to redeem, to reconcile or to save man in his sin and from his sins making him part of the one new man through the new birth. If original sin is not the reason for Christ shedding his blood then He died in vain, the Father did not know what he was doing and we are still in our sin.
[/left]
Isn't it funny how they attack a person when they can't make an argument from the scriptures? They love to throw around the names of Calvin, Agustine, etc., etc. It's really sad that this man believes that he is responsible for his own salvation. And not only that, when he thinks he's saved, he also thinks he can lose his salvation if he falls into sin. This guy must get saved and lost millions of times a year.:rolleyes:
God bless.

Tom
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#5
Funny that speaker mentions that Augustine equated temptation with sin. While it's been some time since I've read Martin Luther, I recall him doing the same thing.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#6
Personally, I do not agree with either of Augustine's, Luther's, or Calvin's interpretation of original sin and total depravity. Both are nothing more than a license to sin.

Jesus gave his life that mankind might be restored unto right fellowship with God. Right fellowship with God consists of the Spirit of God inhabiting the hearts and minds of born again believers. Jesus himself walked in such relationship with God from the moment of His divine conception to this very moment where He sits at the right hand of God Almighty in the heavenlies making intercession for us night and day.

Romans 8 promises that when we choose to walk in right fellowship with the indwelling Spirit of God, we too become partakers of His divine nature thus we begin to take on the character of Christ as our very own. No longer should we be bound by the desires of the flesh.

2 Peter 1: 2-11 (NIV)

Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.



Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
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Tombo

Guest
#7
Personally, I do not agree with either of Augustine's, Luther's, or Calvin's interpretation of original sin and total depravity. Both are nothing more than a license to sin.

Jesus gave his life that mankind might be restored unto right fellowship with God. Right fellowship with God consists of the Spirit of God inhabiting the hearts and minds of born again believers. Jesus himself walked in such relationship with God from the moment of His divine conception to this very moment where He sits at the right hand of God Almighty in the heavenlies making intercession for us night and day.

Romans 8 promises that when we choose to walk in right fellowship with the indwelling Spirit of God, we too become partakers of His divine nature thus we begin to take on the character of Christ as our very own. No longer should we be bound by the desires of the flesh.

2 Peter 1: 2-11 (NIV)

Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.



Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Personally, I do not agree with either of Augustine's, Luther's, or Calvin's interpretation of original sin and total depravity. Both are nothing more than a license to sin.

This is absolutely false. All of the men you've mentioned were some of the fiercest fighters against taking sin lightly. They knew from God's Word that man is dead, not a little bit alive (as Luther put it) but dead, spiritually. Without God taking the first step in regenerating us and leading us to trust in His Son, we would forever remain lost. I don't hold to everything that these men taught, but they sought to give all glory to God, as is not only proper, but necessary, as far as salvation goes. God did it all, all glory be to our triune God!!!!
God bless.

Tom
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#8
Personally, I do not agree with either of Augustine's, Luther's, or Calvin's interpretation of original sin and total depravity. Both are nothing more than a license to sin.

This is absolutely false. All of the men you've mentioned were some of the fiercest fighters against taking sin lightly. They knew from God's Word that man is dead, not a little bit alive (as Luther put it) but dead, spiritually. Without God taking the first step in regenerating us and leading us to trust in His Son, we would forever remain lost. I don't hold to everything that these men taught, but they sought to give all glory to God, as is not only proper, but necessary, as far as salvation goes. God did it all, all glory be to our triune God!!!!
God bless.

Tom
Research your history my friend. The carnality embraced by both Lutheranism and Calvinism over the ages have given way to some of history's worst atrocities. Calvinists happily persecuted other denominations, killing other Christians who would not bow to their warped interpretations of scripture. It was Luther's antisemitism which inspired the Church of Germany to sit idly by as that demoniac Hitler and his legions brutally murdered millions of Jews.

Now please do not think that I'm insinuating that neither man was saved. It is very possible that we may very well encounter them in heaven. However, don't be surprised when you see the great cloud of witnesses for yourself if you find them sitting somewhere in the nose bleed seats. :D
 
Jun 24, 2010
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#9
Research your history my friend. The carnality embraced by both Lutheranism and Calvinism over the ages have given way to some of history's worst atrocities. Calvinists happily persecuted other denominations, killing other Christians who would not bow to their warped interpretations of scripture. It was Luther's antisemitism which inspired the Church of Germany to sit idly by as that demoniac Hitler and his legions brutally murdered millions of Jews.

Now please do not think that I'm insinuating that neither man was saved. It is very possible that we may very well encounter them in heaven. However, don't be surprised when you see the great cloud of witnesses for yourself if you find them sitting in the nose bleed seats. :D
Why don't you just go out and start ministering grace to strangers and sinners of all types and see what God does with you and with them. I guarantee you that God will draw sinners to His grace and you will see all kinds of fruit. Don't talk about their personal sin, talk about the love of God and what Christ did to sin on the cross. Talk about the mercy of God, the goodness of God and the greatness of God and see if God doesn't have mercy and reveal His goodness with the great things He does with people who are sinners. After all He did die and shed His blood for them. All this other stuff is just dead talk and dead works with no life from above.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#10
Mind you, I don't necessarily agree with Skinski either. The notion that man is somehow made righteous based on his own good works is every bit as foolish as the imaginary righteousness taught be Augustine & Calvin.
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#11
Research your history my friend. The carnality embraced by both Lutheranism and Calvinism over the ages have given way to some of history's worst atrocities. Calvinists happily persecuted other denominations, killing other Christians who would not bow to their warped interpretations of scripture. It was Luther's antisemitism which inspired the Church of Germany to sit idly by as that demoniac Hitler and his legions brutally murdered millions of Jews.

Now please do not think that I'm insinuating that neither man was saved. It is very possible that we may very well encounter them in heaven. However, don't be surprised when you see the great cloud of witnesses for yourself if you find them sitting somewhere in the nose bleed seats. :D
All you have done is accuse them of the same thing that some accused Paul of teaching.
Read Romans 3:7-8 "But if through my lie God's truth abounds to His glory, why am I still being condemned a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?- as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."
Some were saying that Paul's doctrine of grace (that when people do evil and are forgiven in Christ) taught that God received more glory when people sinned and were forgiven, because it highlighted God's grace, so why not continie in sin? Luther, Calvin, and Augustine taught that as much as the apostle Paul did!!!!

Tom
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#12
Why don't you just go out and start ministering grace to strangers and sinners of all types and see what God does with you and with them. I guarantee you that God will draw sinners to His grace and you will see all kinds of fruit. Don't talk about their personal sin, talk about the love of God and what Christ did to sin on the cross. Talk about the mercy of God, the goodness of God and the greatness of God and see if God doesn't have mercy and reveal His goodness with the great things He does with people who are sinners. After all He did die and shed His blood for them. All this other stuff is just dead talk and dead works with no life from above.
My friend,

I have witnessed with my own eyes what the grace of God can do when preached properly. Satanists saved, cutters set free, addicts delivered, prostitutes made whole, cancer healed, bones fused, muscles strengthened, closed wombs opened, depression cast down, anxiety broken, lust destroyed, marriages mended, prodigals return home .... I could go on.

You see, when we preach the cross, we preach about ALL that Christ accomplished on the cross! :)
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#13
All you have done is accuse them of the same thing that some accused Paul of teaching.
Read Romans 3:7-8 "But if through my lie God's truth abounds to His glory, why am I still being condemned a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?- as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."
Some were saying that Paul's doctrine of grace (that when people do evil and are forgiven in Christ) taught that God received more glory when people sinned and were forgiven, because it highlighted God's grace, so why not continie in sin? Luther, Calvin, and Augustine taught that as much as the apostle Paul did!!!!

Tom
Not at all my friend. Augustine, Luther & Calvin barely scratched the surface when attempting to explain God's grace. If all you believe God's grace is good for is the forgiveness of sins then you are very short sighted.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#14
Mind you, I don't necessarily agree with Skinski either. The notion that man is somehow made righteous based on his own good works is every bit as foolish as the imaginary righteousness taught be Augustine & Calvin.

Man is made righteous by yielding to the Spirit of God thus allowing the light of God to shine through Him as a vessel.

People take offense at any mention of having to "do something" and call it works or self righteousness. It is a complete fallacy.

Jesus taught that one must deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow Him. That involves doing something.

It is impossible to follow Jesus unless one first forsakes following the lusts of their flesh in rebellion to Jesus. One cannot walk in two directions at the same time.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Being a "doer of the word" is a dirty word among many today. Only Satan would tell people to forsake their sin and abide in Jesus Christ right?




Original sin is pure heresy. This presentation I put together proves it beyond any shadow of a doubt. We can clearly see in history where the doctrine was introduced, we can clearly see that the pre-augustinian church did not teach it and even refuted such notions.

Judaism never taught it.

It was hinted at by Tertullian, Origen and a few others but they never denied the ability of man to freely turn to God and forsake their sin.

Prior to Augustine scriptures like Romans 7 were never taught as applicable to the present Christian walk.

Sadly most people are in bondage to their theology and it does not matter how much evidence is given to prove it a fallacy they will cover their eyes and ears and deny the truth.

Sin is a moral choice and it is not a disease. It is something people sell themselves into by suppressing the light of God and thus the spiritual connection to the light of God is broken.

Anyway I recommend people actually watch the video and take notes and then go and read the source material. I referenced a lot of early church writings specifically so people can go and look them up for themselves and start educating themselves.

The easier road of course is for people to ignore such things and remain in their comfort zone believing that they are saved while they are still in bondage to their sins.
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#15
Not at all my friend. Augustine, Luther & Calvin barely scratched the surface when attempting to explain God's grace. If all you believe God's grace is good for is the forgiveness of sins then you are very short sighted.
What do you mean, "not at all my friend"? You leveled the charges against them.The carnality embraced by both Lutheranism and Calvinism over the ages have given way to some of history's worst atrocities. Calvinists happily persecuted other denominations, killing other Christians who would not bow to their warped interpretations of scripture.
You judge these men's teachings by what others have done, and not according to the truth of what they taught.
Then you point out how short sighted I am!!!!

Tom
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#16
Man is made righteous by yielding to the Spirit of God thus allowing the light of God to shine through Him as a vessel.

People take offense at any mention of having to "do something" and call it works or self righteousness. It is a complete fallacy.

Jesus taught that one must deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow Him. That involves doing something.

It is impossible to follow Jesus unless one first forsakes following the lusts of their flesh in rebellion to Jesus. One cannot walk in two directions at the same time.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Being a "doer of the word" is a dirty word among many today. Only Satan would tell people to forsake their sin and abide in Jesus Christ right?




Original sin is pure heresy. This presentation I put together proves it beyond any shadow of a doubt. We can clearly see in history where the doctrine was introduced, we can clearly see that the pre-augustinian church did not teach it and even refuted such notions.

Judaism never taught it.

It was hinted at by Tertullian, Origen and a few others but they never denied the ability of man to freely turn to God and forsake their sin.

Prior to Augustine scriptures like Romans 7 were never taught as applicable to the present Christian walk.

Sadly most people are in bondage to their theology and it does not matter how much evidence is given to prove it a fallacy they will cover their eyes and ears and deny the truth.

Sin is a moral choice and it is not a disease. It is something people sell themselves into by suppressing the light of God and thus the spiritual connection to the light of God is broken.

Anyway I recommend people actually watch the video and take notes and then go and read the source material. I referenced a lot of early church writings specifically so people can go and look them up for themselves and start educating themselves.

The easier road of course is for people to ignore such things and remain in their comfort zone believing that they are saved while they are still in bondage to their sins.
As I stated some time ago, you and I agree to a great degree and do I agree whole heartedly with your above statement. It's unfortunate that what little differences there are in our beliefs is enough to drive a large wedge between us.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#17
One thing I noticed was that the author condemned Augustine for being a Manichaean, but failed to mention that before he became a bishop (and indeed before he was baptized) he had converted to Catholic Christianity. Augustine even dedicates a whole book in his Confessions to refuting Manichaean teachings.

The second thing I noticed is his denial of the Immaculate Conception. Now this means one of two things, either he's denying that Mary was born without sin or he's denying that Jesus was conceived supernaturally.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#18
What do you mean, "not at all my friend"? You leveled the charges against them.The carnality embraced by both Lutheranism and Calvinism over the ages have given way to some of history's worst atrocities. Calvinists happily persecuted other denominations, killing other Christians who would not bow to their warped interpretations of scripture.
You judge these men's teachings by what others have done, and not according to the truth of what they taught.
Then you point out how short sighted I am!!!!

Tom
Here is what Martin Luther taught Tombo.

13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.
Martin Luther, Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

Do you stand by that? Is that the doctrine you hold to?

That is the fruit of the heretical blessed exchange doctrine that Martin Luther taught. It forces the conclusion that conduct does not matter. All the warnings in the scripture are then thrown out the window. Utter foolishness to follow the doctrines of men and deny what the Bible plainly states.

How about this...

Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes."
If that is not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost I do not know what is.

The reference for that quote is as follows.

Sited from: J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248

I managed to dig it up online so you can verify it for yourself.

La Réforme, son développement intérieur et les résultats qu'elle a produits ... - Johannes Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger, L. A. Unger, Emmanuel-Napoléon Perrot - Google Books

Use Babel Fish to translate it.

Free Online Translation


I have not even quoted some of the filth Martin Luther wrote about the Jews. Yet people hold this man up as a man of God? It is absolutely unbelievable and proves that ignorance abounds.

Is it any wonder that Martin Luther supported the murder of the Anabaptists? You should look that one up. He was no man of God. Look up and read "Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants" some time. Doesn't sound much like Jesus to me.

While there may have been some violent and rebellious elements among some of the Anabaptist groups they were just the ones who made the most noise and thus were able to be used to justify the murder of so many people. If you denied infant baptism it wasn't just the Catholic Church you had to worry about.



John Calvin is no better either, I have things to do right now so I will spare you the embarrassment of some of his quotes.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#19
One thing I noticed was that the author condemned Augustine for being a Manichaean, but failed to mention that before he became a bishop (and indeed before he was baptized) he had converted to Catholic Christianity. Augustine even dedicates a whole book in his Confessions to refuting Manichaean teachings.

The second thing I noticed is his denial of the Immaculate Conception. Now this means one of two things, either he's denying that Mary was born without sin or he's denying that Jesus was conceived supernaturally.

Augustine indeed decried the Manichaeans in his confessions yet he still held to the platonic dualist philosophy they taught. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth if you carefully read his writings.

If you want Augustine to be a man of God who taught biblical truth then your mind will filter out anything that causes cognitive dissonance and you will be able to nit pick something.

Augustine convicts himself with his own writings. His fictional god was a tyrant who predestined unelect babies to hell. He had no understanding of what salvation actually is otherwise he would not have written the things he wrote.

Sin is not a disease, it is a choice.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#20
What do you mean, "not at all my friend"? You leveled the charges against them.The carnality embraced by both Lutheranism and Calvinism over the ages have given way to some of history's worst atrocities. Calvinists happily persecuted other denominations, killing other Christians who would not bow to their warped interpretations of scripture.
You judge these men's teachings by what others have done, and not according to the truth of what they taught.
Then you point out how short sighted I am!!!!

Tom

Please accept my apology. By no means was the short sighted comment intended as an insult nor was it intended to be taken personally. It is a style of writing based on conditions. I used it without even thinking about who is on the other side of the conversation and the possibility that they might not understand what it was I was trying to say. Again, I apologize.

Getting back to Calvin & Luther, I believe that we can judge a doctrine by it's fruit just as scripture instructs us to judge an authentic christian according to their fruit. Note that in my previous post I refer to the belief systems and not the men themselves. I'm not judging the men based on what others have done, I'm judging the belief system. In fact, I stated that is quite possible that you may encounter either of them in heaven. However, if you research the lives of both Luther and Calvin you will discover that both wrestled with some serious "issues".