Augustine and Original Sin
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Give a brief description of the lifestyle of the believer who you are describing in your post. What are they doing and how are they living their life. Lets make this lifestyle objective for all to see and perhaps imitate in the grace of God. What commandments are they obeying and what is the fruit of their labours being a slave to righteousness? Is there a NT example of a believer who is living in this manner, if so, how are they living and what are they doing as slaves to righteousness unto holiness?
A
First of all: who causes repentance?
Not a worldly sorrow, but a godly sorrow.
Who causes a broken spirit? and a contrite heart?
Who causes poverty of spirit?
Esau sought repentance with many tears and couldnt find it. Why?
If you get to the bottom of that then most of this exhortation to repent will be bunk.
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“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. ” (Acts 17:30)
“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.” (Acts 3:19)
“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. ” (Luke 13:5)
“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance. ” (Mark 2:17)
All men were commanded to repent.
Repentance leads to conversion or salvation.
Without repentance you will perish.
This is a work of God....unregenerate man has no desire in himself apart from Gods enabling grace to repent(ref. beatitudes)
Then He does more:
“… the goodness of God leads you to repentance.” (Romans 2:4)
After this you can call it repentance or confession. Doesnt matter. What matters is
that we die daily, we grow from glory to glory, we grow in grace and knowledge
as we stay faithful.
Noone fell into to sin because they wernt holding their nose right, or had
reformed theology....this is all nuts. They simply gave in to sin..thats it.
Now pride is on the rampage to blame something or someone in a stature
of pride...rather than thankfulness for His mercy that endures forever.
“… the goodness of God leads you to repentance.” (Romans 2:4)
Not a worldly sorrow, but a godly sorrow.
Who causes a broken spirit? and a contrite heart?
Who causes poverty of spirit?
Esau sought repentance with many tears and couldnt find it. Why?
If you get to the bottom of that then most of this exhortation to repent will be bunk.
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. ” (Acts 17:30)
“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.” (Acts 3:19)
“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. ” (Luke 13:5)
“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance. ” (Mark 2:17)
All men were commanded to repent.
Repentance leads to conversion or salvation.
Without repentance you will perish.
This is a work of God....unregenerate man has no desire in himself apart from Gods enabling grace to repent(ref. beatitudes)
Then He does more:
“… the goodness of God leads you to repentance.” (Romans 2:4)
After this you can call it repentance or confession. Doesnt matter. What matters is
that we die daily, we grow from glory to glory, we grow in grace and knowledge
as we stay faithful.
Noone fell into to sin because they wernt holding their nose right, or had
reformed theology....this is all nuts. They simply gave in to sin..thats it.
Now pride is on the rampage to blame something or someone in a stature
of pride...rather than thankfulness for His mercy that endures forever.
“… the goodness of God leads you to repentance.” (Romans 2:4)
T
I think what someone was saying is that the focus isnt to be put on the sin or the repentance
but on the Lord and Saviour who has bought you and will forgive you. On what He will do not
on what you do. And I agree.
but on the Lord and Saviour who has bought you and will forgive you. On what He will do not
on what you do. And I agree.
I have also repeatedly shown them from Romans chapter three that, "there is none good, no not one." and "NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD."
They just refuse to acknowledge (no matter how much proof from scripture you show them) that God must save us first in order for us to even want to repent. Why they want to cling to their own works instead of giving God all the glory, I can't understand. It must be pride, they want to ultimately be responsible for their future. They say, in effect, "God did all He could do, now it's up to us to either "accept" Him or "reject" Him. They completely ignore the verses that say we can't come to God unless He first draws us.
Keep up the good fight, Abiding. There is no shortage of flase teachers bringing a "do it yourself salvation". We must let them know that God is sovereign and owes us nothing, least of all for any sin tainted works that we do.
God bless.
Tom
No not saying that at all, but for some here, they cant see the difference, as you are a slave to whom you obey, I don't know you, so I was just expounding on what you said.
Some here do not know what it means to crucify your flesh in repentance, once and for all, and are a slave to thier flesh, thinking they are saved, and a slave of no one.
we are slaves to the Lord, and walking in purity, sincerity and love, through the power of the holy spirit.
The law points out sin, but we are under the righteousness of the law, which is written on the hearts of those who obey God, and are walking in the spirit.
So thus those who have come to a saving faith, are a slave to righteousness, and those who have not are a slave to thier flesh, you cannot have it both ways!
Remember you are a slave to whom you obey, as the scriptures say, I wanted to make that clear, as to the different kinds of slaves taught in the word.
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to our God that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
You obey from the heart, you serve Christ, and are a slave of doing right, through a crucufied life unto Him, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, and walking in newness of life, a slave to our master in all we think, and do!
Gal 2:20I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf.
I am glad you have crucified your flesh with Christ in repentance, and now you are a slave to righteousness, but many have never been told thay must do this first through repentance. 2 Cor 7-10-11..
Some here do not know what it means to crucify your flesh in repentance, once and for all, and are a slave to thier flesh, thinking they are saved, and a slave of no one.
we are slaves to the Lord, and walking in purity, sincerity and love, through the power of the holy spirit.
The law points out sin, but we are under the righteousness of the law, which is written on the hearts of those who obey God, and are walking in the spirit.
So thus those who have come to a saving faith, are a slave to righteousness, and those who have not are a slave to thier flesh, you cannot have it both ways!
Remember you are a slave to whom you obey, as the scriptures say, I wanted to make that clear, as to the different kinds of slaves taught in the word.
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to our God that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
You obey from the heart, you serve Christ, and are a slave of doing right, through a crucufied life unto Him, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, and walking in newness of life, a slave to our master in all we think, and do!
Gal 2:20I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf.
I am glad you have crucified your flesh with Christ in repentance, and now you are a slave to righteousness, but many have never been told thay must do this first through repentance. 2 Cor 7-10-11..
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G1401
δοῦλος
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant
I may be wrong, but from what I am learning a slave is the same as a bond servant, as to the greek meaning.
So when I hear the term bond servant used in scripture, I think of slave also.
We follow the example Jesus set before us, and yes we are His bond servant, as well as a slave to do His will, and serve Him In all areas of our life.
δοῦλος
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant
I may be wrong, but from what I am learning a slave is the same as a bond servant, as to the greek meaning.
So when I hear the term bond servant used in scripture, I think of slave also.
We follow the example Jesus set before us, and yes we are His bond servant, as well as a slave to do His will, and serve Him In all areas of our life.
C
So you believe that salvation precedes faith? I don't find that anywhere in scripture. In fact, the bible teaches quite the opposite. Yes, I will agree that is God who draws men into right relationship with Him. However, you have the order all wrong. Faith precedes salvation.
When we hear or read the Gospel it is the gift of faith which convinces us of our need for a Savior in the first place. Faith precedes Conviction. Conviction precedes Repentance. Repentance precedes Salvation.
I have yet to read any verse of scripture which teaches salvation precedes faith. I doubt John Calvin did either.
When we hear or read the Gospel it is the gift of faith which convinces us of our need for a Savior in the first place. Faith precedes Conviction. Conviction precedes Repentance. Repentance precedes Salvation.
I have yet to read any verse of scripture which teaches salvation precedes faith. I doubt John Calvin did either.
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A
faith is a gift from God and not a work you can do out of your own free will.
salvation is provided through the grace of God given to people not because they earned it or deserve it but because God mercifully gives them a measure of faith and the Word to grow within their hearts into they can confess with their mouth His truth with sincerity in their hearts that Jesus is Christ and savior who died on the cross for the remission of sins and that God will send forth the Holy Spirit to those who truly seek Him with humble and contrite spirits made so by godly sorrow that bears the fruit of repentance.
all this is a work of God not men.
however the arguing and bitterness and misunderstanding is the work of the flesh and the lack of true understanding and shows the flaws of attempting to communicate spiritual things in worldly medium of words over the internet.
salvation is provided through the grace of God given to people not because they earned it or deserve it but because God mercifully gives them a measure of faith and the Word to grow within their hearts into they can confess with their mouth His truth with sincerity in their hearts that Jesus is Christ and savior who died on the cross for the remission of sins and that God will send forth the Holy Spirit to those who truly seek Him with humble and contrite spirits made so by godly sorrow that bears the fruit of repentance.
all this is a work of God not men.
however the arguing and bitterness and misunderstanding is the work of the flesh and the lack of true understanding and shows the flaws of attempting to communicate spiritual things in worldly medium of words over the internet.
Justification, sanctification, faith, repentance, consecration, good deeds etc - all these are gifts from God and the fruit of same. None of them are works-based in the sense of man preparing, co-operating, maintaining or commending himself as "worthy" by himself. To God alone be the glory for the finished work of redeeming His people.
C
Yes, faith is indeed a gift of God. Just as Conviction, Repentance and Salvation are also gifts from God. God is indeed "the author and finisher of our faith".
I never come here to argue, only to discuss. Very rarely do I ever take something personally nor do I try to make things personal. However, there are those who take much personal pride in their doctrines who can't quite seem to keep their emotion out of their discussions. Unfortunately, drama usually follows such people regardless of who they are talking to and it's difficult to avoid drama when dealing with such people.
My goal is not to provoke anyone but to challenge them to think outside of their own religious paradigm. To know why they believe what they believe so that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what they believe in is deed factual and / or spiritual truth.
I believe there is coming a time when authentic christians will once again face intense persecution on a world wide scale. I can't express how truly important it is that we learn to rely on God Himself and His word for our salvation and not a man (pastor or preacher) or a particular brand of theology. Now more than ever we need right relationship with God, not only for our own salvation but for the salvation and discipleship of others.
I never come here to argue, only to discuss. Very rarely do I ever take something personally nor do I try to make things personal. However, there are those who take much personal pride in their doctrines who can't quite seem to keep their emotion out of their discussions. Unfortunately, drama usually follows such people regardless of who they are talking to and it's difficult to avoid drama when dealing with such people.
My goal is not to provoke anyone but to challenge them to think outside of their own religious paradigm. To know why they believe what they believe so that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what they believe in is deed factual and / or spiritual truth.
I believe there is coming a time when authentic christians will once again face intense persecution on a world wide scale. I can't express how truly important it is that we learn to rely on God Himself and His word for our salvation and not a man (pastor or preacher) or a particular brand of theology. Now more than ever we need right relationship with God, not only for our own salvation but for the salvation and discipleship of others.