Augustine and Original Sin

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#41
2 Corinthians 5:21 "For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God."

This is for my Christian brothers and sisters. God made Jesus to be sin (our sin was imputed to Jesus), so that in Jesus (His sinlessness was imputed to us) we might become the righteousness of God.
This is the true gospel of grace. Don't be deceived by those who don't understand of what they speak. The speak much, but say nothing but lies. We can repent until the cows come home and it will not do one speck of good in saving us. We repent and live holy lives because God has saved us, not in order to become saved. Some people don't like to hear that, thay must have some credit for their salvation or they aren't happy. They don't know what it is to rest in Christ, and to put to death the deeds of the flesh out of love to God, and not out of fear of punishment or losing their salvation.
Be careful of the deceivers, there is no shortage of them. They will make much of themsleves and their works, and make very little of Jesus Christ.
God bless my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Tom

Adam Clarke commentary addresses this quite well.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Verse 21. "For he hath made him to be sin for us" - ton mh gnonta amartian, uper hmwn amartian epoihsen? He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent,) a sin-offering for us. The word amartia occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i.e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one's self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.
In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the hafj chattaah and tafj chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by amartia in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own. One of these writers translates the passage thus: Deus Christum pro maximo peccatore habuit, ut nos essemus maxime justi, God accounted Christ the greatest of sinners, that we might be supremely righteous. Thus they have confounded sin with the punishment due to sin. Christ suffered in our stead; died for us; bore our sins, (the punishment due to them,) in his own body upon the tree, for the Lord laid upon him the iniquities of us all; that is, the punishment due to them; explained by making his soul-his life, an offering for sin; and healing us by his stripes.
But that it may be plainly seen that sin-offering, not sin, is the meaning of the word in this verse, I shall set down the places from the Septuagint where the word occurs; and where it answers to the Hebrew words already quoted; and where our translators have rendered correctly what they render here incorrectly. In EXODUS, Exod. xxix. 14, xx16: LEVITICUS, Lev. iv. 3, 8, 20, 21, 24, 25, 29, 32-34; Lev. v. 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12; Lev. vi. 17, 25, 30; Lev. vii. 7, 37; Lev. viii. 2, 14; Lev. ix. 2, 3, 7, 8, 10, 15, 22; Lev. x. 16, 17, 19; Lev. xii. 6, 8; Leviticus xiv. 13, 19, 22, 31; Lev. xv. 15, 30; Lev. xvi. 3, 5, 6, 9, 11, 15, 25, 27; Lev. xxiii. 19: NUMBERS, Num. vi. 11, 14, 16; Num. vii. 16, 22, 28, 34, 40, 46, 52, 58, 70, 76, 82, 87; Numbers viii. 8, 12; Num. xv. 24, 25, 27; Num. xviii. 9; Num. xxviii. 15, 22; Num. xxix. 5, 11, 16, 22, 25, 28, 31, 34, 38.
Besides the above places, it occurs in the same signification, and is properly translated in our version, in the following places:- 2 CHRONICLES, 2 Chron. xxix. 21, 23, 24: Ezra, Ezra vi. 17; Ezra viii. x25: NEHEMIAH, Neh. x. x23: Job, Job i. 5: EZEKIEL, Ezek. xliii. 19, 22, 25; Ezek. xliv. 27, 29; Ezekiel xlv. 17, 19, 22, 23, 25. In all, one hundred and eight places, which, in the course of my own reading in the Septuagint, I have marked.
[/FONT]

If Jesus was literally "made sin" then He would not have been without spot.

Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The early church clearly read that as sin offering.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#42
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.




Jesus did not teach anywhere this great exchange heresy and that in itself thoroughly demolishes this blasphemous doctrine.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1322Tb9SGE[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ4hS-ejNGw[/video]
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#43
Flee from them, brothers and sisters. Don't turn from Christ to trying to work for your salvaton, the way these deceivers have done. They are blind teachers. They can't understand the meaning of clear verses. They don't even understand that the pharse "was made sin" refers to Jesus taking our place, and so standing as a sinner before God in order to take the punishment that we deserved. They destroy the beautiful message of salvation with their vile works doctrine.
Jesus was our substitute. He had all of the sins of His people laid on Him in order to take them away. And He made us the righteousness of God by His righeousness being imputed to us. What a merciful God we have!!!! But these vile workers would have you believe that you have righteousness in yourselves based on your works. They could not spit in God's face anymore than by what they are teaching. They are perverted and pervert the gospel and grace of God. It is beyond belief.
God have mercy on them. They are trying to turn people away from Jesus and back to works. Show them their ungodliness before it's too late. May they not draw their final breath in such a state as they are in!!!! God forbid it.
Flee from this abomination they call truth. It is anything but truth.
God bless my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Tom
 
Feb 11, 2012
1,358
8
0
#44
Here is some encouragement to the few who have ears to hear and a heart for truth!

An Encounter with God BEGINS with the Person AMENDING the Evil of his Doings! The scriptures teach repentance comes before salvation.(2Cor.7:10) Conversion comes before forgiveness.(Mk.4:12) And repentance comes before remission.(Lk.24:27) Since the nature of a true repentance produces the STOPPINGof sin. the CLEARING of wrong doing, a change of mind, inclinations, desires...so must the conduct change!...The result of a crisis conviction in the soul is a vindication and purification of heart by Christ blood through faith!(Acts15:9;1Pet.1:22;Heb.9:22;Eph.1:7;Col.1:14) Since sin is CHOICE, NOT NATURE it must be stopped in repentance!(Isa.55:7;2Cor.7:10-11)

NONE of this is Happening inside the Churches! They Preach a COMPLETELY Different Gospel! Your Presence among them is futile. But since Experience is always the best teacher, nothing I can say or show you will make a difference in getting you OUT of this Mess. Like everyone else, you will have to run your course and find out on your own that your effort is being wasted on the dead. I can only offer my advice based on past experiences. It’s difficult to quill the enthusiasm felt by a New Convert, whose eyes are open and heart is on fire for God. But I offer the following suggestions to any who would hear:

NEVER Compromise with the Born in Sin Message!
Stay OUT of Commentaries, Books, Study material, until you are Firmly Grounded in the Faith!
DON’T Get Caught up in the Church Hype, Music, Sports, Activities, Dinners & Think its Serving God!
Take NO Sides in the Doctrinal in-house Debates between Church goers.
PROVE and TEST Everything by Scripture BEFORE you Make your Decisions!
Don’t Support the Lie with your time, money, effort or agreement.
Be Prepared to Walk away at any time, no regrets. You Cannot Fear being alone.

The Churches are a Lost Cause and have been for Centuries. You Risk a Great Deal remaining among them. We are NOT Prophets, Sent of God to awaken them! We are Sojourners in a Strange Land. www.standingthegap.org
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#45
wow this is too much....too much. If it was a misunderstanding id jump
in. Its not tho. And its pretty strange. Sorta takes the ummpf out of
"it is finished" to me, but they seem to enjoy it. Oh well.
 
Feb 11, 2012
1,358
8
0
#46
It is finished doesnt mean Jesus took your place on the cross, and all your sins are pre forgiven, such as OSAS, that is a lie from the pit, watch the videos, open your bible, and the Truth will be revealed to you, don't close your mind and follow the blind guides that tell you you can sin and will not die!!

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#47
Flee from them, brothers and sisters. Don't turn from Christ to trying to work for your salvaton, the way these deceivers have done. They are blind teachers. They can't understand the meaning of clear verses. They don't even understand that the pharse "was made sin" refers to Jesus taking our place, and so standing as a sinner before God in order to take the punishment that we deserved. They destroy the beautiful message of salvation with their vile works doctrine.
Jesus was our substitute. He had all of the sins of His people laid on Him in order to take them away. And He made us the righteousness of God by His righeousness being imputed to us. What a merciful God we have!!!! But these vile workers would have you believe that you have righteousness in yourselves based on your works. They could not spit in God's face anymore than by what they are teaching. They are perverted and pervert the gospel and grace of God. It is beyond belief.
God have mercy on them. They are trying to turn people away from Jesus and back to works. Show them their ungodliness before it's too late. May they not draw their final breath in such a state as they are in!!!! God forbid it.
Flee from this abomination they call truth. It is anything but truth.
God bless my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Tom
Unbelievable stuff...and alot of slander and presumption against anyone who holds
to the atonement. Made me wonder what their take is on "without Me, you can do nothing"
And later when Paul talks about boasting, saying anything one has that is good was given them.
But boast they do and have elevated themselves quite well. Scary!
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#48
It is finished doesnt mean Jesus took your place on the cross, and all your sins are pre forgiven, such as OSAS, that is a lie from the pit, watch the videos, open your bible, and the Truth will be revealed to you, don't close your mind and follow the blind guides that tell you you can sin and will not die!!

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[/QUOT

You may get a prize for the worst scripture application ive seen in awhile.
Really all your doing is casting stones at sheep and using bad theology to do it.
I will probably report you. Hmm yes i think i will now.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#49
Another thing..."the lie" has nothing to do with a imperfect knowledge
of the attonement. Your off by a million miles...you probably dont even
know what it is. Id say the elite are closer to the lie. Actually thats
what i call this...a facet of eliteism. And down right lousy theology..if
not a damnable heresy....We know the Lord will forgive most sins.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#50
Flee from them, brothers and sisters. Don't turn from Christ to trying to work for your salvaton, the way these deceivers have done. They are blind teachers. They can't understand the meaning of clear verses. They don't even understand that the pharse "was made sin" refers to Jesus taking our place, and so standing as a sinner before God in order to take the punishment that we deserved. They destroy the beautiful message of salvation with their vile works doctrine.
Jesus was our substitute. He had all of the sins of His people laid on Him in order to take them away. And He made us the righteousness of God by His righeousness being imputed to us. What a merciful God we have!!!! But these vile workers would have you believe that you have righteousness in yourselves based on your works. They could not spit in God's face anymore than by what they are teaching. They are perverted and pervert the gospel and grace of God. It is beyond belief.
God have mercy on them. They are trying to turn people away from Jesus and back to works. Show them their ungodliness before it's too late. May they not draw their final breath in such a state as they are in!!!! God forbid it.
Flee from this abomination they call truth. It is anything but truth.
God bless my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Tom

People with the Faith of Yahshua the Messiah can not be working for Salvation, you are mixing the Hebrew people who do believe works and do not accept Yahshua the Messiah as their sin offering to Yahvah God.

Salvation brings love and obedience to Yahvah God.

You are accusing them of turning people away from Yahshua the Messiah, show one post where they told people that Yahshua is not the Messiah?


They make you uncomfortable because you have not received this understanding, so take to discrediting these men with your own tongue.




Revelation 14
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1 John

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

 
A

Abiding

Guest
#51
slippery little rascals ...there is a difference in being under that law
and obeying the Lords commandments out of love.

but to disagree with a persons theology...and immediately be told
we ok sin, love to sin, carry on with and permit sin, is just slander and
it happens all the time.

I dont know who is messianic or not if this is where this is coming
from id just say one thing about that:

RUN FOREST RUN!!!!
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#52
Another thing..."the lie" has nothing to do with a imperfect knowledge
of the attonement. Your off by a million miles...you probably dont even
know what it is. Id say the elite are closer to the lie. Actually thats
what i call this...a facet of eliteism. And down right lousy theology..if
not a damnable heresy....We know the Lord will forgive most sins.




26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#53
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



The Messiah Yahshua walked without sin.

Abiding in him, is to walk as he walked.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#54
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


The Messiah Yahshua walked without sin.

Abiding in him, is to walk as he walked.
The greatness of Jesus's love is seen so much more in the scripture where Jesus said, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden, and you will find rest, take up my yoke and walk with me.
For my burden is light and I am humble in heart.

I have always been filled with humility and awe that we are asked to walk as Jesus walked, but that also,Jesus offers to be yoked to us and walk with us.
One can rest in Jesus knowing He is right there beside them, attached by a yoke. :)

God bless
pickles
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#55
The other night I was reading Acts and this really sat on my heart:

40And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. 42And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

After being beaten they rejoice, that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#56
The other night I was reading Acts and this really sat on my heart:

40And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. 42And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

After being beaten they rejoice, that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
I knew the persecution card was coming:rolleyes:. Whenever they are called out on their false teachings they cry PERSECUTON!!!!
How many times, over and over again, have we maintained that a saved person will follow God's wil,l and repent, and live a life of sanctification and holiness????!!! The difference is, WE DO IT OUT OF LOVE TO GOD, AND GRATITUDE FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE FOR US!!!!! We do not do it IN ORDER TO BE SAVED!!!! WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT DISTINCTION??!!
All of you teach a salvation by works. If any of you WERE TO ONCE SAY that we must repent, we must crucify the flesh and its lusts, we must turn from the darkness and follow Christ's light OUT OF LOVE TO HIM, AND NOT TO BE SAVED, we would be in agreement. But you insist that your works make you acceptable to God, that your repentance saves you. THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE OF THE DEVIL. We couldn't obey God's law under the old covenant, that is why Jesus had to come and fulfill it on our behalf. He also took the punishment of the law that we deserved. ONCE GOD SAVES US, THEN WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO OBEY, BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT INDWELLS US.
I only take time to keep saying these things for the sake of my brothers and sisters in Christ who may happen to land on these terrible threads. I know that unless God opens your eyes, all that any of us say goes in one ear andout the other.

Tom
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#57
I knew the persecution card was coming:rolleyes:. Whenever they are called out on their false teachings they cry PERSECUTON!!!!
How many times, over and over again, have we maintained that a saved person will follow God's wil,l and repent, and live a life of sanctification and holiness????!!! The difference is, WE DO IT OUT OF LOVE TO GOD, AND GRATITUDE FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE FOR US!!!!! We do not do it IN ORDER TO BE SAVED!!!! WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT DISTINCTION??!!
All of you teach a salvation by works. If any of you WERE TO ONCE SAY that we must repent, we must crucify the flesh and its lusts, we must turn from the darkness and follow Christ's light OUT OF LOVE TO HIM, AND NOT TO BE SAVED, we would be in agreement. But you insist that your works make you acceptable to God, that your repentance saves you. THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE OF THE DEVIL. We couldn't obey God's law under the old covenant, that is why Jesus had to come and fulfill it on our behalf. He also took the punishment of the law that we deserved. ONCE GOD SAVES US, THEN WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO OBEY, BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT INDWELLS US.
I only take time to keep saying these things for the sake of my brothers and sisters in Christ who may happen to land on these terrible threads. I know that unless God opens your eyes, all that any of us say goes in one ear andout the other.

Tom

Who said persecution?
My response was to pickles post.


I do not need to be in agreement with you, I have been taught by the Holy spirit.

The Bible in context does not support you.

I am letting the light shine through me to glorify Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.

What is terrible is that you twist what is being said and accuse people of leading people away from Yahshua the Messiah.

Show where I said you work for Salvation?

Salvation brings works out of love and obedience.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#58
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This is proof of what i just said.....trying to discuss a topic and theres the
subliminal inference that a person is willingly prone to lawbreaking. Or
more often an outright accusation to the motive behind someones theological
understanding whether right or wrong.

Also bad scripture references.

Hebrews is unique in its target. What you have quoted is not a general
reference to willful lawbreaking. But more uniquely aimed at those who
go back to the law of Moses......Yup see! ...read verse 29. There are other
references to the fact people were going back to the old system and
putting Jesus Christ to open shame.

Yes good scripture reference...and it does apply here. Not sure it
applies the way it was intended. But it does very much.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#59
This is proof of what i just said.....trying to discuss a topic and theres the
subliminal inference that a person is willingly prone to lawbreaking. Or
more often an outright accusation to the motive behind someones theological
understanding whether right or wrong.

Also bad scripture references.

Hebrews is unique in its target. What you have quoted is not a general
reference to willful lawbreaking. But more uniquely aimed at those who
go back to the law of Moses......Yup see! ...read verse 29. There are other
references to the fact people were going back to the old system and
putting Jesus Christ to open shame.

Yes good scripture reference...and it does apply here. Not sure it
applies the way it was intended. But it does very much.
Quite sure the first bits reads :

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,

The start of the verse says if we sin willfully , not if we go back to Moses Law...

Keeping the Commandments of Yahvah God out of love and obedience for our gift of Salvation by the blood of Yahshua the Messiah does not put him to shame, it glorify's the love and mercy given to us by grace.

If people went back to the Law of Moses for their trespasses of the 10 Commandments yes it was in vain.

One way to be cleansed and that is by the blood of Yahshua son of Almighty Yahvah God.

The new spirit given fills us with love and obedience for our pardon.

Nothing I state goes against Yahshua the Messiah or Yahvah God.

What can you accuse me of?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#60
Abiding, to be fair you make sarcastic comments, like run forest run..

Why not take the time to participate properly with our discussions?

Why not explain to everyone what you think this verse means:





12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.