55 Year Old Man Impregnates His 11 Year Old Granddaughter

[Colorful]

DiscipleDave, it's clear where the disagreement is, but I feel we should completely isolate it so we don't get off topic (as we are already off topic of the original threads intent).

DiscipleDave: Only God creates life. Only God can make a female pregnant. Humans have nothing to do with getting pregnant.

Colorful: Men and women, through the power and gift of procreation, have the ability to create life (procreate) in conjunction with God (his will and allowance for it to happen). They could have the gift, but unless they have sex, they will not get pregnant, making them completely relevant to the act of getting pregnant.




The red font indicates where we disagree. The main question I would like answered is why do you view men and women as having absolutely no involvement in creating life (procreating) when clearly God has given us the ability TO procreate?

 

[DiscipleDave]

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DiscipleDave, it's clear where the disagreement is, but I feel we should completely isolate it so we don't get off topic (as we are already off topic of the original threads intent).

DiscipleDave:

Only God creates life. Only God can make a female pregnant. Humans have nothing to do with getting pregnant.

What post did i say that brother? just tell me the number, i want to see exactly what i said, so tell me the post number, strange that you did not give the post number, makes me want to look at EXACTLY what i said, to see if you are taking the sentence out of context of what was being said. You, of a Truth have done exactly that in the above, and you are your own witness that you have taken it out of context by ONLY highlighting the one part in the sentence. The sentence is said all together, NOT separated, that is what taking out of context means. you take one part of what is being said all the while ignoring the rest of what else was being said. Of coarse if you took what you have highlighted in read alone, by itself, it is wrong, but if you read the entire sentence, with the other parts that you did not highlight, it would take very little wisdom to see that the whole sentence is correct and True, When you read it like:

Only God creates life. Only God can make a female pregnant, humans have nothing to do with getting pregnant.

Instead of, and NOT:

Only God creates life. Only God can make a female pregnant. Humans have nothing to do with getting pregnant.

And i would be most looking forward to seeing the post number where i have said that, because i think and may be totally wrong that you changed the punctuation to change what i said. If i did say it as you are testifying that i did, i want to see the actual post. So i can apologize to you.

^i^

Colorful:

Men and women, through the power and gift of procreation, have the ability to create life (procreate) in conjunction with God (his will and allowance for it to happen). They could have the gift, but unless they have sex, they will not get pregnant, making them completely relevant to the act of getting pregnant.

Are you saying that i have not agreed with you on this over and over again?

^i^




The red font indicates where we disagree. The main question I would like answered is why do you view men and women as having absolutely no involvement in creating life (procreating) when clearly God has given us the ability TO procreate?

 

[Colorful]

If a person goes to a clinic and gets pregnated from a test tube, it is still God who decides if that person will have a child or not, ONLY God.

Clearly, “ONLY God” means the actions of the male/female are irrelevant to the actual conception. This isn’t true, as you (thankfully) agree that conception can only occur if a male and female have sex (and God allows it).

Here is where the problem is, you think that grandpa and that girl created a life? because he has the free will to procreate. You do error and do not know the Truth. God decides who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant, this has nothing to do with the rape, this has nothing to do with sinful things. ONLY God decides who will get pregnant.

By asking if I “think grandpa and that girl created a life” and saying I “error and do not know Truth”, you’re obviously disagreeing that grandpa and his granddaughter created life. However, in the same breath you’re agreeing that God gave men and women the gift/power to procreate (which is to create life). In other words, you agree “God gave men and women the ability to create life” but disagree that “grandpa and granddaughter” created life. Do you see the contradiction?

By the way, the post is #100. How dare you accuse me of editing your your posts. First of all, if I was going to edit your grammar/punctuation/spelling in all your posts, it would take me all weekend. Secondly, I use the "quote" feature when I want to post exactly what you said verbatim. Thirdly, I'm doing all the work to go back and copy/paste/quote everything you're saying accurately.

 

[Colorful]

Clearly, “ONLY God” means the actions of the male/female are irrelevant to the actual conception. This isn’t true, as you (thankfully) agree that conception can only occur if a male and female have sex (and God allows it)... or in this case, man making a deposit at the sperm bank and the woman taking a withdrawal from the sperm bank.

Fixed.... You gave a hypothetical scenario where sex wasn't involved.

 

[maditaylor]

DiscipleDave said



Yes, Thank You. i was thinking that maybe i was not saying it in a way that people could understand, but since you grasped exactly what i have been saying, and you understood it, then maybe others can understand it too.
Yes that is EXACTLY what i have been saying, and apparently people disagree with it.

^i^

DiscpleDave,

Do humans have the ability to create life with God?

Love,
Madi

 

[Colorful]

DiscpleDave,

Do humans have the ability to create life with God?

Love,
Madi

If it's "no"... Then "only God" gets a female pregnant (the male/female having sex is irrelevant to creating life). Immaculate conception?

If it's "yes"... then it's clearly not "only God" that creates life like he's been saying, but rather "in conjunction" with God.

I'm hoping he answers your question.

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscpleDave,

Do humans have the ability to create life with God?

Love,
Madi

Humans have the ability to procreate, humans have the ability to copulate, humans have the ability to put sperm cells around the womans egg cell. ONLY God decides if that woman will get pregnant or not. The man does not decide, the woman does not decide, LUCK does not decide, God is the one who decides who will bring life into this world and who will not.
GOD CREATES LIFE, humans do not, devil does not, demons do not, LUCK does not.
Is it not written that the body without the spirit can't live. It is the spirit inside of ever living human that allows that person to LIVE, allows that persons heart to beat. God gives that spirit to who God decides to give it too. When a woman gets pregnant it is because God decided to give of His spirit which allows the egg cell to receive the sperm cell and become fertilized. God does that, NOT HUMANS. Humans can send millions of sperm cells to get inside that egg cell. But God only allows one, IF He chooses to give of His spirit to create a life in that person, then God causes the egg cell to be responsive to accept the fertilization.

^i^

 

[maditaylor]

Thank you, Dave!

I understand. I think you mean to tell us the same thing Colorful is saying. There may have been a misunderstanding or two along the way.

Colorful believes you're saying that God can get a woman pregnant without a man. Also that it is only God and a woman that make a baby.

Colorful is saying that a man can get a woman pregnant with God. The man and woman must have sex and have the blessing from God to have a child.

That is the discrepancy between your arguments, from my point of view. Is this correct?

Since you've said,

Humans can send millions of sperm cells to get inside that egg cell. But God only allows one, IF He chooses to give of His spirit to create a life in that person, then God causes the egg cell to be responsive to accept the fertilization.

Can we agree that there needs to be man, woman, AND God to have a baby?

Love,
Madi

 

[Colorful]

Humans have the ability to procreate

What does "procreate" mean exactly? Please give us your definition. While you definite it for us, I'll give you dictionary.com's definition of "procreate".

verb (used with object), procreated, procreating.
1. to beget or generate (offspring).
2. to produce; bring into being.
verb (used without object), procreated, procreating.
3. to beget offspring.
4. to produce; bring into being.

The word "offspring" is defined as followed (by the same source):
noun, plural offspring, offsprings.
1. children or young of a particular parent or progenitor.
2. a child or animal in relation to its parent or parents.
3. a descendant.
4. descendants collectively.

So taking what you said, "Humans have the ability to procreate", we could plug in the definition of "procreate" and we could replace "procreate" with the actual definition, then replace "offspring" using it's definition as well so we could break down what exactly it is you're saying.

"Humans have the ability to produce children"...

Is it more clear how these two statements contradict each other now?

Humans have the ability to procreate

ONLY God decides if that woman will get pregnant or not. The man does not decide, the woman does not decide, LUCK does not decide, God is the one who decides who will bring life into this world and who will not.

I don't understand why you struggle to grasp the concept that God doesn't create life ALONE and humans don't create life ALONE. If people don't have sex, God won't make the woman pregnant. People can have sex, but God may not necessarily allow it. Hence, in conjunction with God, humans have the ability to "procreate".

 

[maditaylor]

Thank you, Dave!

I understand. I think you mean to tell us the same thing Colorful is saying. There may have been a misunderstanding or two along the way.

Colorful believes you're saying that God can get a woman pregnant without a man. Also that it is only God and a woman that make a baby.

Colorful is saying that a man can get a woman pregnant with God. The man and woman must have sex and have the blessing from God to have a child.

That is the discrepancy between your arguments, from my point of view. Is this correct?

Since you've said,



Can we agree that there needs to be man, woman, AND God to have a baby?

Love,
Madi

Or,

You two are TRYING to say the same thing but in different ways.

Dave is stressing the God part and Colorful is stressing the man part.

But you've both said that it takes three to have a baby.

 

[Colorful]

Or,

You two are TRYING to say the same thing but in different ways.

Dave is stressing the God part and Colorful is stressing the man part.

But you've both said that it takes three to have a baby.

No, I'm not stressing the man part. I'm stressing the "in conjunction" part. A woman doesn't get pregnant without God nor without a man to plant his seed inside of her. Dave disagrees as he thinks a man planting a seed in the woman is irrelevant to the woman getting pregnant. I would think after 47 years he would know the birds and the bees by now.

As for the highlighted red part, he said a man "can" plant his seed around an egg (have sex with a woman), but God is the only variable. He believes it only takes ONE, not three. We aren't saying the same thing at all.

Note: He technically has said it takes 3 to create a life by saying humans have the "ability to procreate" but he contradicts it directly by saying ONLY God can.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Thank you, Dave!

I understand. I think you mean to tell us the same thing Colorful is saying. There may have been a misunderstanding or two along the way.

Ya think?

Colorful believes you're saying that God can get a woman pregnant without a man. Also that it is only God and a woman that make a baby.

Colorful disagreed with many things that i did not say.

Colorful is saying that a man can get a woman pregnant with God. The man and woman must have sex and have the blessing from God to have a child.

And i have never said anything remotely contrary to that, only that Colorful thinks i did.

Since you've said,

Humans can send millions of sperm cells to get inside that egg cell. But God only allows one, IF He chooses to give of His spirit to create a life in that person, then God causes the egg cell to be responsive to accept the fertilization.

Can we agree that there needs to be man, woman, AND God to have a baby?

Love,
Madi

..... sigh. . . . And have i said any differently? nope. It takes sperm, it takes an egg cell, And it takes God's decision if that egg cell will be fertilized. Who does not understand that? Except those who do not believe God decides WHO gets pregnant and WHO does not get pregnant.

The main disagreement that Colorful and i have had from the start is i said "God decides who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant" responding to the Thread. Then Colorful adamantly disagreed with that statement, and the debate was on.

^i^

 

[Colorful]

The main disagreement that Colorful and i have had from the start is i said "God decides who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant" responding to the Thread. Then Colorful adamantly disagreed with that statement, and the debate was on.

I never disagreed with that line... I disagreed with you saying humans don't create life. Nice try.

Let me ask you this: If men and women don't have sex, does God still decide if the woman will get pregnant?

No, God doesn't decide in that case, as sex, by a man and woman, must first take place. For this reason, through the gift of procreation given to us from God, God, women, AND men are all responsible for creating life; If one party refused to take apart in the requirements for conception (creating life), the woman won't conceive. True or false?

 

[Colorful]

DiscipleDave, another question, and I know I've asked it multiple times:

Answering only "yes" or "no" (this is not an essay question), is a man planting his seed inside a woman irrelevant to the woman [eventually] getting pregnant?

If it IS relevant, why/how did the man/woman not partake in creating life (aka procreating)? <--- that is an essay question

 

[maditaylor]

I want to understand too, Dave.

If you agree that a man and a woman must have sex in order to procreate, why do you say they have no responsibility with God in creating life?

Love,
Madi

 

[Human]

Man, 55, sentenced to 200 years for impregnating his 11-year-old granddaughter | Daily Mail Online

I was reading the article above about a 55 year old grandfather who impregnated his 11 year old granddaughter. I thought to myself, “which is the greater evil: giving this little girl an abortion or making her give birth to her grandfather’s child?” Which do you think is the lesser evil? Do the unborn have equal right/value as the already born? What would you do if you were the mother/father of this little girl? What does it mean when the bible says “the breath of life”?

I immediately recalled Exodus 21:22-25. “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

Back then, when women gave birth “prematurely” it was almost always certain death for the fetus/child and many times for the mother as well (but the survival was obviously higher for the mother). If the fetus/baby dies (but the mother lives), the guy who hit her is to pay a fine. If the unborn are truly 100% equivalent to the already born, why then is it a capital offense only when the mother dies but NOT when the fetus/child dies? If all abortions are murder, why is one murder treated astronomically differently (a simple monetary fine) and the other is a capital offense? Would it be fair to say there is a HUGE distinction between the mother’s life and the fetus/child’s? Why or why not? If the unborn is not considered a living human being (but a potential human being), would it be appropriate to abort the fetus in a case where a grandfather fathers a child with his granddaughter?

This is the dilemma upon which I base my opinion that abortion should be a viable and legal choice in such circumstances; which of these is right -- forcing a victim of unconsensual sex to give birth, or aborting the child?

Neither is right and so I believe it should be a matter of choice. In this case, the girl is only 11, and probably won't be able to bear the strain of pregnancy and labour and childbirth. Abortion should be an option, given the horrific nature of an 11 year old rape victim having to give birth to her grandfather's child. She probably doesn't even understand fully what is happening. As for the child, it will likely be cripplingly disabled, and if she is forced to endure the pregnancy and labour, as well as the circumstance of her conception, she will be scarred for life.

The abortion would be painless; she'd be sedated and wake up without child.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I never disagreed with that line... I disagreed with you saying humans don't create life. Nice try.

You still don't get it do you? ... sigh..... Human DO NOT create life. Try to follow what i am saying. Humans provide the ingredients (sperm, egg cell) Human were given precreation as a means to supply those ingredients ( that is sex ). Humans can ONLY provide the ingredients (sperm, egg cell) done through procreation. So are you with me here? You say this to me as if this information is not well known, or that somehow at the age of almost 50 i don't know that information. But now comes the part that you can't seem to grasp, no matter how many times i have tried to explain it to you so that you could understand it. Now try to follow me here. Humans provide the ingredients (sperm, egg cell) through procreation (sex). GOD decides if she will get pregnant or not. Just because Humans supply all the ingredients does not mean they WILL get pregnant. ONLY God decides who will and who will not get pregnant.
Are you still not understanding that, or do you still disagree with that?

Let me ask you this: If men and women don't have sex, does God still decide if the woman will get pregnant?

..... sigh ........

No, God doesn't decide in that case, as sex, by a man and woman, must first take place.

That is not True. Mary did not have sex at all, and God still decided for her to become pregnant, Which is a perfect example of what i have been saying all along. God decides who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant, and as in the example of Mary, procreation is not necessary with God. However if procreation happens, even if it is protected procreation. God still decides who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant. This is something that you seem to not agree with.

For this reason, through the gift of procreation given to us from God, God, women, AND men are all responsible for creating life; If one party refused to take apart in the requirements for conception (creating life), the woman won't conceive. True or false?

i can tell from your above statement, you, as i have said from the start, think humans create life. THEY DO NOT. Humans only supply the ingredients so God can decide to create life.
i will tell you the Truth, if there was NO GOD, there would be no life. In other words if there was a human man and a human woman on a planet, where there is NO GOD, they can have sex forever 10 times a day until they die, and there would be no pregnancy. YOU think there would be, because you think HUMANS create life. Your above statement testifies to that.
God creates life, God is LIFE.
All humans do, is provide the ingredient (procreate) so that God can decide who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant. You think Humans create life because they procreate. i know God decides to create life in humans that procreate.
i also just remembered you still have not answer my question.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave, another question, and I know I've asked it multiple times:

And i am most certain i have answered it the same every time.

Answering only "yes" or "no" (this is not an essay question), is a man planting his seed inside a woman irrelevant to the woman [eventually] getting pregnant?

Answering the same as i did several times before. i have never said differently or otherwise. Yes all the ingredients has to be present for a woman to become pregnant. This is birds and the bees stuff, who does not know that. And i have never said differently. The only thing that i have said over and over again, which you seem to not be able to comprehend, is it is still God that decides who will and who will not get pregnant.

If it IS relevant, why/how did the man/woman not partake in creating life (aka procreating)? <--- that is an essay question

You are a witness to the Truth that i have said in a previous post, That all you want to talk about is the Why and the How, which you have yet done again. And i also noticed the WHO is still NOT discussed or commented on by you, why is that?
Of course the Why and the how are relevant. Because it is the Why and the How that provides the ingredients for a woman to get pregnant. But we have been discussing WHO decides if the woman will actually become pregnant if all the ingredience are present for her to do so? God does, do you agree or not?

Done, sorry brother, no offense, but i am done with this topic with YOU. If another wants to discuss it, so be it. But i have determined that you have an unteachable spirit, and i could be wrong in saying that, but the proof is revealed in this thread is it not. email me if you want farther discussion from me, but i am done with this post, another poster said it Truly, this is unfruitful, and accomplishing nothing at all.

Love you Brother

^i^

 

[Sirk]

You still don't get it do you? ... sigh..... Human DO NOT create life. Try to follow what i am saying. Humans provide the ingredients (sperm, egg cell) Human were given precreation as a means to supply those ingredients ( that is sex ). Humans can ONLY provide the ingredients (sperm, egg cell) done through procreation. So are you with me here? You say this to me as if this information is not well known, or that somehow at the age of almost 50 i don't know that information. But now comes the part that you can't seem to grasp, no matter how many times i have tried to explain it to you so that you could understand it. Now try to follow me here. Humans provide the ingredients (sperm, egg cell) through procreation (sex). GOD decides if she will get pregnant or not. Just because Humans supply all the ingredients does not mean they WILL get pregnant. ONLY God decides who will and who will not get pregnant.
Are you still not understanding that, or do you still disagree with that?



..... sigh ........



That is not True. Mary did not have sex at all, and God still decided for her to become pregnant, Which is a perfect example of what i have been saying all along. God decides who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant, and as in the example of Mary, procreation is not necessary with God. However if procreation happens, even if it is protected procreation. God still decides who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant. This is something that you seem to not agree with.




i can tell from your above statement, you, as i have said from the start, think humans create life. THEY DO NOT. Humans only supply the ingredients so God can decide to create life.
i will tell you the Truth, if there was NO GOD, there would be no life. In other words if there was a human man and a human woman on a planet, where there is NO GOD, they can have sex forever 10 times a day until they die, and there would be no pregnancy. YOU think there would be, because you think HUMANS create life. Your above statement testifies to that.
God creates life, God is LIFE.
All humans do, is provide the ingredient (procreate) so that God can decide who will get pregnant and who will not get pregnant. You think Humans create life because they procreate. i know God decides to create life in humans that procreate.
i also just remembered you still have not answer my question.

^i^

I get what you are saying but I'm not sure that I buy it.....because if that is the case....then God is allowing people to live simply to condemn them hell. The whole thing really doesn't hold water with me. People make choices, there are consequences for choices (good and bad) and they can span for generations.

 

[Colorful]

You still don't get it do you? ... sigh..... Human DO NOT create life. Try to follow what i am saying. Humans provide the ingredients (sperm, egg cell) Human were given precreation as a means to supply those ingredients ( that is sex ). Humans can ONLY provide the ingredients (sperm, egg cell) done through procreation.

I understand what you're saying... it's just not true. You use "procreation" and "copulation" interchangeably. This is why you are 100% wrong. When you "procreate", you "produce offspring". When you "copulate", you merely have sex. You've admitted that God lets men and women "procreate", that is, to produce offspring (life).

Humans provide the ingredients via "copulation". That is why they are responsible for creating life (in conjunction with God). When the women gets pregnant AFTER copulation, "procreation occurred". I know you love to point out how young I am, but the fact I have to explain this to you is pretty sad.

So are you with me here? You say this to me as if this information is not well known, or that somehow at the age of almost 50 i don't know that information.

No, I'm not with you. Perhaps in another 47 years, you'll understand the difference between "copulate" and "procreate". You disagree with your OWN statement when you say "God allows humans to procreate" when you say "ONLY God creates life, not humans".

But now comes the part that you can't seem to grasp, no matter how many times i have tried to explain it to you so that you could understand it. Now try to follow me here. Humans provide the ingredients (sperm, egg cell) through procreation (sex). GOD decides if she will get pregnant or not. Just because Humans supply all the ingredients does not mean they WILL get pregnant. ONLY God decides who will and who will not get pregnant.
Are you still not understanding that, or do you still disagree with that?

This is like a 15 year old kid telling you "2 + 2 = 10". Not only is the kid old enough to know better... but he's just simply wrong.