A Biblical treatment of the oneness doctrine.

[wisdomseeker]

Jesus is everything to us: He is God, savior, mediator, propitiation for sin, advocate, and comforter. He is our rescuer, King and ruler.

Peace be to you
You are not capable of breaking God's word.
math;
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Revelation;
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

John;
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

You leave alot of beings out in your hypothasis;

Love a friend in God

 

[MahogonySnail]

The Father did send the Son, God didn't have a human body of Adam's sinful flesh when He was in Heaven. The Bible has to say that the Father sent the Son because God was manifest in the flesh, if it said that the Son sent the Son than we would have to assume that God has an earthly flesh body before He was manifest, which of course is noit the case, so the Father who is invisible to our eyes did indeed send the Son whom is visible to our eyes

hmm is there a problem saying that God sent the Son and the Son pre-existed with the Father before creation?:

http://preachersfiles.com/the-pre-existence-of-christ/

DISCUSSION:
A. PROOF OF THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF CHRIST
1. John 1:15
a. “Preferred before me” has to do with rank – i.e. Jesus out-ranked John
b. “He was before me” has to do with time – Jesus existed before John did (yet we know Jesus was not conceived until about six months after John was conceived within Elizabeth) – thus Jesus existed before His conception or birth
2. Jesus has been since before “the beginning” – John 1:1
a. “The Word” refers to Jesus – John 1:14
b. “The beginning” refers to creation (Gen. 1:1)
3. Thus at the creation Jesus already was!
B. IMPORTANT MATTERS RELATED TO HIS PRE-EXISTENCE
1. His Deity
a. John 1:1 – “The Word (i.e. Jesus) was God”-not a god
b. That Jesus already “was” in the beginning, tells us that He is eternal (one of the attributes of Deity)
c. This is not just an academic matter – if Jesus is not eternal Deity, then He is not the “Son of God”
d. John 8:58
1) “I am” (”not I was” or “I have been”) – this is an emphatic present -”I Myself am”
a) This denotes a timeless existence (eternity)
b) Watchtower perverts it to “I have been”
2) Exodus 3:14, this is exactly what God told Moses he should say if Israel asked what God’s name was (”I am that I am” i.e. He is eternal and self-existent)
e. Jesus’ pre-existence proves He is Deity
2. Jesus as Creator
a. “By Him all things were created” (Col 1:16)
1) This agrees with John 1:3 & Hebrews 1:2
2) Watchtower inserts [other] (other things – not all things) into Col. 1:16 twice, plus twice in v.17 & once in v.20!
b. Since Jesus is Creator…
1) He must be eternal, or He couldn’t have been there to do the creating!
2) He must be God (thus eternal), or He would not have the ability to create!
3. Jesus as the Condescending One
a. Not meaning that He humiliated others or looked down on them, but…
b. He humbled Himself, lowered Himself – in doing so He:
1) Emptied Himself (ASV) – Philippians 2:6-8
a) Unless He was pre-existent, He could not have “emptied Himself” to come to this earth in the form of a man. (We do not say of anyone born today that he “emptied himself” before conception)
b) Had equality with God – thus eternal existence.
2) Became poor – 2 Corinthians 8:9
a) Was rich (before incarnation) – cannot be said unless he pre-existed!
b) Rich in the glory of His heavenly being (which He enjoyed eternally before the incarnation)
3) Gave up glory – John 17:5
a) He had this glory with the Father before the world existed (i.e. prior to creation)
b) If He was not pre-existent, then it could not be accurately said that He gave up His glory, nor would it have been sensible for Him to pray for restoration of such glory.
4. Jesus as the Model of Obedience
a. John 6:38
b. Had He not existed prior to conception, He could not have “come down from Heaven” nor could He have been “sent” by the Father.
c. Had He not been perfectly obedient, He couldn’t have been our once-for-all atonement offering.
d. His obedience serves as a model for us – Hebrews 5:8-9
5. Jesus as Mediator
a. We pray TO the Father in the name of Jesus – John 16:23
1) Note: we do not pray TO Jesus (v. 23a, Jesus specifically said “you will ask Me nothing”)
2) We should realize that Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus
a) It was not the Father who gave His body and blood on the cross, it was Jesus – the Father endured the agony of witnessing His Son’s suffering.
b) It is true that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, but they are not one Person – they are distinct personalities and we should refer to them as such.
b. To effectively mediate, Jesus has to be both God and man – and He is – 1 Timothy 2:5
c. To be God (as well as man), Jesus must have existed prior to His incarnation
1) Jesus affirms that He did – John 16:28
2) An understanding of this basic fact is necessary for proper faith and acceptable prayer in His name – John 16:26-27
CONCLUSION:
A. Jesus did not come into being at the virgin conception or the birth in Bethlehem’s stable.
B. He has always been, and always will be.
1. He is eternal Deity.
2. He is our Creator.
3. He emptied Himself, gave up the wealth and glory of Heaven, and took upon Himself a body of human flesh in which He obeyed the Father’s will in absolute perfection.
4. That obedience culminated in His sacrificial death upon the cross.
5. Now He calls us to imitate that obedience by dying to sin and self, and living anew for Him.
6. He ever lives as our mediator to help us accomplish that task.
C. All this is possible because of the Pre-Existence of Christ

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

hmm is there a problem saying that God sent the Son and the Son pre-existed with the Father before creation?:

http://preachersfiles.com/the-pre-existence-of-christ/

DISCUSSION:
A. PROOF OF THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF CHRIST
1. John 1:15
a. “Preferred before me” has to do with rank – i.e. Jesus out-ranked John
b. “He was before me” has to do with time – Jesus existed before John did (yet we know Jesus was not conceived until about six months after John was conceived within Elizabeth) – thus Jesus existed before His conception or birth
2. Jesus has been since before “the beginning” – John 1:1
a. “The Word” refers to Jesus – John 1:14
b. “The beginning” refers to creation (Gen. 1:1)
3. Thus at the creation Jesus already was!
B. IMPORTANT MATTERS RELATED TO HIS PRE-EXISTENCE
1. His Deity
a. John 1:1 – “The Word (i.e. Jesus) was God”-not a god
b. That Jesus already “was” in the beginning, tells us that He is eternal (one of the attributes of Deity)
c. This is not just an academic matter – if Jesus is not eternal Deity, then He is not the “Son of God”
d. John 8:58
1) “I am” (”not I was” or “I have been&#8221 – this is an emphatic present -”I Myself am”
a) This denotes a timeless existence (eternity)
b) Watchtower perverts it to “I have been”
2) Exodus 3:14, this is exactly what God told Moses he should say if Israel asked what God’s name was (”I am that I am” i.e. He is eternal and self-existent)
e. Jesus’ pre-existence proves He is Deity
2. Jesus as Creator
a. “By Him all things were created” (Col 1:16)
1) This agrees with John 1:3 & Hebrews 1:2
2) Watchtower inserts [other] (other things – not all things) into Col. 1:16 twice, plus twice in v.17 & once in v.20!
b. Since Jesus is Creator…
1) He must be eternal, or He couldn’t have been there to do the creating!
2) He must be God (thus eternal), or He would not have the ability to create!
3. Jesus as the Condescending One
a. Not meaning that He humiliated others or looked down on them, but…
b. He humbled Himself, lowered Himself – in doing so He:
1) Emptied Himself (ASV) – Philippians 2:6-8
a) Unless He was pre-existent, He could not have “emptied Himself” to come to this earth in the form of a man. (We do not say of anyone born today that he “emptied himself” before conception)
b) Had equality with God – thus eternal existence.
2) Became poor – 2 Corinthians 8:9
a) Was rich (before incarnation) – cannot be said unless he pre-existed!
b) Rich in the glory of His heavenly being (which He enjoyed eternally before the incarnation)
3) Gave up glory – John 17:5
a) He had this glory with the Father before the world existed (i.e. prior to creation)
b) If He was not pre-existent, then it could not be accurately said that He gave up His glory, nor would it have been sensible for Him to pray for restoration of such glory.
4. Jesus as the Model of Obedience
a. John 6:38
b. Had He not existed prior to conception, He could not have “come down from Heaven” nor could He have been “sent” by the Father.
c. Had He not been perfectly obedient, He couldn’t have been our once-for-all atonement offering.
d. His obedience serves as a model for us – Hebrews 5:8-9
5. Jesus as Mediator
a. We pray TO the Father in the name of Jesus – John 16:23
1) Note: we do not pray TO Jesus (v. 23a, Jesus specifically said “you will ask Me nothing&#8221
2) We should realize that Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus
a) It was not the Father who gave His body and blood on the cross, it was Jesus – the Father endured the agony of witnessing His Son’s suffering.
b) It is true that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, but they are not one Person – they are distinct personalities and we should refer to them as such.
b. To effectively mediate, Jesus has to be both God and man – and He is – 1 Timothy 2:5
c. To be God (as well as man), Jesus must have existed prior to His incarnation
1) Jesus affirms that He did – John 16:28
2) An understanding of this basic fact is necessary for proper faith and acceptable prayer in His name – John 16:26-27
CONCLUSION:
A. Jesus did not come into being at the virgin conception or the birth in Bethlehem’s stable.
B. He has always been, and always will be.
1. He is eternal Deity.
2. He is our Creator.
3. He emptied Himself, gave up the wealth and glory of Heaven, and took upon Himself a body of human flesh in which He obeyed the Father’s will in absolute perfection.
4. That obedience culminated in His sacrificial death upon the cross.
5. Now He calls us to imitate that obedience by dying to sin and self, and living anew for Him.
6. He ever lives as our mediator to help us accomplish that task.
C. All this is possible because of the Pre-Existence of Christ

I agree 'Snail Son is pre-existent and eternal. He just did not have the body of Adamic sinful flesh it is important to grant God's manifestation in flesh as a man, this is the Son, God has appeared in many forms and He has appeared as the Son and He has spoken through the Son, the Son is the ultimate revelation of God the Father, He is the only begotten of the Father but He is also the second Adam, the discernment between Father and Son is the acknowledgement of the humanity of Jesus Christ as the perfect image and representation and nature of the Father, the Son is indeed eternal and has always existed.

 

[Jezreel]

I believe that most trinitarians know who Jesus is. I do not believe the same as United Pentecostals who say that if you are not baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, you will go to hell. All of the Christians that I love and fellowship with right now are trinitarians and we both stand on common ground and they believe like I believe and understand what I am saying. They agree that the confusion comes from the "son of man and the son of God" and he was both. He said, "my father is greater than I' (son of man, that is not coequal) He also said, "the father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works"(son of man, that is not coequal) There are other things that he says that is the son of man. When Jesus said, "I AM" that is the spirit of his Father. In the ressurrection all power was given to him in heaven and in earth and he was with God the whole time even before the creation of the earth. My fleshly understanding has trouble fathoming that, but, my spirit man at times gets a revelation that I cannot even speak in words!! After all, our time is nothihng more that a pencil point dot in the middle of eternity. It would be good if we laid this down and everybody just love each other for the sake of Jesus and give him the glory that he knows it all, we don't and we won't until that day of his coming and his appearing. I am sorry if this has stirred up others to be upset, that is not my intention. I don't know it all either.

 

[watchmen]

comma , "and Jesus Christ". , whom thou hast sent, not "whom thou has become"

God also sent John the baptist to be the forerunner. Does that mean John the baptist somehow pre-existed? NO, it does not.

 

[MahogonySnail]

God also sent John the baptist to be the forerunner. Does that mean John the baptist somehow pre-existed? NO, it does not.

See the scriptures above, many supporting evidence for the pre-existance of Christ. That established, the next question is in what form? I understand that Christ existed as Christ, the Word, who was with the Father, but was not the Father. Here's why:

Jesus Christ Himself said He was with the Father before the world was:

Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus did not say:
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had as You before the world was.

We've all gone to school and studied English, hopefully - it's plain and simple comprehension that Christ was referring to Himself as being with the Father, indicating His separate personage. I simply take what the Word says as written.

John 1:2 says plain and simply, that Christ was with God even in the beginning.

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

As far as I understand, if this was meant to be according to Oneness doctrine it would read:

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning as God.

Now I may not understand bible languages but I think I do know what the the word "with" means. And in fact in the Greek I do believe the word rendered as "with" means "near to" or "by the side of". Clearly meaning that Christ was not the same as the Father before He came to earth.

 

[MahogonySnail]

There are more verses showing Christ was with the Father before coming to earth:
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Joh 8:38IspeakthatwhichIhaveseenwithmyFather:andyedothatwhichye haveseenwithyourfather.


I do believe that the manner in which Christ returned to the Father and is at the Father's right hand side this very moment, is the same manner in which He existed before He was even born -albeit, not in a human body of flesh. He was with God, and was God, but was not the Father because He was with the Father.
John 1:18 says:

(ISV) Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him.

(KJV) Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(Barnes) In the bosom of the Father - This expression is taken from the custom among the Orientals of reclining at their meals. See the notes at Mat_23:6. It denotes intimacy, friendship, affection. Here it means that Jesus had a knowledge of God such as one friend has of another - knowledge of his character, designs, and nature which no other one possesses, and which renders him, therefore, qualified above all others to make him known.

 

[watchmen]

The only thing these scripture prove is that you cannot comprehend the incarnation.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Actually the verses I gave above about Christ being with the Father seem to disprove your views quite well.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Actually the verses I gave above about Christ being with the Father seem to disprove your views quite well.

Logos ; do you know what that means, I will tell you, it means concept, idea, rationale, and what was the concept - the idea - the word? the idea was GOD! How many God's are there? One! Are the Father and Son one? Yes, there is only one God and there is no one besides Him.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I understand that but the thing is, Christ would not have known about the glory He had with the Father before being born, and would not have known what He knew of the Father if Christ had only existed as a thought before He was born.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I understand that but the thing is, Christ would not have known about the glory He had with the Father before being born, and would not have known what He knew of the Father if Christ had only existed as a thought before He was born.

Christ did not exist as a 'thought', Jesus Christ is GOD!

Jesus Christ whom is GOD incarnate - the Lord of Lords was in the beginning, He had an idea and the ratiionale of His idea was that He would be GOD!

 

[MahogonySnail]

That makes some sense there Cup but i might have misunderstood when i thought you said the Word of God which was with God i.e. Christ, was merely a "concept, idea, rationale" as you said in your previous post.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

That makes some sense there Cup but i might have misunderstood when i thought you said the Word of God which was with God i.e. Christ, was merely a "concept, idea, rationale" as you said in your previous post.

'The Logos existed in the beginning'

'The Logos was with God'



Ask yourself how many God's are present in John's statement?


One, OK, just one.

who became flesh? God did, but it also says that the Logos became flesh John 1:14, answer "The Logos was with God" and Rotherham actually translates "The same was with God", it's the same, he is the same, He is one

 

[MahogonySnail]

There's two God's mentioned, God the Father and God the Son. The Son was with the Father and was as much God as the Father. Christ existed with the Father and knew the Father before incarnation, as Christ Himself indicates in His words. Christ never said He was the Father.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

There's two God's mentioned, God the Father and God the Son. The Son was with the Father and was as much God as the Father. Christ existed with the Father and knew the Father before incarnation, as Christ Himself indicates in His words. Christ never said He was the Father.

OK, if you want to believe in two God's, you belive that. I believe in one God - Logos mean rational concept, if you don't understand that, then I can't help you.

 

[Jezreel]

I forgot where it is but there is another scripture to chew on, "God has sent the spirit of his son into our hearts whereas we cry Abba Father"

 

[Definition_Christ]

Jesus being with the Father? But He IS the Father? Eh a bit confusing but I was wondering, from a Oneness perspective why did Jesus say Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? and how do you interpret that?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Jesus being with the Father? But He IS the Father? Eh a bit confusing but I was wondering, from a Oneness perspective why did Jesus say Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? and how do you interpret that?

Well it's interesting that Jesus in Matt. 27:45-47 and all the gospels speaks these words in Aramaic instead of Greek, which was what Jesus and the Apostles spoke as their first language. Most of the Israelites at the time of Jesus and espacially His diciples knew a little Aramaic but they could not really understand it and this is recorded as those around Him present at the cross thought He was calling for Elijah as Elijah in Aramaic is "Elia" which is similar to "Eli" - God. There is no doubt that in certain parts of Judea at the time Aramaic was more well known then others possibly in area where Eastern trade routes were located or there were more eastern merchants as Aramiac was the language of Babylon and Assyria. Because Jesus read from the Greek OT if He had of quoted Pslams He would have used Greek, so it possible that He was not quoting Psalms and because the Gospel writer has kept the Aramaic as an example because it was unusual for Jesus to speak in Aramiac and they found it difficult to translate.

If we study the Assyrian language and Aramaic "Eli, Eli, lmana sabachthani" the Aramaic scholar Lamsa states it has a different meaning; 'for this I was kept' or 'to this I was born', and this is very different.

Either way, I can still understand it, if Jesus did feel forsaken it would be an example of His humanity as men are born forsaken by God as fallen creatures was it neccessary for Jesus to be also forsaken but still believe as He did in order to save us? It's one way of looking at it. Aramaic like all langauges 'evolves' over time and the history of the langauge is nowhere near understood as well as the Greek-Latin-English transliterations.

 

[watchmen]

Jesus being with the Father? But He IS the Father? Eh a bit confusing but I was wondering, from a Oneness perspective why did Jesus say Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? and how do you interpret that?

Did you see the scriptures I gave you that prove Oneness and in doing so dis[prove the trinity? If not here ya go.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Here we see the Son that shall be born will be The mighty God, The everlasting Father (the Father), wonderful counsellor (The Holy Spirit), prince of peace (The Son).

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Here we see the Father speaking through the prophet Zechariah that they would look upon HIM who they will pierce.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
The Lord will have one name not three and that Name is Jesus.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
You see here that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have one name and we know that name is Jesus. (The Apostles baptized their converts in the name of Jesus Christ, not using the trinitarian formula)

John 14
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Jesus in no uncertain terms tells us plainly that he is the Father.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Here is tell us He is the Holy Spirit. I (Jesus) will not leave you comfortless I (The Holy Spirit) will come to you.

John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Here Jesus tells us that the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, if you do not believe that Jesus is God the Father incarnate then you do not believe Jesus is God at all. There is no God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. There is only God the Father, the Son of God, and the Spirit of God who are all one. Paul confirms this in....
1st Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The Trinity is one of those philosophies of men Paul warned us about. The truth is the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Christ bodily not 1/3 of it.


1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
God the Father was manifest in the flesh as the Son just as Isaiah 9:6 said He would be.




From the O.T. to the New there is no doubt that God is one, and that one God is the Father, and the Father is a Spirit (the Holy Spirit) , and that God became a man, and the man He became was the Son not a separate person of some trinity.